Heaven & Hell: Aasimar & Tiefling Ancestries


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I told myself I was going to run Pathfinder 2e straight-up for a bit, and sure enough, failed my Willpower save at earliest convenience. I'm running a game in the old Planescape setting this coming weekend, and wanted to add some handrolled Aasimar and Tiefling NPCs to the mix.

Hence my purchase of Heaven & Hell: Aasimar & Tiefling Ancestries, from Rising Phoenix Games (via DTRPG). About 40 pages, it sets up both of the ancestries pretty much as advertised. I like the various heritages (Angelkin, Lawbringer, Pitborn, and Grimspawn among them.

Haven't had time to really use the pdf just yet or go deep on the various feats and such. From my general read, I'm pretty satisfied with it, even if only as a stop-gap until the official Paizo versions (and even then, good to have options).


Molotov wrote:


Haven't had time to really use the pdf just yet or go deep on the various feats and such. From my general read, I'm pretty satisfied with it, even if only as a stop-gap until the official Paizo versions (and even then, good to have options).

I'm curious about this book as well. Let us know how it plays! When I looked at drivethrurpg there were was a review that was concerned about some of the heritage feats being too powerful.


I downloaded the book yesterday and IMO there are feats that are to over powered. A few examples below:

FIENDISH RESISTANCE FEAT 1
TIEFLING
You have a remarkable adaptation to hot
environments from ancestors who inhabited
the outer planes. This grants fire resistance
equal to half your level (minimum 1), and you
gain horns. These add an extra die to any
unarmed damage rolls that you make.

DMs shouldn't allow players to get the above feat with Adopted Ancestry because IMO gaining horns screams physiological feature.

Another one.

SUPREME SORCERY FEAT 1
TIEFLING
Magic burns within you. Choose one magic
school. Treat all spells from the arcane list with
that school as heightened (+1). For example,
if you cast fireball as an arcane spell, and
you’ve selected evocation as your school, it
does an extra 2d6 points of fire damage.

I am sure there are other powerful feats but the above two are what stands out to me. IMO if I was an unarmed user or a arcane caster I would defensively pick Tiefling. Shield focus users will likely want to go Aasimar or at least adopted ancestry into them.

Silver Crusade

mavbor wrote:

I downloaded the book yesterday and IMO there are feats that are to over powered. A few examples below:

Yeah, those seem over the top to me. Way better than what is in the Core rulebook

Silver Crusade

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Ah so they are just like the Tieflings and Aasimar of yore then :3


Hmm, fair feedback re: those feats. I'll only be using them for NPCs right now, so "safe" ... but definitely something to keep an eye on.

Sovereign Court

Thanks for buying our book and thank you for the feedback. We're putting together an errata file that we'll make available soon.

We're not likely to change Fiendish Resistance at this point, because we feel that the horns only have a real impact for unarmed monks. Of course, you're welcome to cut the horns if you wish.

Supreme Sorcery will be mentioned in the errata, with a rules clarification.


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The horns IMO makes it that the feat can not be obtained via Adopted Ancestry which greatly reduces its OPness. Which is a good thing IMO.

I read on other threads that Aasimar and Tiefling was supposed to be Heritages that other races can get (supposed a dev mentioned it). Is that still planned (like half orcs and half elfs)?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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mavbor wrote:

The horns IMO makes it that the feat can not be obtained via Adopted Ancestry which greatly reduces its OPness. Which is a good thing IMO.

I read on other threads that Aasimar and Tiefling was supposed to be Heritages that other races can get (supposed a dev mentioned it). Is that still planned (like half orcs and half elfs)?

The consensus based on what was announced at GenCon is that the Advanced Players Guide (new classes playtest beginning in October of this year and releasing next November, I believe) will contain these heritages, and that they will be available to multiple different races.


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cartmanbeck wrote:
mavbor wrote:

The horns IMO makes it that the feat can not be obtained via Adopted Ancestry which greatly reduces its OPness. Which is a good thing IMO.

I read on other threads that Aasimar and Tiefling was supposed to be Heritages that other races can get (supposed a dev mentioned it). Is that still planned (like half orcs and half elfs)?

The consensus based on what was announced at GenCon is that the Advanced Players Guide (new classes playtest beginning in October of this year and releasing next November, I believe) will contain these heritages, and that they will be available to multiple different races.

And the idea of aasimars and tieflings as heritages is pretty well confirmed by their Bestiary entries. Any non-human with the "Human" keyword is a safe bet for a heritage rather than an ancestry.


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Fiendish Resistance looks like two pretty good ancestry feats rolled into one... and also doesn't make any sense. I don't get why having horns would make your claws hit harder, nor do I understand how they'd interact with a character that gets horns elsewhere (like an Animal Instinct Barbarian). Seems like it should be its own gore attack similar to the bite that Demonic Sorcerers can get.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Fiendish Resistance looks like two pretty good ancestry feats rolled into one... and also doesn't make any sense. I don't get why having horns would make your claws hit harder, nor do I understand how they'd interact with a character that gets horns elsewhere (like an Animal Instinct Barbarian). Seems like it should be its own gore attack similar to the bite that Demonic Sorcerers can get.

There's actually a heritage in the Core Rulebook that grants a specialized natural weapon unarmed attack: the Razortooth Goblin. So it's not like there isn't precedent for it.


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Ventnor wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Fiendish Resistance looks like two pretty good ancestry feats rolled into one... and also doesn't make any sense. I don't get why having horns would make your claws hit harder, nor do I understand how they'd interact with a character that gets horns elsewhere (like an Animal Instinct Barbarian). Seems like it should be its own gore attack similar to the bite that Demonic Sorcerers can get.
There's actually a heritage in the Core Rulebook that grants a specialized natural weapon unarmed attack: the Razortooth Goblin. So it's not like there isn't precedent for it.

Very much this. It's absolutely overly strong for what it is. Even if it granted resistance and its own attack it would be two Heritages in one. Having it as-is where it's a standard Heritage ability plus an ability that's straight broken for Monks, Animal Barbarians, Draconic/Demonic Sorcerers, and any Monk Multiclass characters (am I missing any?) Is still broken.

It's nice that they are willing to erratta things, but they've said they're unlikely to change this so I feel comfortable saying this:

This kind of thing is exactly why 3pp material has a bad rep.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Fiendish Resistance looks like two pretty good ancestry feats rolled into one... and also doesn't make any sense. I don't get why having horns would make your claws hit harder, nor do I understand how they'd interact with a character that gets horns elsewhere (like an Animal Instinct Barbarian). Seems like it should be its own gore attack similar to the bite that Demonic Sorcerers can get.

Yup. Horns are themselves a heritage and would be handled as a new natural weapon, e.g. the goblin jaws. I think a d6 piercing unarmed brawling group attack with deadly d8 could be a reasonable way to go.

The fire resist is fine but should be bundled with a weaker secondary effect, such as a small number of bonus HP (e.g. +4) at level one, or an exploration/terrain interacting ability like shifting hot environments to seem less bad for the tiefling.

Supreme sorcery I feel also goes massively against the careful balancing of the rest of the system.

Sovereign Court

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The basic Aasimar Heritage trait that stuns an evil outsider for one full ROUND with no save on any melee crit is way, way over the top.

Sovereign Court

mavbor wrote:
The horns IMO makes it that the feat can not be obtained via Adopted Ancestry which greatly reduces its OPness. Which is a good thing IMO.

Sorry, I misunderstood your earlier comment then. Thanks for clarifying.

Sovereign Court

cartmanbeck wrote:
mavbor wrote:

The horns IMO makes it that the feat can not be obtained via Adopted Ancestry which greatly reduces its OPness. Which is a good thing IMO.

I read on other threads that Aasimar and Tiefling was supposed to be Heritages that other races can get (supposed a dev mentioned it). Is that still planned (like half orcs and half elfs)?

The consensus based on what was announced at GenCon is that the Advanced Players Guide (new classes playtest beginning in October of this year and releasing next November, I believe) will contain these heritages, and that they will be available to multiple different races.

Have you seen the errata we put up for Heaven & Hell: Aasimar & Tiefling Ancestries? I'm not sure if it is up on Paizo yet, but it is on Drive Thru RPG. We included the following options, which we'll add to the PDF in the future.

Universal Heritages
The following heritages can be taken by a character of any ancestry, at 1st level.

Aasimar
Either one of your parents was an angelic being, or one or both were aasimar. You have near-perfect features that betray your aasimar heritage. You gain the aasimar trait and low-light vision. In addition, you can select aasimar feats and feats from your ancestry whenever you gain an ancestry feat.

Tiefling
Either one of your parents was a devil, or one or both were tieflings. You have diabolical features, such as horns or cloven hooves that betray your tiefling heritage. You gain the tiefling trait and darkvision. In addition, you can select tiefling feats and feats from your ancestry whenever you gain an ancestry feat.


Ageron wrote:
The basic Aasimar Heritage trait that stuns an evil outsider for one full ROUND with no save on any melee crit is way, way over the top.

Stunned as in the number-less "lose your full turn" or just Stunned 1, as in lose one action?

Sovereign Court

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Edge93 wrote:
Ageron wrote:
The basic Aasimar Heritage trait that stuns an evil outsider for one full ROUND with no save on any melee crit is way, way over the top.
Stunned as in the number-less "lose your full turn" or just Stunned 1, as in lose one action?

Numberless, duration defined. Reads "Stunned for one round." 0-level heritage trait.


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Ageron wrote:
Edge93 wrote:
Ageron wrote:
The basic Aasimar Heritage trait that stuns an evil outsider for one full ROUND with no save on any melee crit is way, way over the top.
Stunned as in the number-less "lose your full turn" or just Stunned 1, as in lose one action?
Numberless, duration defined. Reads "Stunned for one round." 0-level heritage trait.

Geez. I really need to make sure I have people to look over my stuff when I finally get my 3pp content rolling so I don't do this kind of nonsense.


I suspect some of this might be a result of wanting to be first out the door on a product that would have a lot of public demand but has a time limit of one year before Paizo replaces it entirely with the APG. Can't have been a lot of editing and comparing with the power level of the CRB with how quickly it came out...


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Nor do they seem to have looked at the Bestiary, which should have provided some clues even though it does not include any PC options directly.


Hmm a lot of kneejerk reactions. I propose we all look at the current core ancestries. Usually most of the so called "OP" stuff is already in Core.

I If fighting fiends the 1-round stun is great, the times it occurs that is. Still I propose it replace a weapons regular crit effect (flatfooted for example sword etc) assuming you have such ability and does Stun 1. It's situational in that only affects fiends which balance out the lack of sving throw, after it requires a crit (or a massive to hit bonus)


Erk Ander wrote:

Hmm a lot of kneejerk reactions. I propose we all look at the current core ancestries. Usually most of the so called "OP" stuff is already in Core.

I If fighting fiends the 1-round stun is great, the times it occurs that is. Still I propose it replace a weapons regular crit effect (flatfooted for example sword etc) assuming you have such ability and does Stun 1. It's situational in that only affects fiends which balance out the lack of sving throw, after it requires a crit (or a massive to hit bonus)

It's not Stunned 1 (At least from what I was told), it's Stunned. Stunned without a number attached means they lose all of their actions for the listed duration.

The closest comparison to crit specialization effects would be Brawling, which can make a target Slowed 1 for 1 round if they fail a Fort save against your class DC. So Brawling effects anyone but allows a save and only takes 1 action. This Ancestry thing effects fiends only but allows no save and takes all actions.

That's still busted. Just because it's limited in creature type doesn't make up for the ridiculous discrepancy. IMO it would be appropriate to make it Stunned 1 with no save instead of Stunned for 1 round. I don't think anyone would object to that. It drops the save allowed but is type-specific.

NOTE: Okay, the above post is based on two notable misconceptions. First, I somehow misread the original mention of this Aasimar ability and thought it stunned fiends if THEY crit YOU, kinda like how armor of x material sickens y creatures if they crit you. That said, you stunning them if you crit them is probably even more broken.

The second, I misread the quoted post. I thought it was saying that this ability (As I thought it was before I realized my mistake) was fine, and that it should be compared to crit specialization effects as a balance point. Hence why I was comparing to the effects of a similar crit ability.

TL;DR The ability as it is is still absolutely broken IMO, perhaps even more than I thought, and I pretty well agree with the quoted post, dropping it to Stunned 1 would pretty much fix it. Heck, I feel like it'd be fine even if it doesn't override existing crit spec effects. Also I apparently need to stop trying to post at midnight.


Edge93 wrote:
It's not Stunned 1 (At least from what I was told), it's Stunned. Stunned without a number attached means they lose all of their actions for the listed duration.

You didn't get what I meant. I know its Stunned (no save) for 1 round. I proposed it be changed to Stunned 1. My proposal was that it could also replace the usual crit effect that weapons come with. As a further balance point.

Edge93 wrote:

The closest comparison to crit specialization effects would be Brawling, which can make a target Slowed 1 for 1 round if they fail a Fort save against your class DC. So Brawling effects anyone but allows a save and only takes 1 action. This Ancestry thing effects fiends only but allows no save and takes all actions.

That's still busted. Just because it's limited in creature type doesn't make up for the ridiculous discrepancy. IMO it would be appropriate to make it Stunned 1 with no save instead of Stunned for 1 round. I don't think anyone would object to that. It drops the save allowed but is type-specific.

Actually it being limited to creature does in fact partially make up for the power, due to making it conditional. With that said as it is now it need a Fort Save OR it needs to be toned down to Stunned 1. That was my point in the first post. I see we agree on that.

Edge93 wrote:

NOTE: Okay, the above post is based on two notable misconceptions. First, I somehow misread the original mention of this Aasimar ability and thought it stunned fiends if THEY crit YOU, kinda like how armor of x material sickens y creatures if they crit you. That said, you stunning them if you crit them is probably even more broken.

The second, I misread the quoted post. I thought it was saying that this ability (As I thought it was before I realized my mistake) was fine, and that it should be compared to crit specialization effects as a balance point. Hence why I was comparing to the effects of a similar crit ability.

TL;DR The ability as it is is still absolutely broken IMO, perhaps even...

Yeah I realised you got it wrong, maybe I should have been clearer (I was tired yesterday, should have been more orderly in my response). Lets just take it easy with the superlatives. Yes is its very strong if situational and yes it needs some revision but absolutely broken is a strong word.

Either we both agree the ability needs a save (Fort) or be tonned down to Stunned 1. Either works well.

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