Can you use Trick Magic Item feat to prepare a staff if you are not a caster? How many charges does it get? Half level rounded up?
Can you use the feat to prepare a staff if you doesn't have any of its spells on your spell list?
TRICK MAGIC ITEM [A] FEAT 1
Traits: General Manipulate Skill
Prerequisites trained in Arcana, Nature, Occultism, or ReligionYou examine a magic item you normally couldn’t use in an effort to fool it and activate it temporarily. For example, this might allow a fighter to cast a spell from a wand or allow a wizard to cast a spell that’s not on the arcane list using a scroll. You must know what activating the item does, or you can’t attempt to trick it.
Attempt a check using the skill matching the item’s magic tradition, or matching a tradition that has the spell on its list, if you’re trying to cast a spell from the item. The relevant skills are Arcana for arcane, Nature for primal, Occultism for occult, Religion for divine, or any of the four for an item that has the magical trait and not a tradition trait. The GM determines the DC based on the item’s level (possibly adjusted depending on the item or situation).
If you activate a magic item that requires a spell attack roll or spell DC and you don’t have the ability to cast spells of the relevant tradition, use your level as your proficiency bonus and the highest of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifiers. If you’re a master in the appropriate skill for the item’s tradition, you instead use the trained proficiency bonus, and if you’re legendary, you instead use the expert proficiency bonus.
Success For the rest of the current turn, you can spend actions to activate the item as if you could normally use it.
Failure You can’t use the item or try to trick it again this turn, but you can try again on subsequent turns.
Critical Failure You can’t use the item, and you can’t try to trick it again until your next daily preparations.
Preparing a Staff
During your daily preparations, you can prepare a staff to add charges to it for free. When you do so, that staff gains a number of charges equal to the highest level of spell you’re able to cast. You don’t need to expend any spells to add charges in this way. No one can prepare more than one staff per day, nor can a staff be prepared by more than one person per day. If the charges aren’t used within 24 hours, they’re lost, and preparing the staff anew removes any charges previously stored in it. You can prepare a staff only if you have at least one of the staff’s spells on your spell list.
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"gains a number of charges equal to the highest level of spell you’re able to cast" so 1/2 zero. So you could use the cantrips from a staff I guess.
You can activate an item, but I don’t think you can invest one if you don’t meet it’s requirements. So no staves.
"gains a number of charges equal to the highest level of spell you’re able to cast" so 1/2 zero. So you could use the cantrips from a staff I guess.
Yes you can only use the staves cantrips because you are unable to charge it.
Could you trick an already prepared staff?
Success on Trick Magic Item gives you this:
For the rest of the current turn, you can spend actions to activate the item as if you could normally use it.
Also the first paragraph of description mentions using this for spells not on your spell list or if you aren't a spellcaster at all.
Staves do have 'Activate: cast a spell'.
So it all comes down to how the GM interprets the line in Staves:
The person who prepared a staff can expend the charges to cast spells from it.
And whether Trick Magic Item overrides that.
Could you trick an already prepared staff?
No:
A magical staff is an indispensable accessory for an elite spellcaster. A staff is tied to one person during a preparation process, after which the preparer, and only the preparer, can harness the staff to cast a variety of spells throughout the day. The spells that can be cast from a staff are listed in bullet points organized by level under each version of the staff. Many staves can be found in multiple versions, with more powerful versions that contain more spells—such a staff always contains the spells of all lower-level versions, in addition to the spells listed in its own entry. All magical staves have the staff trait.
Including this fixes my interpretation that you able to cast cantrips with tricking it but no the description is clear that only the person who prepared it that's able to "cast a variety of spells" and cantrip still are spells.
Basically you are unable to use Trick a Magic item to make a staff work for you. So try again but with a spellheart.
It's not a specific or general question. The Trick Magic Item allows you to Activate the staves normally but they are unprepared so there's no spells prepared in it even the cantrips.
You are not unable to activate it, you are unable to prepare it!
The curious part is. You can use Trick Magic Item to cast spells from other traditions if you are a caster and already prepared the staff! Like for example a wizard tricking a Staff of Healing!
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I don't think so prepare still different from activate. As I said you still can activate it but there's 0 spells prepared in it.
Allows the Trick Magic Item to use a staff prepared from other players makes sense but I still think it's out of the scope of the skill feat activity. Anyway due the restriction of a caster only able to prepare on one staff per day another party member trick it would be very niche once you are preventing the original caster to use it at same time.
Also I consider this text as flavor part. The mechanics comes after it.
The point that I find strange about this logic of transferring a loaded staff is that this is something that not even the spellcasters themselves can do among themselves.
A spellcaster cannot used the staff to that was chaged by another spellcaster, allowing a character with a Trick Magic Item to do something that not even the native spellcaster of same tradition can is strange to say the least.
The other point is, would the specifics of prepared and spontaneous casters with the staff work like a Trick Magic Item?
Prepared spellcasters can add more charges to the staff while spontaneous spellcasters can use the staff's spells with their spell slots. And how does a char that isn't a caster use the staff that was prepared by a 3rd party? If it was prepared by a caster it will have the double of the charges? But if was prepared by an spontaneous there's no benefit?
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The other point is, would the specifics of prepared and spontaneous casters with the staff work like a Trick Magic Item?
Prepared spellcasters can add more charges to the staff while spontaneous spellcasters can use the staff's spells with their spell slots. And how does a char that isn't a caster use the staff that was prepared by a 3rd party? If it was prepared by a < prepared? > caster it will have the ? But if was prepared by an spontaneous there's no benefit?
Great point, I completely forgot about spontaneous casters and their strange relations with staves.
But why 'double of the charges'?
Because a prepared caster can expend a spell slot to add charges to the staff equal to the level of the slot expended. And usually people will use the highest slot they have.
So you have a prepared caster that can cast 3rd level spells. They get a staff. They prepare it, which gives it 3 charges. The then spend one third level slot to give it 3 more charges. It now has 6 charges. Technically the staff could have between 3 and 6 (because the prepared caster could spend no slots, a 1st level slot, a 2nd level slot or a 3rd level slot), but you get the idea.
EDIT: Forgot to answer the OP. I personally think Trick Magic Item would work in a staff with no charges by letting you cast cantrips. And if they somehow get a hold of a staff with charges, I'd let them spend them too. But without help they won't be able to recharge it.
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To summarize:
It is pretty clear that Trick Magic Item doesn't let you put charges onto a staff during morning preparations. That isn't something that Trick Magic Item even tries to override.
Using the cantrips on a staff is reasonably clear that it would work because nothing in the staff rules prevent Trick Magic Item from working since casting the cantrips doesn't use staff charges.
Casting the Ranked spells from a staff that has charges put there by another character (enemy or ally) is more questionable because the rule for Trick Magic Item says that you can use the item, and the rule specifically about staff charges says that only the character that put the charges there can use the charges.
So are the charges part of the item that Trick Magic Item lets you use, or are they their own thing since they have their own rules for their usage? Ultimately that is a decision that the GM and the table will have to make. I don't think that either ruling is incorrect or imbalanced.
Actually its now looking pretty clear after seeing this discussion and rereading the rules entries.
To use a spell on a staff you activate the staff casting the spell.You expend charges in doing this if your casting anything that's not a cantrip. There are a slew of restrictions.
Trick magic item allows you to bypass all of the restrictions as if you could normally use the item, if you pass the check for that item's spell tradition (generally)
So if a GM were to rule you can activate the staff but cant expend charges as part of the activation it would be a restriction that the GM has decided cannot be bypassed not a restriction Trick magic Item says cannot be bypassed. It would mean the pc cannot actually use the item as normal even though they passed the check.
I see where I fall on this one now.
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So if a GM were to rule you can activate the staff but cant expend charges as part of the activation it would be a restriction that the GM has decided cannot be bypassed not a restriction Trick magic Item says cannot be bypassed. It would mean the pc cannot actually use the item as normal even though they passed the check.
The GM is saying that you can't use Trick Magic Item to use the charges. Not the item. You can use the item just fine - just not the charges.
Which is the same reason why an actual spellcaster of the same tradition can't use the staff charges prepared by someone else either. They can't use the charges. Because the charges aren't inherently part of the item. It is something else. Some sort of link between the item and the character that prepared the staff.
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So if a GM were to rule you can activate the staff but cant expend charges as part of the activation it would be a restriction that the GM has decided cannot be bypassed not a restriction Trick magic Item says cannot be bypassed. It would mean the pc cannot actually use the item as normal even though they passed the check.The GM is saying that you can't use Trick Magic Item to use the charges. Not the item. You can use the item just fine - just not the charges.
Which is the same reason why an actual spellcaster of the same tradition can't use the staff charges prepared by someone else either. They can't use the charges. Because the charges aren't inherently part of the item. It is something else. Some sort of link between the item and the character that prepared the staff.
-The person who prepared the staff can expend charges to cast spells from it.
-You can cast spells from it only if you have them on your spell list-Have to be of the appropriate rank
-have to have enough charges equal to the spells rank
These are the restrictions in the staff entry. Why do I as the GM get to say the first one is not something that gets bypassed by trick magic?
Is it not a restriction to activate the staff just like the others?
I'm not saying that you can't rule it that way. See my post here.
What I am saying is that a GM ruling it the other way - that the charges are not part of the item and the restrictions on who can and can't use charges aren't bypassed by Trick Magic Item - is not some sort of arbirtrary restriction that the GM is just pulling out of thin air for no reason at all other than to ruin fun and shut down something that should work.
Which is what that section of your post that I replied to was sounding like.
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I'm not saying that you can't rule it that way. See my post here.
What I am saying is that a GM ruling it the other way - that the charges are not part of the item and the restrictions on who can and can't use charges aren't bypassed by Trick Magic Item - is not some sort of arbirtrary restriction that the GM is just pulling out of thin air for no reason at all other than to ruin fun and shut down something that should work.
Which is what that section of your post that I replied to was sounding like.
The issue is that is blatantly inconsistent with, at the very least, wands. Which have charges. It's obviously not the idea of TMI draining charges that you have issue with. But the fact that PCs put them there. Or perhaps it's "balance worries."
Deciding that PC (or NPC) fueled charges invalidate Trick Magic Item is arbitrary and as far as I know, has 0 precedent or related idea to point to.
You need some other rule that roughly indicates ~"when a PC creates this thing, other PCs are not allowed to use it, even when they normally could via TMI or similar means." That would help lend credence to the idea that staves are similarly supposed to be excluded.
I am having a hard time seeing the other side to it, I'll admit.
I see what you wrote about it. I will clarify that im not making any judgment on what a GM may or may not have as an intention for the ruling. Just that I have come to a particular stance on what I read and see the other side as overthinking it with the effect of restricting something that I dont see the written rules restricting (not a judgment on intention).
If I could wrap my head around the charges being unrelated to the restrictions on activating the staff then I would say charges couldn't be used at all.
My reasoning is this.
a success for trick magic item lets you activate a magic item for the round as though you normally could use the item. You have to understand the effect you are activating.
If the pc knows they are going to use the staffs charges as part activating the staff for a ranked spell and they know what they are trying to cast then in order for the trick magic item pc to use the staff as normal, the use of charges will be part of that.
With the restrictions in the previous post from the staff section spelled out I just dont see how any of them are not bypassed by an ability that says you can use the item as if you could normally use it.
If the charges are already on the staff and you were the preparer and meet all the other requirements then you could normally use it.
The trick magic item pc is just fooling the staff to allow them to do just that, all of those things that go into normally using it for activation.
I'm not saying that you can't rule it that way. See my post here.
What I am saying is that a GM ruling it the other way - that the charges are not part of the item and the restrictions on who can and can't use charges aren't bypassed by Trick Magic Item - is not some sort of arbirtrary restriction that the GM is just pulling out of thin air for no reason at all other than to ruin fun and shut down something that should work.
Which is what that section of your post that I replied to was sounding like.
The fact that you can see this going either way means you can see ambiguity that I am clearly missing. I am open to the possibility that there is a factor I didn't consider that lends that ambiguity.
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The issue is that is blatantly inconsistent with, at the very least, wands. Which have charges.
PF2 wands don't have charges. They are 1/day use items. They can also be 'overcharged' but that isn't the same as having charges.
With the restrictions in the previous post from the staff section spelled out I just dont see how any of them are not bypassed by an ability that says you can use the item as if you could normally use it.
If the charges are already on the staff and you were the preparer and meet all the other requirements then you could normally use it.
The trick magic item pc is just fooling the staff to allow them to do just that, all of those things that go into normally using it for activation.
I can try spelling it out again if it will help. It comes down to that 'as if you could normally use it' line in Trick Magic Item.
The intent of Trick Magic Item is to bypass restrictions of being a spellcaster for magic items generally.
The examples given in Trick Magic Item (which are non-exclusive, I will fully admit) don't include staves. While that doesn't mean that staves are not included, we can't use their presence on the example list as proof that they are intended to be included fully - because the are not present on the example list.
Generally, magic items are usable by spellcasters who have them. So if I give you a wand that I bought and you are a spellcaster of the same or compatible tradition, then you could use my wand normally. Same with a scroll. Or other magic items.
However, Staves have an additional rule that is not common to other magic items. If I hand you a staff that I prepared, you are probably able to cast the cantrips on it. The requirements for Casting a Spell from a staff: "The person who prepared a staff can expend the charges to cast spells from it. You can Cast a Spell from a staff only if you have that spell on your spell list, are able to cast spells of the appropriate level, and expend a number of charges from the staff equal to the spell’s level." Combined with Casting Cantrips from a staff, which removes the 'expending charges' requirement on its own, means that you as a spellcaster could normally cast the cantrips from my staff.
But you as a spellcaster of the same tradition could not normally cast the Rank spells from a staff that I prepared.
So Trick Magic Item only lets you cast the cantrips from the staff because that is what you could normally cast from my staff. You can't cast the Rank spells that require using my charges from the staff because you couldn't normally use those charges and cast those spells even if you were a spellcaster.
The fact that you can see this going either way means you can see ambiguity that I am clearly missing. I am open to the possibility that there is a factor I didn't consider that lends that ambiguity.
The ambiguity is whether the charges are just a part of the item that is somehow locked or keyed to a particular user but are available for being tricked as part of tricking the item, or if the charges are actually closer to being part of the caster that prepared the staff and that is why they are only usable by that caster and tricking the item isn't going to change that.
You need some other rule that roughly indicates ~"when a PC creates this thing, other PCs are not allowed to use it, even when they normally could via TMI or similar means." That would help lend credence to the idea that staves are similarly supposed to be excluded.
I'm also really curious why you think that:
The person who prepared a staff can expend the charges to cast spells from it.
doesn't qualify as exactly what you are asking for. Is it just because they didn't specifically call out Trick Magic Item by name? Because that isn't how the rules are generally written. As we learned from the Remaster, things can sometimes get renamed. Better to create the rules without hard links to specific things like that other than in an example list.
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Now I see a tangent where you being a caster have actually prepared a staff, but you can't use all of the spells in it because some of them aren't of your tradition. And then you can probably use TMI to cast the remaining spells :)
Yeah, I would accept that scenario too.
OK now I understand why you accept some ambiguity there. Thank you.
I dont ascribe to it though. I think there is a hang up in normally that I dont agree with. This is my thought on the "normally" issue brought up.
What is normal for using a ranked spell on a staff is important when attempting to trick the staff to activate a ranked spell not what is normal for you (activating a staff you didn't prepare is never normal for you) and not what is normal for preparing it (your not trying to prepare it, this was done by someone else).
The reason? You have to know what you are intending to activate for it to even work and you have to be unable to normally do the thing you are attempting.
You cannot normally use the charges on a staff you didn't prepare as part of activation. Check
You know you are attempting to cast a specific ranked spell from the staff. Check
You are correct, the use of "charges" as a term is extremely scarce, and does not appear in Wands aside from "overcharge," which is not at all comparable.
However, the point is intact. There is no TMI clause about charges, nor is there a rule in Staves that preemptively trumps TMI. Staves are abnormal magic items in their use of Caster-fueled charges, yes.
For that to matter, that abnormality needs to be tied into some rule. Which it does not appear to be.
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The argument against staff-slot-use still boils down to "my interpretation of intent trumps the RaW"
It's a rather straightforwardly danger-zone no-go argument without serious contextual support. If that kind of argument was allowed, following that logic elsewhere would cause the rule-system to collapse.
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It is essential to identify and isolate personal RaI takes from actual RaW text.
As soon as you start with a "no it shouldn't, because" and go looking for reasons why not, instead of actually just trying to find out what the text says, you've already rendered the possibility of updating understanding to be rather remote.
That's why time is wasted on irrelevant tangents like staff charges, or how arbitrary compromises like "Sure I'll allow cantrip use, but not charge use"
Like, **that** take immediately has me throwing a ??? face.
It's fine to houserule whatever you want, but, dude. That's so obviously a "because I think so" personal ruling, and not any actual rule-reading. It's why I said you would need crazy compelling contextual evidence from some similar set of rules elsewhere in the system.
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TMI staff-slot-use is about as picture perfect a time to put "specific trumps general" into practice to evaluate a novel question as it gets.
Staves have their rules, then TMI specifically trumps them. Wands have their rules, then TMI specifically trumps them. Scrolls have their rules, then TMI specifically trumps them.
There's so many great parallel examples to draw from, it makes it a perfect practice exercise or case-study.
Casting from a staff has the one extra rule / condition in comparison to wands & scrolls.
The person who prepared a staff can expend the charges to cast spells from it. You can Cast a Spell from a staff only if you have that spell on your spell list, are able to cast spells of the appropriate level, and expend a number of charges from the staff equal to the spell’s level. Casting a Spell from a staff requires holding the staff (typically in one hand) and Activating the staff by Casting the Spell, which takes the spell’s normal number of actions.
A wand contains a spell that can be cast once per day. Casting a spell from a wand requires holding the wand in one hand and activating the item with a Cast a Spell activity using the normal number of actions for the spell.
To cast a spell from a wand, it must be on your spell list. Because you’re the one casting the spell, use your spell attack roll and spell DC. The spell is of your tradition.
Like, the Staff wording on "only if you have that spell on your spell list" is a lot stronger than the bit on charges, yet there is no debate about TMI trumping that clause.
If you have actual textual reasons to present as to why the charge mechanic overrules TMI, that is what would help your case here.
But the idea that TMI can't access the charges, despite being a cast a spell activation, is as "baseless" a ruling as I've seen.
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I agree on the "TMI is limited to activation, therefore, no TMI to charge staves."
Another supporting "nope" for TMI charging staves is that the time scale of TMI is a single round. While daily prep is rather undefined, thankfully there's at least that bit on a 30min daily prep being normal, so it's rather solidly not doable from that angle as well.
TMI staff-slot-use is about as picture perfect a time to put "specific trumps general" into practice to evaluate a novel question as it gets.
Staves have their rules, then TMI specifically trumps them. Wands have their rules, then TMI specifically trumps them. Scrolls have their rules, then TMI specifically trumps them.
That is one take on it, yes. But that is a personal ruling of which of them is more specific than the other.
Alternatively:
Magic Items have general rules for how all Magic Items are used and who can use them.
TMI has specific rules that override the general rules for Magic Items.
Staves have very specific rules regarding charges that are not part of the general Magic Item usage rules.
So TMI is only more specific than the general Magic Item activation rules and doesn't override the even more specific rules for Staff charges.
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I don't think TMI cares what the rules are to activate a specific magic item since it doesn't reference any specific activation rules. It just allows you to activate the item as if you normally could do so (whatever normal is for that the activation of that item). The caveat is knowing what you are activating/how it works so you can fool it.
I don't think TMI cares what the rules are to activate a specific magic item since it doesn't reference any specific activation rules. It just allows you to activate the item as if you normally could do so (whatever normal is for that the activation of that item). The caveat is knowing what you are activating/how it works so you can fool it.
;-)
And the normal activation process of a staff is that you have to have been the one to put the charges on the staff in order to use those charges.
That is one take on it, yes. But that is a personal ruling of which of them is more specific than the other.
Not really, no.
It is kinda necessary to accept that RaW can have an objective, no-opinion, "ruling." As long as that can be taken for fact, an ongoing exploration can eventually get there.
This is why mixing / confusing personal RaI is so problematic for trying to figure out the actual RaW.
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As far as has been presented here, there is no way to allow TMI to function as an override for conditions like spell list, spell casing ability, ect, while excluding it from using staff charges.
The notion of using TMI as a specific override for some, but then switching back to Staff for a single condition, is just flat out not right. That's not how the concept of specific trumps general works.
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Each time you try to wiggle, you state something just a little not true
Magic Items have general rules for how all Magic Items are used and who can use them.
TMI has specific rules that override the general rules for Magic Items.
Staves have very specific rules regarding charges that are not part of the general Magic Item usage rules.
There is no textual reason that Staff gets to trump TMI, but TMI gets to trump Wand and Scroll.
The reason the charge mechanic would be able to trump TMI is if it was specifically stated to. That text does not exist. Therefore, it does not trump TMI.
The expenditure of charges is in the same "rules for use" on staves as spell list, ect. It's not in some separate section with "even when using means to bypass Activation limitations, ____" type wording.
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TMI gives a specific override to cast a spell activations.
Even with the additional wrinkle of consuming charges, Staff-slot use is a cast a spell activation.
While novel, this is as simple and narrow a case as could be asked for.
I can only say "until / unless other text is found", but with that caveat, it's not an opinion.
With the input of the discussed text, the RaW is very clear that TMI would work to trick a staff and use its charges. The logic fueling any ruling to the opposite could be applied to deny other cast a spell activations, like wand overcharging, or even just raw scroll use. That take is just incompatible / does not compute.
The reason the charge mechanic would be able to trump TMI is if it was specifically stated to. That text does not exist. Therefore, it does not trump TMI.
I don't feel like typing out a repetition of my previous post, so I'll just link to it here.
In any case, saying the same thing again doesn't make something more true or more believable the second or third time around. At best if phrased differently or better it can be more understandable if repeated.
Why would TMI be allowed to use the unique mechanic of wand overcharging, but be denied the staff mechanic of slot-casting ?
What rule governs that?
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Is staff-slot-casting a cast a spell activate, or is it not?
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Why would TMI be allowed to use the unique mechanic of wand overcharging, but be denied the staff mechanic of slot-casting ?
Because overcharging a wand is the normal usage of the wand. Just like using the 1/day standard usage of the wand is the normal usage of the wand.
Just like casting a spell from a scroll is the normal usage of the scroll.
The normal usage of a staff includes not being allowed to use the charges that you didn't put there. You mentioned yourself that the restriction is right there in the normal staff usage rules.
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Using charges to cast ranked spells is normal usage of a staff.
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Using charges to cast ranked spells is normal usage of a staff.
Yes. For the spellcaster that put those charges there.
Another way to say my thought on it - using an item 'normally' is not always the same as using the item 'successfully'. If the normal usage still restricts you personally from using it, then it isn't going to work.
If an arcane sorcerer has a wand and a wizard gets their hands on it, the wizard can use the wand normally. And successfully.
If an arcane sorcerer has a scroll and a wizard gets their hands on it, the wizard can use the scroll normally. And successfully.
If an arcane sorcerer prepares a staff and a wizard gets their hands on it, the wizard can use the staff normally. Which doesn't include successfully using the charges that the sorcerer put there.
Trick Magic Item doesn't change any of that. You can still only use the magic item normally.
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Using charges to cast ranked spells is normal usage of a staff.Yes. For the spellcaster that put those charges there.
Another way to say my thought on it - using an item 'normally' is not always the same as using the item 'successfully'. If the normal usage still restricts you personally from using it, then it isn't going to work.
If an arcane sorcerer has a wand and a wizard gets their hands on it, the wizard can use the wand normally. And successfully.
If an arcane sorcerer has a scroll and a wizard gets their hands on it, the wizard can use the scroll normally. And successfully.
If an arcane sorcerer prepares a staff and a wizard gets their hands on it, the wizard can use the staff normally. Which doesn't include successfully using the charges that the sorcerer put there.Trick Magic Item doesn't change any of that. You can still only use the magic item normally.
I think that last one is where we disagree.
Its not what any unrelated caster could normally do that matters or what you could normally do with the staff that matters. The only thing that matters is what is normal for a successful use of casting the ranked spell from a staff by activating it. Whatever that is the TMI pc tricks the staff into allowing it.Edit: What you can normally do actually does matter. The first condition to use TMI is you can't normally activate the magic item. Not being the preparer you cant normally activate the staff for ranked spells so that condition is met.
The disconnect seems to be that a mechanic is somehow removing it from your normal.
The way the text is written, you have the list of conditions to use, then the cast a spell activation.
The consuming of charges is in the same list. There's no getting around that. As far as the rules are written, it's in the same grouping, with the same priority.
The staff rules would need something like "even when using means to bypass normal activation..." in order to trump TMI.
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Wand overcharge is a good comparison point here.
"overcharging" a wand is a wand-unique thing, and rare to do. Yet that is "normal" use.
There's just no way to look at "TMI allows wand overcharge" but also get to "but TMI does not allow staff slot casting". The rules have to be changing / being applied unequally to do that.
There's no "special property" of charges that trumps TMI unless the text says so. And it has not.
Anyway I still think that this interpretation that you can use TMI to use a staff charged by another char falls into TGTBT (Too Good To Be True).
I understand the logic of this interpretation that you are tricking the staff to "think" that you are its original charger but it's too strange and a bit exploit to allow TMI as the only way to allow the usage of a staff charged by others.
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
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Anyway I still think that this interpretation that you can use TMI to use a staff charged by another char falls into TGTBT (Too Good To Be True).
I understand the logic of this interpretation that you are tricking the staff to "think" that you are its original charger but it's too strange and a bit exploit to allow TMI as the only way to allow the usage of a staff charged by others.
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
Why would it be "too good to be true" though? It's really no different from someone with TMI having a bunch of scrolls, but with the added drawback of relying on someone else to charge the staff for you. You still need the TMI checks, your DC or spell attack roll is still going to be horrendous and so on and so forth.
There's no advantage here I can see if the wizard (or sorcerer, or whoever) wants to charge a staff and give it to their rogue (or fighter, or whatever) buddy. It's not like they can charge multiple staves during daily preparations.
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Using charges to cast ranked spells is normal usage of a staff.Another way to say my thought on it - using an item 'normally' is not always the same as using the item 'successfully'. If the normal usage still restricts you personally from using it, then it isn't going to work.
Trick Magic Item doesn't change any of that. You can still only use the magic item normally.
I wanted to add that I see what you mean here at least. The position is that there are ways in which use of a staff is not normal use and thus these restrictions are not ones TMI considers or can bypass.
If there are different buckets restrictions can be put in then you are right.
My take is that there are no different buckets for restrictions. To use the item normally includes all of its uses even the ones that take charges and require the preparer.
Anyway I still think that this interpretation that you can use TMI to use a staff charged by another char falls into TGTBT (Too Good To Be True).
I understand the logic of this interpretation that you are tricking the staff to "think" that you are its original charger but it's too strange and a bit exploit to allow TMI as the only way to allow the usage of a staff charged by others.
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.Why would it be "too good to be true" though? It's really no different from someone with TMI having a bunch of scrolls, but with the added drawback of relying on someone else to charge the staff for you. You still need the TMI checks, your DC or spell attack roll is still going to be horrendous and so on and so forth.
There's no advantage here I can see if the wizard (or sorcerer, or whoever) wants to charge a staff and give it to their rogue (or fighter, or whatever) buddy. It's not like they can charge multiple staves during daily preparations.
Because this doesn't exist outside the TMI usage. In a party with a druid and a cleric for example the druid cannot charge a Staff of Healing and give it to Cleric to cast (and vice versa) no matter if both are able to use the spells in the staff the charges are untransferable even between casters.
So why TMI that's an unorthodox usage of a magic item would break a restriction that even the most legendary spellcasters cannot? TMI is an workaround to allow non-casters or casters of different tradition of the item spell to able to cast spells from items at cost of one extra action and a skill check with a reduced spell DC. Makes little sense that such thing is specially is able to break the main staff restriction that's untransferable charges.It is a rule that's is being "interpreted multiple ways" and this version that allows to use the charges of the other is looking "too good to be true". So honestly IMO it "probably is".
As long as you can evaluate the RaW separately from any worries about too good to be true, that's fine.
I do share the opinion that, especially with the extra action cost, TMI to cast staff slots is not at all a threat to balance.
Honestly, the situation I see this most happening is when the PC who prepared the staff is rendered unable to use it, and the party really, really needs to cast one of those slotted spells. Possibly due to caster actively dying; maybe with an odd wrinkle such as up on a ledge so can't quickly move to medkit-slap them, or there's a damage over time effect that the staff could ameliorate.
Or perhaps the disabled PC is hit with a curse such as Feeblemind, and there's a Remove Curse or Dispel Magic inside that staff.
In theory, a high-ish Lvl caster could hand off a staff w/ evergreen R1 spells to be used repeatedly, like Sure Strike or Bless, which would also keep the DC of the TMI check low. In practice though, the benefit of 5-ish casts from that one prepped staff really just does not make up for the extra action cost each use. And on top of that, Staves are rather big & bulky.