How does the Ranger feat Monster Hunter work in encounters with multiple creatures of the same type?


Rules Discussion


Quote:

Monster Hunter Feat 1

Ranger

You swiftly assess your prey and apply what you know.

As part of the action used to Hunt your Prey, you can attempt a check to Recall Knowledge about your prey.

When you critically succeed at identifying your hunted prey with Recall Knowledge, you note a weakness in the creature’s defenses. You and allies you tell gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack roll against that prey. You can give bonuses from Monster Hunter only once per day against a particular creature.

Hypothetically, let's say a party is in an encounter against group of goblins. The party's Ranger uses Hunt Prey against a goblin and has a critical success on the Recall Knowledge roll as part of the action. A round passes and the party is able to use the bonus from Monster Hunter to take down the goblin. When it is the Ranger's turn again, they use Hunt Prey against a new goblin target and then.... what? As written, I feel it implies that the Ranger needs to do a roll every round again to try and recall again what goblins are weak to which doesn't make much sense to me. The only other way I could think to interpret it is to have that bonus previous Recall Knowledge roll carry over to the new Hunt Prey targets if they are the same type of creature, but I feel like that interpretation might make it too strong. How do you all think this should be interpreted?

Grand Lodge

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Mechanically it reads like it’s per creature/prey so you have to make each time even against different creatures of the same type.

Flavor wise, maybe you’re not identifying just based on ancestry but even more detail than that (represented by it needing to be a Critical success rather than normal)

So less of ‘Goblins are scared of howling creatures’ and more ‘That goblin has feathers in their armor, it means they fight like a berserker and swing wildly’.

Just a thought/justification.


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Peat wrote:

Mechanically it reads like it’s per creature/prey so you have to make each time even against different creatures of the same type.

Flavor wise, maybe you’re not identifying just based on ancestry but even more detail than that (represented by it needing to be a Critical success rather than normal)

So less of ‘Goblins are scared of howling creatures’ and more ‘That goblin has feathers in their armor, it means they fight like a berserker and swing wildly’.

Just a thought/justification.

That's a good way of approaching it, I think. At least when doing per enemy, there's the potential for a better roll next time when rolling a failure rather than being stuck with that roll for the entire encounter.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My immediate thought was "The goblin is favoring his right leg, aim accordingly"


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Yeah, I read it as targetting info vs that specific creature.
Of course, you ALSO get the normal benefits of Recall Knowledge,
which should be just as relevant vs other creatures of the same type.
But the SPECIFIC bonus is to hit that one creature, noticing it's limp etc
the fact it's using same Recall Knowledge check with same DC doesn't make it apply vs. all creatures.


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Quote:
As written, I feel it implies that the Ranger needs to do a roll every round again to try and recall again what goblins are weak to which doesn't make much sense to me. The only other way I could think to interpret it is to have that bonus previous Recall Knowledge roll carry over to the new Hunt Prey targets if they are the same type of creature, but I feel like that interpretation might make it too strong. How do you all think this should be interpreted?

I think it's important to separate the two mechanics at work:

1. Recall Knowledge. This allows you to identify what type of creature you are facing and the characteristics of its type:

Recall Knowledge wrote:
To remember useful information on a topic, you can attempt to Recall Knowledge.

2. Monster Hunter. This conveys a bonus against a particular creature for a Crit success on RK.

Monster Hunter wrote:
When you critically succeed at identifying your hunted prey with Recall Knowledge, you note a weakness in the creature’s defenses.

As WatersLethe suggests, Monster Hunter allows you to get "weakness" information about your Prey. Not about the creature type in general.

To answer your question, every time you designate a creature with Hunt Prey, you can roll a RK check to see if you see something about THAT creature that you can exploit. As it states:

Monster Hunter wrote:
You swiftly assess your prey and apply what you know.

So Monster Hunter is simply allowing you to get a secondary use from RK.

But there are some situations which Paizo needs to FAQ

1. What happens if you succeed on one goblin and fail on the other? With regards to Monster Hunter, you don't get any carryover benefit. You need a Crit Success against every creature to see that "weakness."

With regards to Recall Knowledge, it's not spelled out (and it wasn't spelled out in PF1 either). Let's ignore Monster Hunter and ask what happens when you encounter a mixed party of goblins and orcs? Does the GM require you to roll separately for each goblin? Most GMs say no because they know the more you roll, the more likely you will succeed. So they typically want to stop players from rolling more than once per creature type. Also, it can slow the game down if you encounter 10 orcs and got to roll against every one. But this creates a problem. Monster Hunter allows you to roll per Prey, so that means if you get a success, then you should correctly identify the creature if you haven't previously.

2. What happens if you fail your RK check against the 1st goblin and succeed against the second?

For Monster Hunter you should get the bonus per RAW if its a crit.

For Recall Knowledge, it's not clear. The ability says "you apply what you know." This implies you realize it's a goblin and assess it accordingly. But does the regular success still allow you to identify the creature after having failed on a different one?

My take on the above?

1. Hunt Prey + Monster Hunter means you get a Recall Knowlege check against every Prey and the full benefits of both if you succeed, whenever you succeed. After the first success vs the creature's type, you identify all creatures of that type in a group, but you don't' get any additional information for successes when using MH, only the MH benefit.

So the first Recall Knowledge success tells you all that you're ever going to know about that group of creatures, even if it is not a MH success. You roll RK every Prey and that means you might successfully figure out what the creature type is.

If you disallow the player to later gain the knowledge from a Hunt Prey triggered Monster Hunter success, then you're some how getting a Monster Hunter success without knowing what you're attacking, which contradicts what the feat says.

But Paizo needs to spell this out.


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Wow, giving your allies +1 to hit once and only once that doesn't stack with other buffs and only works if you crit the roll seems really bad for a feat.

If it worked every time even without a check I'm still not sure I'd take it.


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swoosh wrote:

Wow, giving your allies +1 to hit once and only once that doesn't stack with other buffs and only works if you crit the roll seems really bad for a feat.

If it worked every time even without a check I'm still not sure I'd take it.

Yes. Welcome to the Ranger. Let me point out that it only works on creatures that you have a trained Skill for. So if you don't have Arcana, Occult, and Religion, you can't identify creatures in those categories,

Also consider that it's Nature based skill, so if you go low Wisdom, you might not even have a chance to hit a Crit Success on many creatures.

However, it looks like a feat tax for Master Monster Hunter. MMH let's you use Nature for ALL creature types (even if not your Prey)) and lets you apply MH and MW on a Success...not just a Crit. So if you stack Monster Hunter, Monster Warden, and MMH, you're getting a decent chance to start every fight with identifying your Prey for free and a bunch of +1 bonuses for the first round of combat.

I think the recommendation during the Playtest is to retrain into Monster Hunter and Warden before MMH because getting the ability to identify all creatures with Nature is kind of nifty...I think.


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N N 959 wrote:
Quote:
As written, I feel it implies that the Ranger needs to do a roll every round again to try and recall again what goblins are weak to which doesn't make much sense to me. The only other way I could think to interpret it is to have that bonus previous Recall Knowledge roll carry over to the new Hunt Prey targets if they are the same type of creature, but I feel like that interpretation might make it too strong. How do you all think this should be interpreted?

I think it's important to separate the two mechanics at work:

1. Recall Knowledge. This allows you to identify what type of creature you are facing and the characteristics of its type:

Recall Knowledge wrote:
To remember useful information on a topic, you can attempt to Recall Knowledge.

2. Monster Hunter. This conveys a bonus against a particular creature for a Crit success on RK.

Monster Hunter wrote:
When you critically succeed at identifying your hunted prey with Recall Knowledge, you note a weakness in the creature’s defenses.

As WatersLethe suggests, Monster Hunter allows you to get "weakness" information about your Prey. Not about the creature type in general.

To answer your question, every time you designate a creature with Hunt Prey, you can roll a RK check to see if you see something about THAT creature that you can exploit. As it states:

Monster Hunter wrote:
You swiftly assess your prey and apply what you know.

So Monster Hunter is simply allowing you to get a secondary use from RK.

But there are some situations which Paizo needs to FAQ

1. What happens if you succeed on one goblin and fail on the other? With regards to Monster Hunter, you don't get any carryover benefit. You need a Crit Success against every creature to see that "weakness."

With regards to Recall Knowledge, it's not spelled out (and it wasn't spelled out in PF1 either). Let's ignore Monster Hunter and ask what happens when you encounter a mixed party of goblins and orcs? Does...

Great posts in this thread. Very helpful. I agree I'd like to ask Paizo to post some FAQs for this one to help clarify. Often, PF 2E rules are simply written too vaguely. I like the ideas behind the new PF 2E ranger but some things seem too weak or of little use and need improvement. I loved the PF 1E ranger, though I understand PF 2E is a "rethink" not only of rules but of overall class concepts, and it really is a totally different game now. I still prefer PF 1E, but 2E is also fun.


I don't really think the rules are written vaguely in this case. Monster Hunter works as written: you roll a check and get relevant bonuses for each individual Prey you Hunt.

Whether that makes sense from a flavor standpoint and is mechanically desirable is another matter. But the flavor works if you think about as examining an individual for a limp rather than a weakness all trolls have. And the good part of the feat is the free action to recall knowledge, not the low chance of the bonus. It is a fine feat for rangers who don't want to use a pet, crossbow, longbow, or dual weapons. I'd have a hard time going for it otherwise, I'll admit, and Warden isn't worth it. But Master Monster Hunter is super good IMO.


Right, whether it's that individual having a limp, or knowing about a bad tactical habit SOME but not all goblins have, or recognizing the flaw in that particular goblin's application of standard goblin combat technique, it's easy to come up with specific "fluff" rationales. The fact a single skill can recognize universal traits within species doesn't mean all creatures are the exact same in every other way, even if it's "convenient" to assume such a reductionist perspective.

Fundamentally, it's all about efficiency with ranger abilities. Since Rangers already want to use Hunt Prey anyways, any bonus effect they can get on top of that is great. The attack bonus on Crit is really just gravy, the reliable benefit of the feat is normal effect of Recall Knowledge... which CAN be shared with allies, and which applies to any other enemies of same type. When Ranger makes that check for free, their allies who might have relevant Knowledge skill don't have to waste action on making check... or making do without the benefit of Recall Knowledge info. Ranger having high Perception/Init also tends to make them ideal candidate to use Recall Knowledge (to "inform" highest % of party actions). Outwit Rangers easily match (or by mid-game exceed) INT/WIS Casters at these checks (more reliably gaining Monster Hunter attack bonus as well as extra info from Recall Knowledge Crit), but even without exceeding full Casters' modifier the fact of doing it "for free" (action) is great benefit.

On Monster Warden and Master Monster Hunter, I think it's noteworthy that the latter doesn't require the former, specifically allowing you to ignore former if you prefer. Actually there is a bevy of Feats which key off of Hunt Prey action yet don't require Monster Hunter... in totality they add alot of value for that action you would already spend anways, your choice of Feats just determines how much value you get from that action.

I think some people could find Monster Warden valuable though, especially Outwit Rangers who will Crit alot more (and have already given up on maximal direct offense, having more of martial support role). If your party otherwise lacks in AC Circumstance bonuses, has limited healing capabilities or even just low max HPs (making any AC increases more valuable/critical to them), then I could see it's attraction. It can even be seen as an action economy boost for party, reducing necessity to Raise Shield for Circumstance bonus (both if they still wear shield for better benefit when they CAN easily spare an action, or facilitating choice to not use Shield at all), which improves tactical flexibility alot. Also it means if a Shield or Shield spell is "broken" there is still a +1 Circumstance bonus "backup" (that doesn't require action to Raise/Recast).


Another factor of the attack bonus that I feel is underappreciated, it is a Circumstance bonus. Circumstance bonuses are not nearly as plentiful in the game as either item or status bonuses, so having the ability to get one, even if only rarely, can be very nice.

Stack that with the free recall knowledge on something you were already going to do and you get a pretty solid 2nd level class feat in my opinion. I wouldn't take it over either of the flurries or an Animal Companion, but squeezing it in at 2nd is very doable.


My issue with Monster Warden is that it doesn't do anything in addition to the critical success effect. Even on an outwit ranger, I feel like it needs a little more. That said, it becomes great once Master Monster Hunter comes into play, so retraining is a good idea.

One other not so obvious benefit of Monster Hunter: after successfully identifying a monster, you can attempt another check at a harder DC to learn more. So if you fight a bunch of the same creature you might wind up learning an awful lot indeed.


Captain Morgan wrote:

My issue with Monster Warden is that it doesn't do anything in addition to the critical success effect. Even on an outwit ranger, I feel like it needs a little more. That said, it becomes great once Master Monster Hunter comes into play, so retraining is a good idea.

One other not so obvious benefit of Monster Hunter: after successfully identifying a monster, you can attempt another check at a harder DC to learn more. So if you fight a bunch of the same creature you might wind up learning an awful lot indeed.

True, but at the expense of not gaining that circumstance bonus. This presents the player with an interesting choice to make honestly. I enjoy mechanics that challenge a player to decide between a shot at an advantage in the short term or a shot at a long term advantage. Learning more details about a critter can be immensely important after all, but may not be immediately useful like a 5% increased chance to hit.

Monster Warden I agree with you on though. I'm not a fan of it even with Master Monster Hunter. Though I suppose a bonus to your AC and to your next save against that monsters next attack can be seen as a nice stacking buff, it isn't nearly as reliable and the feat doesn't do anything else. If it maybe had some other function I could see it being more useful.


The other thing MMH does is allow using Nature (WIS) for all checks, allowing to use single maxed skill keyed off more useful stat (very likely you didn't have above Trained in other Knowledge skills, and after gaining MMH you can Retrain those into other non-Knowledge skills). Atop skill/stat consolidation, working on normal Success is ALOT more reliable than Crits which need 10+ or Nat20, so combining with MW to reliably buff yours AND allies attacks and AC is especially nice IMHO (and I presume why CM said he liked retraining into MW after gaing MMH).

I'm not sure if Double Prey (@12) should allow two Recall Knowledge checks, or whether that would be impacted by the two preys being same or different creature types. If it does work, that allows alot more reliability (including applying VS more attack rolls), as well as saving action economy.

Outwit does already gain circumstance AC bonus vs Prey that exceeds even Legendary Monster Hunter bonus by the time you can take that (actually 1 level later, but always beating MW before LMH), so for Outwit Rangers the AC bonus from MW is really only valuable for their allies (with MMH), although the Save bonus from MW does help them personally...


beowulf99 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

My issue with Monster Warden is that it doesn't do anything in addition to the critical success effect. Even on an outwit ranger, I feel like it needs a little more. That said, it becomes great once Master Monster Hunter comes into play, so retraining is a good idea.

One other not so obvious benefit of Monster Hunter: after successfully identifying a monster, you can attempt another check at a harder DC to learn more. So if you fight a bunch of the same creature you might wind up learning an awful lot indeed.

True, but at the expense of not gaining that circumstance bonus. This presents the player with an interesting choice to make honestly. I enjoy mechanics that challenge a player to decide between a shot at an advantage in the short term or a shot at a long term advantage. Learning more details about a critter can be immensely important after all, but may not be immediately useful like a 5% increased chance to hit.

Monster Warden I agree with you on though. I'm not a fan of it even with Master Monster Hunter. Though I suppose a bonus to your AC and to your next save against that monsters next attack can be seen as a nice stacking buff, it isn't nearly as reliable and the feat doesn't do anything else. If it maybe had some other function I could see it being more useful.

That bonus wouldn't be mutually exclusive with getting more information though. The DC of the check gets harder on subsequent rolls, but you can still get more information on multiple rolls.


Captain Morgan wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

My issue with Monster Warden is that it doesn't do anything in addition to the critical success effect. Even on an outwit ranger, I feel like it needs a little more. That said, it becomes great once Master Monster Hunter comes into play, so retraining is a good idea.

One other not so obvious benefit of Monster Hunter: after successfully identifying a monster, you can attempt another check at a harder DC to learn more. So if you fight a bunch of the same creature you might wind up learning an awful lot indeed.

True, but at the expense of not gaining that circumstance bonus. This presents the player with an interesting choice to make honestly. I enjoy mechanics that challenge a player to decide between a shot at an advantage in the short term or a shot at a long term advantage. Learning more details about a critter can be immensely important after all, but may not be immediately useful like a 5% increased chance to hit.

Monster Warden I agree with you on though. I'm not a fan of it even with Master Monster Hunter. Though I suppose a bonus to your AC and to your next save against that monsters next attack can be seen as a nice stacking buff, it isn't nearly as reliable and the feat doesn't do anything else. If it maybe had some other function I could see it being more useful.

That bonus wouldn't be mutually exclusive with getting more information though. The DC of the check gets harder on subsequent rolls, but you can still get more information on multiple rolls.

Sure it isn't mutually exclusive, but as the DC raises, the chance of getting that bonus drops. If you wanted to gather information with using actions only to perform recall knowledge, then you have to decide if you want to go for the higher DC to gain more information, or have a better chance at critically passing for the bonus. Hence why I stated that I like mechanics that make a player weigh their options to make a difficult choice.

If they go with the lower DC, they won't get as much juicy detail in the long term without spending whole extra actions recalling knowledge.


beowulf99 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

My issue with Monster Warden is that it doesn't do anything in addition to the critical success effect. Even on an outwit ranger, I feel like it needs a little more. That said, it becomes great once Master Monster Hunter comes into play, so retraining is a good idea.

One other not so obvious benefit of Monster Hunter: after successfully identifying a monster, you can attempt another check at a harder DC to learn more. So if you fight a bunch of the same creature you might wind up learning an awful lot indeed.

True, but at the expense of not gaining that circumstance bonus. This presents the player with an interesting choice to make honestly. I enjoy mechanics that challenge a player to decide between a shot at an advantage in the short term or a shot at a long term advantage. Learning more details about a critter can be immensely important after all, but may not be immediately useful like a 5% increased chance to hit.

Monster Warden I agree with you on though. I'm not a fan of it even with Master Monster Hunter. Though I suppose a bonus to your AC and to your next save against that monsters next attack can be seen as a nice stacking buff, it isn't nearly as reliable and the feat doesn't do anything else. If it maybe had some other function I could see it being more useful.

That bonus wouldn't be mutually exclusive with getting more information though. The DC of the check gets harder on subsequent rolls, but you can still get more information on multiple rolls.

Sure it isn't mutually exclusive, but as the DC raises, the chance of getting that bonus drops. If you wanted to gather information with using actions only to perform recall knowledge, then you have to decide if you want to go for the higher DC to gain more information, or have a better chance at critically passing for the bonus. Hence why I stated that I like mechanics that make a player weigh their options to make a difficult choice.

If...

Oh, I see, you're saying you can choose not to raise the DC to fish for crits. I don't know that you actually get that choice as written, but that's a pretty good house rule.


Captain Morgan wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

My issue with Monster Warden is that it doesn't do anything in addition to the critical success effect. Even on an outwit ranger, I feel like it needs a little more. That said, it becomes great once Master Monster Hunter comes into play, so retraining is a good idea.

One other not so obvious benefit of Monster Hunter: after successfully identifying a monster, you can attempt another check at a harder DC to learn more. So if you fight a bunch of the same creature you might wind up learning an awful lot indeed.

True, but at the expense of not gaining that circumstance bonus. This presents the player with an interesting choice to make honestly. I enjoy mechanics that challenge a player to decide between a shot at an advantage in the short term or a shot at a long term advantage. Learning more details about a critter can be immensely important after all, but may not be immediately useful like a 5% increased chance to hit.

Monster Warden I agree with you on though. I'm not a fan of it even with Master Monster Hunter. Though I suppose a bonus to your AC and to your next save against that monsters next attack can be seen as a nice stacking buff, it isn't nearly as reliable and the feat doesn't do anything else. If it maybe had some other function I could see it being more useful.

That bonus wouldn't be mutually exclusive with getting more information though. The DC of the check gets harder on subsequent rolls, but you can still get more information on multiple rolls.
Sure it isn't mutually exclusive, but as the DC raises, the chance of getting that bonus drops. If you wanted to gather information with using actions only to perform recall knowledge, then you have to decide if you want to go for the higher DC to gain more information, or have a better chance at critically passing for the bonus. Hence why I stated that I like mechanics that make a player weigh their options to
...

Exactly. I see it as the difference between trying to figure out more about the race in general, and trying to figure out more about this particular specimen. If you are focusing on the details of a specific creature rather than its contemporaries, you aren't going to find out more about the race in general. Like looking for that limp or them favoring a leg vs. what their race eats or where they come from.


If you want to have your cake and eat it too, Survey Wildlife lets you potentially identify monsters before combat, and you can alway chain successes there to learn all you can before combat begins.

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