Assuming a scaling proficiency homebrew is needed, how should it look?


Homebrew


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The current hot topic on the forums is scaling proficiency and I want to take a stab at some homebrew rule to try and fix the issue. I don't want to make a new thread for discussing if it is a good or a bad idea there are plenty for that. I am starting from the position that a homebrew rule is desirable and trying to figure out exactly what form such a rule should take.

Goals
1. A character who spends a feat to gain weapon or armor proficiency should have their proficiency scale such that it never becomes a blatantly sub-optimal choice to use the thing they spent a feat to get.

2. Because proficiency is a deliberately gated class feature you should not be able to increase your highest armor/weapon proficiency level through feats.

3. Lets fix alchemists, sorcorrers, and iori worshipers while we are at it

4. Try not to mess up anything

5. Be as succinct and clear as possible

Proposed Rules
Whenever a class feature increase your proficiency level with a weapon or with unarmed strikes to expert or higher your proficiency with unarmed strikes and all weapons which became trained via a feat increases to the same level.

Whenever a class feature increase your proficiency level with armor or with unarmored defense to expert or higher your proficiency with unarmored defense and all armors which became trained via a feat increase to the same level.

That fixes a lot of problems with sorcerers and alchemists unarmed strikes but a few things still need cleaned up.

The level 13 weapon expertise ancestry feats are no longer useful and should be removed.

The level 12 Fighter MCA feat Diverse Weapon Expert is no longer useful. I propose it grant critical weapon specialization with all weapons instead.

the level 14 Champion MCA feat Diverse Armor Expert is no longer useful. I propose it grant armor specialization effects instead.

Weapon Proficiency general feat is now really powerful, I think maybe it should be nerfed and split up something like:

Weapon Proficiency (General 1)
You become trained in all simple weapons. If you are already trained in all simple weapons choose one weapon group and you become trained in all martial weapons in that weapon group.

Advanced Weapon Proficiency (General 1)
Prerequisite: Trained in all martial weapons from at least one weapon group.
Choose a weapon group where you are trained with all martial weapons in that group. You become trained with an advanced weapon from that group.

The last thing that I think needs accounted for is the fighter, they gave features which specifically boost a single weapon group so in that case I might add text like this

Fighter Weapon Mastery
add: Weapons which you have become trained in through feats that are not part of the chosen weapon group stay at expert proficiency.

Weapon Legend
add: Weapons which you have become trained in through feats that are not part of the chosen weapon group advance to master proficiency not legendary.

Have I missed anything major here? Is there a better way to make this fix? Is it too OP?


It was mentioned that Monk are a weird case since they can get Legendary in unarmored. So scaling feats might give them Legendary in any armor, albeit at a higher cost than champion, but still.


Temperans wrote:
It was mentioned that Monk are a weird case since they can get Legendary in unarmored. So scaling feats might give them Legendary in any armor, albeit at a higher cost than champion, but still.

That is a weird case. Probably a bit weirder than armored wizard even.

Still I don't see it as an OP option. Legendary in full plate doesn't actually change their total AC since armor is so tightly balanced. They just get to invest boosts differently just like everyone else who uses the general feat with this Homebrew. Plus Monks in armor can't use incredible movement or any stances.

In the bright side it makes an armored wuxia warrior playable right of the bat with some investment without needing to wait for a specific archetype to enable it.


should have riders to limit to master, or be worded so that you only gain proficiency increases at expert and master.

such as

ruffian wrote:
When you gain light armor expertise, you also gain expert proficiency in medium armor, and when you gain light armor mastery, you also gain master proficiency in medium armor.

where it never mentioned legendary.

there should be an unarmed feat that gives you unarmed advancement as if they were simple weapons maybe?

Also, I'd prefer if they were class feats, so I'd like to implement a system where some class feats are available to all classes, and these should more or less only deal with various proficiencies, and should not require a dedication feat.

maybe a change of wording and the creation of new wording. such that you have all "class armor proficiencies" are raised instead of them being listed each time, and then feats instead add certain weapons and armor to these groups for your character.


Bandw2 wrote:

should have riders to limit to master, or be worded so that you only gain proficiency increases at expert and master.

such as

ruffian wrote:
When you gain light armor expertise, you also gain expert proficiency in medium armor, and when you gain light armor mastery, you also gain master proficiency in medium armor.
where it never mentioned legendary.

Rogues never get legendary so talking about legendary wouldn't be necessary for the ruffian in any case. Still as written above the hoebrew rule would let monks get lgendary in armor as mentioned above so that could be an issue which I haven't though to. Champion and Fighter get legendary in everything all at once so it wouldn't change anything for them.

Bandw2 wrote:


there should be an unarmed feat that gives you unarmed advancement as if they were simple weapons maybe?

That might be a simpler way to do it. It would end up being pretty necessary for Alchemists and Sorcerers who want to use mutagen/claws powers.

Bandw2 wrote:


Also, I'd prefer if they were class feats, so I'd like to implement a system where some class feats are available to all classes, and these should more or less only deal with various proficiencies, and should not require a dedication feat.

maybe a change of wording and the creation of new wording. such that you have all "class armor proficiencies" are raised instead of them being listed each time, and then feats instead add certain weapons and armor to these groups for your character.

Yah that's a big one. Universal class feats or something could do it. Replace the general greats with universal class feats which scale.

Ex: Light Armor Proficiency (Class Universal 1)
Add light armor to your class armor list.

something like that?


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I love your solution, except the last part regarding Fighter feats: I didn't understand what it meant at first read, which means that it could probably be simplified a bit.


I would break the whole list of equipment proficiencies down twofold: what you're proficient in (which weapons and which types of armor), and how proficient you are (this being a class derived mechanism). And then have the general feats for armor and weapon proficiency simply add their equipment onto those class lists.

Spoiler:
Advanced weapons might carry a provision saying that class-granted proficiency in them can be a minimum of trained, but must otherwise remain one proficiency step behind. I'm still iffy about where they're broadly supposed to be in terms of expected proficiency.)

So, a Cleric starts out with trained in simple, unarmed, and their deity's favored weapon, as well as unarmored. At 7th or 11th level (depending on doctrine) your weapon proficiency goes up to Expert, and at 13th level, your armor proficiency goes up to Expert. If you're a Warpriest or have otherwise added light and medium armors to your list of armor proficiencies (or even heavy armor), then they automatically go to Expert at 13th, too (meaning that a Cloistered Cleric who took Armor Proficiency in light armor as a general feat has it go up at 13th, just like what a Warpriest in light armor would be doing). This also means that every weapon you're proficient with goes up to Expert, not just your deity's favored weapon. Adding any weapon via any means to your list of weapon proficiencies means they go up at 7th or 11th level as well.

In the case of a Rogue, it would mean that their Weapon Tricks and Master Tricks class features (the ones that increase their weapon proficiencies) would innately improve their use of simple weapons, rapiers, saps, shortbows, and shortswords due to those weapons being on their list of class-granted weapons, not because those class features specifically call them out. Meaning that a Rogue's unarmed attacks also go up to Master at 13th. And meaning that a Rogue that went out of their way to take Weapon Proficiency to use a greatsword is swinging it at Master proficiency, too.


Bardarok wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

should have riders to limit to master, or be worded so that you only gain proficiency increases at expert and master.

such as

ruffian wrote:
When you gain light armor expertise, you also gain expert proficiency in medium armor, and when you gain light armor mastery, you also gain master proficiency in medium armor.
where it never mentioned legendary.

Rogues never get legendary so talking about legendary wouldn't be necessary for the ruffian in any case. Still as written above the hoebrew rule would let monks get lgendary in armor as mentioned above so that could be an issue which I haven't though to. Champion and Fighter get legendary in everything all at once so it wouldn't change anything for them.

Bandw2 wrote:


there should be an unarmed feat that gives you unarmed advancement as if they were simple weapons maybe?

That might be a simpler way to do it. It would end up being pretty necessary for Alchemists and Sorcerers who want to use mutagen/claws powers.

Bandw2 wrote:


Also, I'd prefer if they were class feats, so I'd like to implement a system where some class feats are available to all classes, and these should more or less only deal with various proficiencies, and should not require a dedication feat.

maybe a change of wording and the creation of new wording. such that you have all "class armor proficiencies" are raised instead of them being listed each time, and then feats instead add certain weapons and armor to these groups for your character.

Yah that's a big one. Universal class feats or something could do it. Replace the general greats with universal class feats which scale.

Ex: Light Armor Proficiency (Class Universal 1)
Add light armor to your class armor list.

something like that?

1. the example was just for how it could be worded if you don't want to give someone legendary, ever.

2. i mean, at least a mutagen alchemist already does this

Mutagenist wrote:
Whenever your proficiency rank for simple weapons increases, your proficiency rank for unarmed attacks increases to the same rank unless it’s already better.

the feat should maybe also remove the -2 for dealing lethal damage

3. yeah with abilities in classes going from

Quote:

Medium Armor Expertise 13th

You’ve learned to defend yourself better against attacks. Your proficiency ranks for light armor, medium armor, and unarmored defense increase to expert.

to

Quote:

Armor Expertise 13th

You’ve learned to defend yourself better against attacks. Your proficiency ranks from your class armor Proficiencies(maybe abbreviated as CAP or something, for weapons it's CWP) increase to expert.

Also, I think I would make (since it's a class feat)

Quote:

Armor Training 1

You add light armor and medium armor to your CAP. If light armor is already on your CAP, you instead add medium armor and heavy armor to your CAP.
Special: You may take this feat up to two times.


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Since every non-wizard gets scaling proficiency with simple weapons maybe it would be simpler to just reclassify things like the ancestry feasts and call out the wizard specifically:

Basic Weapon Training
Prerequisite: Not trained with all simple weapons
You become trained in all simple weapons. When you gain weapon expertise at 11th level you also become expert with all simple weapons.

Weapon Proficiency
Prerequisite: Trained in all simple weapons
Benefit: Choose one weapon group, you treat all martial weapons in that group as simple weapons for proficiency. You treat all advanced weapons in that group as martial weapons.

That would help a lot without being too many new rules. It would let everyone get scaling proficiency with martial weapons with enough feat investment but still lock out advanced weapons to martial classes only. Is that better?


wouldn't this let fighters get legendary proficiency with advanced weapons? or at least 1 level higher than intended for that level?

I feel that most racial weapons are uncharacteristically weak, at the very least this would be a must have for sawtooth sabers and what ever becomes advanced weapons later.


Yah that would. Maybe drop the advanced weapon part? Advanced weapons are in a strange place where they are really only useable by the fighter unless you take the ancestory feat. I'd like to change that but maybe not too easily. It's hard with only four published advanced weapons to gauge power.

I guess it's real hard to future proof a Homebrew so maybe best to ignore advanced weapons for now.


that's probably for the best.


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An alternative option is just add some higher level general feats which allow scaling. On the downside it's a feat tree which I don't really like but on the upside it's pretty east to add thees in to the game since it doesn't change any base rules. It still doesn't help the alchemist or sorcerer who wants to use unarmed but I'm kind of thinking those will be errata ed in a more official capacity.

Weapon Advancement (General Feat 11)
Prerequisite: Weapon Proficiency Feat, expert in any kind of weapon or unarmed attack.
Benefit: Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert of greater proficiency in certain weapons or in unarmed attacks you also gain that proficiency with all simple and martial weapons which you become trained in through the weapon proficiency feat.

Armor Advancement (General Feat 11)
Prerequisite: Armor Proficiency Feat, expert in any kind of armor or unarmed defense.
Benefit: Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert of greater proficiency in certain armor or unarmored defense you also gain that proficiency with all armors which you become trained in through the armor proficiency feat.


Bardarok wrote:

An alternative option is just add some higher level general feats which allow scaling. On the downside it's a feat tree which I don't really like but on the upside it's pretty east to add thees in to the game since it doesn't change any base rules. It still doesn't help the alchemist or sorcerer who wants to use unarmed but I'm kind of thinking those will be errata ed in a more official capacity.

Weapon Advancement (General Feat 11)
Prerequisite: Weapon Proficiency Feat, expert in any kind of weapon or unarmed attack.
Benefit: Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert of greater proficiency in certain weapons or in unarmed attacks you also gain that proficiency with all simple and martial weapons which you become trained in through the weapon proficiency feat.

Armor Advancement (General Feat 11)
Prerequisite: Armor Proficiency Feat, expert in any kind of armor or unarmed defense.
Benefit: Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert of greater proficiency in certain armor or unarmored defense you also gain that proficiency with all armors which you become trained in through the armor proficiency feat.

I suggested this on another thread, with a follow up feat that advances proficiencies acquired out of class to Master if your class also advances your in-class proficiency to Master.

This way you can actually become as good at out-of-class proficiencies as in-class most of the time, but avoids the weirdness of monks with legendary heavy armor.

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