Do you still add your level to skills, ac, attacks and saves?


Rules Discussion


Making my first character I remember in the playtest you added your level to skills, ac, attacks and saves. reading through 2nd edition and not finding definitive ruling on that anywhere.


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What you will see in the rulebook a lot is "Proficiency Modifier"

Your proficiency modifier is equal to:

Level +2 if Trained
Level +4 is Expert
Level +6 if Master
Level +8 if Legendary.
0 Otherwise.


It's explained under proficiency in the rules.

Basically, if you are untrained, you do not add your level (your proficiency bonus is +0). Trained gives you a bonus equal to your level +2, expert is level +4, master is level +6, and legendary is level +8.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Is it the same with AC? I was under the impression the book did not give level with proficiency and armor modifier.


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Alenvire wrote:
Is it the same with AC? I was under the impression the book did not give level with proficiency and armor modifier.

It always has since the public playtest began.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Ok, thanks. So to be sure I understand, Level + proficiency + armor mod + dex. So the 10+ from pf1 did not carry over.

A character attacking is level + proficiency + stat + item mod.

Armor seems.... A lot less if thats the numbers.


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No, AC still has a base value of 10. 10 + Proficiency + Armour + DEX + Misc.

Proficiency includes your level if you are trained or greater - 'add your level' isn't a separate step in the process, it's just part of determining your proficiency. So everything that includes proficiency adds your level.


Page 274

Quote:
Armor Class = 10 + Dexterity modifier (up to your armor’s Dex Cap) + proficiency bonus + armor’s item bonus to AC + other bonuses + penalties

Your level is encoded in the proficiency bonus.

So without considering other circumstances and penalties (e.g. flat-footed) a 5th level Champion in +1 Full plate has an AC of 10+0+7+7 = 24 .

The first +7 is from proficiency (2 from trained, and 5 from level) the second is from the item bonus (6 from the full plate, and 1 from the fundamental rune.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Wait, in the back of the book it lists armor out as 10+Dex+Proficiency+armor item bonus+other bonuses+penalties. Not level. Or is proficiency level also?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Page 274

Quote:
Armor Class = 10 + Dexterity modifier (up to your armor’s Dex Cap) + proficiency bonus + armor’s item bonus to AC + other bonuses + penalties

Your level is encoded in the proficiency bonus.

So without considering other circumstances and penalties (e.g. flat-footed) a 5th level Champion in +1 Full plate has an AC of 10+0+7+7 = 24.

Ahhhhh. ok


Alenvire wrote:
Wait, in the back of the book it lists armor out as 10+Dex+Proficiency+armor item bonus+other bonuses+penalties. Not level. Or is proficiency level also?

Proficiency bonus can (but doesn't always) include level.

If you are untrained you have a proficiency bonus of 0.
If you are trained it's level + 2.
If you are expert it's level + 4.
If you are master it's level + 6.
If you are legendary it's level + 8.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:


Your level is encoded in the proficiency bonus.

This also means the gap between using something you're at least trained with and not trained with--whether a skill, armor, or a weapon--will increase as characters level up. Another reminder for PCs to stay in your lane.

That may have always been the case with skills in PF1, but that's a new feature with weapons and armor. So, suppose a 10th level bard gets disarmed of his long sword, can't get it back, and there's a scimitar lying on a nearby table - that scimitar is a no-go. He'll suffer at least a 12-point loss in attack bonus in PF2 compared to 4-points in PF1. And he shouldn't even think about putting on the guard's chainmail if he breaks out of a prison cell, his AC is much better if he's naked.

I bet that trips a few players up for a while.


Bill Dunn wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:


Your level is encoded in the proficiency bonus.

This also means the gap between using something you're at least trained with and not trained with--whether a skill, armor, or a weapon--will increase as characters level up. Another reminder for PCs to stay in your lane.

That may have always been the case with skills in PF1, but that's a new feature with weapons and armor. So, suppose a 10th level bard gets disarmed of his long sword, can't get it back, and there's a scimitar lying on a nearby table - that scimitar is a no-go. He'll suffer at least a 12-point loss in attack bonus in PF2 compared to 4-points in PF1. And he shouldn't even think about putting on the guard's chainmail if he breaks out of a prison cell, his AC is much better if he's naked.

I bet that trips a few players up for a while.

During the playtest, people frequently complained that being untrained in something didn't matter enough, that their barbarians were too good at Arcana, etc. Did you say the opposite on the surveys?


Bill Dunn wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:


Your level is encoded in the proficiency bonus.

This also means the gap between using something you're at least trained with and not trained with--whether a skill, armor, or a weapon--will increase as characters level up. Another reminder for PCs to stay in your lane.

That may have always been the case with skills in PF1, but that's a new feature with weapons and armor. So, suppose a 10th level bard gets disarmed of his long sword, can't get it back, and there's a scimitar lying on a nearby table - that scimitar is a no-go. He'll suffer at least a 12-point loss in attack bonus in PF2 compared to 4-points in PF1. And he shouldn't even think about putting on the guard's chainmail if he breaks out of a prison cell, his AC is much better if he's naked.

I bet that trips a few players up for a while.

In PF1e you just had the issues with not having the same BAB bonus, lower ability score variety and lost stuff like your focus feats :). Oh and that -4.

But seriously in both of these cases it is sensible if a character isn't skilled in fighting with specific weapon types that they shouldn't pick up random weapons. Either grabbing that general feat to become trained in all martial weapons or if you can spare it a fighter dedication is worth considering for a more martial bard imo.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Bill Dunn wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:


Your level is encoded in the proficiency bonus.

This also means the gap between using something you're at least trained with and not trained with--whether a skill, armor, or a weapon--will increase as characters level up. Another reminder for PCs to stay in your lane.

That may have always been the case with skills in PF1, but that's a new feature with weapons and armor. So, suppose a 10th level bard gets disarmed of his long sword, can't get it back, and there's a scimitar lying on a nearby table - that scimitar is a no-go. He'll suffer at least a 12-point loss in attack bonus in PF2 compared to 4-points in PF1. And he shouldn't even think about putting on the guard's chainmail if he breaks out of a prison cell, his AC is much better if he's naked.

I bet that trips a few players up for a while.

PF2 has made it easy enough to wander from your lane. Excluding MC you can always pick up the general feats for the skills/armors/weapons you want. You will never be great with them, but, at least your not untrained. A wizard for example could take feats to be trained in simple/martial/specific uncommon for a +2, or expert +4 for wizard weapons. Same with armor, any armor trained to +2 or expert unarmored for +4. If you look at fighter or champion MC's your on par with your normal progression anyways.

I know there is a big debate thread on armor and weapon feats being useless, but, I disagree. I can use some general feats to get a wizard in full plate wielding a Dwarven war axe for only -2 ac and -2 attack compared to if I stuck with robes and crossbows. And, I could forget about dex going that route and up str a lot more.

I feel like PF2 has opened the doors for cross class options. A fighter MC wizard, and a Wizard MC fighter are both significantly better then a fighter10/wizard10 of pf1.


For the example where a class with limited proficiencies is disarmed (which is really hard now, but w/e) I imagine support for "improvised weapons" will come eventually.

For now, I'm inclined to homebrew a feat like untrained improvisation, which means you add level to attacks with literally anything you pick up (so 2 less than trained).

I imagine feat/archetype support for "you are actually good at beating up people with barstools, fish, novelty lamps, etc." will come down the pipe eventually.

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