Feedback: PFS (2nd edition) Guide to Play


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Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

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Micheal Smith wrote:
"Day job is the same thing as Earn Income. This term derives from 1E and jhas the same concept."

They don't work at all the same, though.

Day Jobs in PFS1 were rolled once, couldn't be combined with other Downtime activities, utilized a chart that only existed in the PFS1 Guide, and you could only roll Craft or Profession as the default.

Checks to Earn Income in PFS2 can be rolled multiple times if you have enough Downtime blocks, can be combined with other Downtime activities, utilize rules from the Core Rulebook, and you can roll Lore in addition to Crafting or Profession as the defaults.

By the time you've had to explain the differences, why bother including it at all?

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

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There is no reason to introduce a 1e term into the 2e guide.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

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Nefreet wrote:
Micheal Smith wrote:
"Day job is the same thing as Earn Income. This term derives from 1E and jhas the same concept."

They don't work at all the same, though.

Day Jobs in PFS1 were rolled once, couldn't be combined with other Downtime activities, utilized a chart that only existed in the PFS1 Guide, and you could only roll Craft or Profession as the default.

Checks to Earn Income in PFS2 can be rolled multiple times if you have enough Downtime blocks, can be combined with other Downtime activities, utilize rules from the Core Rulebook, and you can roll Lore in addition to Crafting or Profession as the defaults.

By the time you've had to explain the differences, why bother including it at all?

Wow I love how you can boil down the answer so effectively. I have been trying to express this very point without much success. THANK YOU!

1/5

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Minor point: Performance can also be used to Earn Income. (And I believe Perform(x) could also be used during a Day Job check, though that's neither here nor there).

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

D'oh!

The Exchange 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

Can we please not bring this argument into yet another thread? As Tonya says in the first post, they are going to use this thread to identify places where the Guide needs upgrades or improvements. “How using Downtime to Earn Income works” has been identified as a problem point. Arguing over what term to use isn’t doing anything but clutter up the thread.

4/5

8 people marked this as a favorite.

Monday Presents!

Hi everyone. I know we have been pretty quiet for the last few weeks. Our team has been busy working with the goblins at paizo, negotiating how we are going to transition parts of the site over to our control. There has been much bartering of birds and shiny objects.

In the mean time, we have also been listening to requests. While we wait to hear back from the server goblins, I have gone through and dealt with one of the things that has been most bothering me, and some of you as well. The Faction Boons Page has had a major formatting update.

Other Stuff

I would like to second the request to keep arguments out of this thread. It is hard enough to keep up to date with.

I plan to go through and do some minor updates to the rest of the pages dealing with things like the Fiji misspelling in the next few days. But I have to work that in around the rest of my schedule. So please be patient.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Question.

Guide > GM Basics > Challenge Points wrote:
Some adventures have only one subtier. For these adventures, use the challenge point system to determine any adjustments. If the table would direct you to run the high subtier, instead run the adventure with the level bump and the 6-player adjustment.

If an adventure has only one subtier, say 1-2. Are the L2 characters "second-lowest" (3CP) or "highest" (6CP)?

A table of 6 L2 characters would be either 18 or 42 CP. The text then goes on to say that if you get pushed to high tier (which doesn't exist) instead you should go 6-player adjustment and a level bump, which seems exactly right for 6 PCs who are all a level higher than the ground floor.

With 18 CP you would end up exactly at "high tier", with 42 CP you'd get "6 players, level bump, high tier". Which is not actually doable because you can't apply the 6-player adjustment twice and doing two level bumps to the adventure also doesn't make much sense. So I'm fairly sure you should be using the "second lowest" CP value.

But it would probably be good to be much more explicit about that.

4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Skittermanders

I would like to also announce that we have recruited a team of helpful team of skittermanders to assist with this endeavor. They are currently engaged in checking links, proofing content, and ensuring that the new, improved version of the site will be as fully accessible as possible, including cross device, cross browser compatible, as well as compatible with assistive technology, such as screen readers.

As you can imagine, this involves quite a lot of work, in some cases very specialized work, and I would like to publicly thank those who have donated their time and expertise.

4/5

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

Question.

Guide > GM Basics > Challenge Points wrote:
Some adventures have only one subtier. For these adventures, use the challenge point system to determine any adjustments. If the table would direct you to run the high subtier, instead run the adventure with the level bump and the 6-player adjustment.

If an adventure has only one subtier, say 1-2. Are the L2 characters "second-lowest" (3CP) or "highest" (6CP)?

A table of 6 L2 characters would be either 18 or 42 CP. The text then goes on to say that if you get pushed to high tier (which doesn't exist) instead you should go 6-player adjustment and a level bump, which seems exactly right for 6 PCs who are all a level higher than the ground floor.

With 18 CP you would end up exactly at "high tier", with 42 CP you'd get "6 players, level bump, high tier". Which is not actually doable because you can't apply the 6-player adjustment twice and doing two level bumps to the adventure also doesn't make much sense. So I'm fairly sure you should be using the "second lowest" CP value.

But it would probably be good to be much more explicit about that.

The table is based off comparing the PCs to the lowest legal tier. Pretty clearly, it should be second lowest. Otherwise 2 level 1, and 2 level 2 would play with a level bump and a 6 player adjustment, which is obviously not the intent.

We are currently working on clarifying language.

2/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston aka NielsenE

Thank you. The boons look much better/easier to scan.

Dark Archive 3/5 Venture-Captain, Colorado—Denver aka masterslate

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Thanks for the table format updates on the Faction Boons! I no longer need to do really terrible one-off parsing of different items on that table to make the PDF nice and shiney!

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Thank you so much for all the formatting and other improvements!

Hmm

2/5 Venture-Agent, Online—PbP aka Lady Ladile

Thank youuuu~! :)

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/55/55/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

Thank you for the formatting upgrades! Now that I can read this page without getting a headache, I'm noticing a few things that I'd like to recommend get your "Disclaimer / may not work" note:

* Adversary Lore: "While this boon is slotted" (boon does not list what slot it occupies)
* Promotional Accessory: "such as XX" (boon can't really be used until OPF team determines what XX is)
* Resist Corruption: "While this boon is slotted" (boon does not list what slot it occupies)

Also one minor note:
* Exemplary Recruiter has "-" listed for boon type in the chart, but "slotless" in its description.

And one Super super minor note:
* Swift Traveler has slightly different formatting than the rest of the boons on the page.

Again, thank you tons for your work on this!!!

Radiant Oath 1/5

Mike Bramnik wrote:

* Adversary Lore: "While this boon is slotted" (boon does not list what slot it occupies)
* Resist Corruption: "While this boon is slotted" (boon does not list what slot it occupies)

Is there any reason to assume they wouldn't occupy a Generic Slot?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

I think, since many of us are used to the Boon *types* from Starfinder (Ally, Social, Slotless, etc), Pathfinder should go just with *tags*, to make things clearly different.

You can slot 5 of the same type of Boon, if you wanted, which is something you can't do in Starfinder.

Get rid of types all together, and clarify that you may only slot one Boon with the Faction, Promotional, or Advanced tag.

The Exchange 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

I mentioned the redundancy with the advanced boon slot earlier, and clearly the other slots are confusing as well. I’m going to try not to devolve into debate, so I’ll just summarize the concern here. According to the Guide you get:
1 Faction Boon slot which can only hold a boon with the Faction tag
1 Advanced Slot which can hold either a boon with the Advanced tag or any generic boon.
3 Generic slots which can hold any boon that does not have the Advanced or Faction tag.

but it takes a lot of text to say that. Please streamline the text to make it more understandable. How about:

Quote:
PCs gain boons either as rewards on a chronicle or by purchasing boons from Pathfinder Society factions (link). At the start of an adventure, each player can choose up to five of their character’s boons to use during that adventure - a process known as “slotting boons.” You may choose no more than one boon with the Faction tag, and may choose no more than one boon with the Advanced tag. Other tags are only restricted by the total number of slots available (five). Boons with the Slotless tag do not need to be chosen at the start of an adventure to be usable during that adventure.

I didn’t write that intending to imply it is definitive. There is definitely a lot of room for opinion and clarification here, some of which depends on exactly what the OrgPlay intends. Two things that immediately pop out: is slotting a Faction tagged boon required? (currently no, but you can’t use that slot for anything else) Can you slot multiple promotional boons? (currently yes) The issue is identified. Let’s discuss the particulars (what should and shouldn’t be required/allowed) in another thread.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Kevin Willis wrote:
Can you slot multiple promotional boons? (currently yes)

Not arguing, but this is currently disallowed in the Guide.

You can slot only one boon with the promotional trait at the same time.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Kevin Willis wrote:
Let’s discuss the particulars (what should and shouldn’t be required/allowed) in another thread.

Here you go!

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Kevin Willis wrote:


Vault Delver capstone: this may just be me missing something but this doesn’t look like a capstone. Why would anyone spend 8 Fame to give another character access to an uncommon item when you can bequeath any uncommon option - including items - for 4 Fame (and at an earlier level, to boot) with the Bequeathal boon? Is this the right level/cost?

Bequethal, you give up access to the option to give another character access.

Vault delver, both characters get access.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

This is the strangest feedback I've given on something like this in some time, but: the sans-serif font used is for some reason displaying lowercase "i" as an uppercase, which looks like a sans-serif "l", leading me to read things like "Radlant Oath" and "Herolc Insplratlon."

It's super weird?

4/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.
GreatGraySkwid wrote:

This is the strangest feedback I've given on something like this in some time, but: the sans-serif font used is for some reason displaying lowercase "i" as an uppercase, which looks like a sans-serif "l", leading me to read things like "Radlant Oath" and "Herolc Insplratlon."

It's super weird?

It is something we are aware of, and are looking into solutions. In the mean time, as a (unpleasant) work around, the problem seems to resolve if you enlarge the page by 10%.

We do not yet have any control over the font choice, unless we want to start hand coding content.

And no one wants us to start doing that...

Dark Archive 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm not finding an answer to a couple of questions, that should be very straightforward.

I'm assuming that GMs continue to be able to receive chronicle sheets for adventures run, but I can't find the language anywhere. Can someone please confirm and/or direct me to the right place?

In the same vein, do GMs get downtime between adventures? Is there some standard we should follow if there is not yet a character built to take the slot?

Dark Archive 1/5

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CigarPete wrote:

I'm assuming that GMs continue to be able to receive chronicle sheets for adventures run, but I can't find the language anywhere. Can someone please confirm and/or direct me to the right place?

The guide assumes that you read all the subpages in order. Simply checking the GM section, for example, won't give you the full picture, so searching for rules can be a bit tedious.

Organized Play Basics
Organized Play Basics - Replaying Adventures wrote:
You can receive a Chronicle sheet for a given adventure twice: once for playing the adventure and once for running the adventure as a GM—even if you run the adventure multiple times, though each time you GM an adventure contributes to your GM glyph rating and rewards.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Newcastle aka Tim Schneider 908

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Online Guide Team Lead - JTT wrote:
It is something we are aware of, and are looking into solutions. In the mean time, as a (unpleasant) work around, the problem seems to resolve if you enlarge the page by 10%.

Seems like the font doesn't like 22px font size while bold - odd quirk, even 1px bigger works. If you have control of the CSS you can just swap the h3 font size to 1.4375rem (23px) rather than 1.375rem (22px) and it works - but I guess if you can't change the font you probably can't change that either yet.

It may have bothered me enough that I set up a local style-sheet to make that adjustment & it works :P

4/5

8 people marked this as a favorite.

More Monday Presents

We have gone through with the help of the Skittermanders and clarified the Boons System a little bit. As of now, all the rules for boons are contained on the player page. Only the rules that apply specifically to boons purchased using fame are now on the faction boon page (such as your first champion boon being free.)

We added some Special: tags to certain boons as reminders of special rules for those boons. (Such as only one promotional boon at a time.) While we recognize that this is redundant, it is a useful reminder if people are printing out their characters boons.

We have also removed the dangling "such as" from the Promotional Vestments boon. I hope to get a clarified list from the OP coordinator, until then, GMs should use their judgement and err on the side of generosity. As noted by others, it is a relatively minor boon, and should be easy to qualify for.

A word on Monday Presents.

I am trying to keep updates to mondays to make things easier for our brave compilers who are pulling together PDFs and so on. I can't promise there will be an update every monday, and obviously if it is something critical, I will have it up as soon as possible.

But I will try to give people a bit of joy every monday if I can.

Scarab Sages 1/5

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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Based on what I've been seeing in the games I've played, this wording in the Earn Income section could use clarification:

"The Task Level of your Earn Income check is equal to your level – 2 (minimum 0) by default (GMs should check Table 10–5: DCs by Level on page 503 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook to calculate the DC)".

The first sentence uses "level" for both Task level and PC level, and then says to look up "DCs by Level". I've had GMs use both task level (giving first level characters a DC of 14) and PC level (giving a DC of 15 at first level).

Vigilant Seal

Wondering when or if the Lost Omens World Guide and Lost Omens Character Guide information will be allowed in Pathfinder Society (2nd edition) organized play?

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

No set date as of yet that I know of. It takes awhile based on PF1 for stuff to be added sometimes up to 6 months after release is the most.

2/5 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

It should, in the end, be faster since they can skip Paizo's website. However, they've had other fires to put out.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber

Maybe, maybe not. We don’t really know where they are with actually reviewing the material and deciding what is/not going to be allowed. Assuming they can do that quickly, it can make it to the OPF website quickly. If it takes months, more than likely the issue is with the Paizo team not the web managers for OPF

2/5 5/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Rereading my post, I see I left too much of my underlying thoughts out in an attempt at brevity making it seem more immediate and optimistic than I intended.

"In the end" meant after their staffing issues are resolved, after their process is revised, and after the Guide format is finalized. It reportedly will be faster than PFS1 because they don't need to wait on approvals and formatting from Paizo.

I do worry that they're letting too much content accumulate, creating an "insurmountable" appearing pile of work that makes it more and more likely to be deferred in favor of small, faster appearing tasks.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Given Paizo couldn't keep up with the desires of the community when they were "fully" staffed, that they are down a staffer is a near guarantee the workload is beyond their ability to fulfill.

Grand Archive

Steven Lau wrote:
No set date as of yet that I know of. It takes awhile based on PF1 for stuff to be added sometimes up to 6 months after release is the most.

Noooo . . . Six months until I am a legal character? Whatever shall I do until then?

Hrm, given the tradition that character rewrites are permissable before second level, I can design an only slightly different version of myself and enjoy a a couple sessions . . .

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5

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It would be nice if the Legacy Background Thassilonian Delver gave Thassilon Lore, rather than Thassilonian History, so it would mesh better with the Runescarred archetype from Lost Omens World Guide. Otherwise characters who are really into Thassilon stuff would end up with two basically identical Lore skills rather than improving one.

The Exchange

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The limits as to what can be purchased conflict in the Player Basics section and the Organized Play Basics (level or lower in one section, level+2 or lower in the other)


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

RE level 5 pre-gens, I let players do a level 3 dayjob with the pregen's mod, given a lack of alternatives or clarification.

A clear ruling would be very welcome.

Don't know if this is answered later in the thread, but this seems incorrect. Wouldn't the player make the Downtime roll when the sheet is applied to the character and use that character's abilities?

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

N N 959 wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

RE level 5 pre-gens, I let players do a level 3 dayjob with the pregen's mod, given a lack of alternatives or clarification.

A clear ruling would be very welcome.
Don't know if this is answered later in the thread, but this seems incorrect. Wouldn't the player make the Downtime roll when the sheet is applied to the character and use that character's abilities?

That is the general guideline being given to GMs for chronicles earned from GMing and earned income. It happens when the sheet is applied to the character.

This is not in the guide yet however.

2/5 Venture-Agent, Missouri—Rolla aka epicmusic42

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Someone else might have already mentioned it, but there isn't anywhere that provides instructions for how GMs fill out chronicles. Some things (like whether or not GMs make earn income checks) aren't clear currently. Between some of the changes from 1e and GMs that are new to society in general, a section giving GMs instructions on their own rewards would extremely helpful.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

GMs get Downtime just the same as players.


Nefreet wrote:
GMs get Downtime just the same as players.

Perhaps you can answer another question. For the lvl 5 Pregens. Do the characters use the skills of the pregens to roll Earned Income, or do they use the skills of the character to which the chronicle is assigned, at the time it is assigned?

Seems like the most straight forward thing to do is have the player make the Downtime call at the game the sheet is applied with the skills of the character it is applied to. This seems the most fair as it won't' matter what Pregen you used, you're getting the same modifier for your rolls.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

When I played this (as Fumbus) and applied the credit to my 3rd level character, my GM said the "official" answer was that Campaign Leadership didn't care about the one-time earning bonus potential.

I don't know where they heard that. Perhaps in the GM Discussion thread. Maybe someone else who has a link will be able to provide that here.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

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OP Guide wrote:
Downtime: Pregenerated characters can use Downtime.

At GenCon John Compton confirmed to me you made level 3 day job checks using the pregen's stats and earned a bit of extra cash.

Note that downtime rolls for players have to be resolved at the table, and it's quite possible that players playing 1-00 will not have built characters yet. So what other stats do we have besides the pregens played?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Missouri—Columbia aka Xathos of Varisia

Robert Hetherington wrote:
OP Guide wrote:
Downtime: Pregenerated characters can use Downtime.

At GenCon John Compton confirmed to me you made level 3 day job checks using the pregen's stats and earned a bit of extra cash.

Note that downtime rolls for players have to be resolved at the table, and it's quite possible that players playing 1-00 will not have built characters yet. So what other stats do we have besides the pregens played?

I do believe they announced that over the speaker somewhere near the end of the scenario. I was pretty tired by that point and have a vague recollection of what was said.


Nefreet wrote:
When I played this (as Fumbus) and applied the credit to my 3rd level character, my GM said the "official" answer was that Campaign Leadership didn't care about the one-time earning bonus potential.

How did you apply a lvl 5 chronicle to a lvl 3 character?

I thought the guide says it has to be to a lvl 1 or the level of the pregen you played?


Robert Hetherington wrote:
OP Guide wrote:
Downtime: Pregenerated characters can use Downtime.

Yes, that part I'm aware of.

Quote:
At GenCon John Compton confirmed to me you made level 3 day job checks using the pregen's stats and earned a bit of extra cash.

So this is problematic.

Quote:
Note that downtime rolls for players have to be resolved at the table...

Well, they have to be resolved at a table, yes. But there's no reason why it has to be at the same table the chronicle is earned at. I think the rule means that any rolls have to be verified by a GM, in other words, you can't go home and roll.

Quote:
and it's quite possible that players playing 1-00 will not have built characters yet. So what other stats do we have besides the pregens played?

Wouldn't that be true for the GM as well?

The procedures outlined for the GM make perfect sense. Use the skills of the character it is assigned to, at the time it is assigned. Why would you not use the exact same procedure for the players? Because John Compton said it has to be resolved at the table?

What happens if a player wants to do crafting but hasn't figured out what they wanted to craft at the end of a five hour session as the game store is closing? The player has to roll EI or forfeit it? What about the crafting checks?

I think it might help to have a discussion about what approach is best given all the factors. I'm telling my players to roll it when they assign to a character. That means someone whose character can craft, but originally plays a pregen who cannot craft, isn't screwed out of crafting they would have been able to do at that level, by virtue of choosing to play Origins of the Open Road, which forces you to use a Pregen.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

1 person marked this as a favorite.
N N 959 wrote:


What happens if a player wants to do crafting but hasn't figured out what they wanted to craft at the end of a five hour session as the game store is closing? The player has to roll EI or forfeit it? What about the crafting checks?

You've got to have it figured out then as a player.

OP Guide N. Downtime wrote:

Downtime*: Use this section to record how much Downtime your character earned from the adventure and how you spent it.

GM Instructions: Be sure to resolve any Downtime activity that requires a check before the players leave the table. If the player is using an activity that does not require a check, they can record what they are doing and take time between sessions to make the decisions needed to resolve the effect fully. For example, players who want to retrain a feat can record that they are retraining a particular feat, and then decide which new feat they want to take between sessions.

If there's any check involved you've got to resolve it before leaving the table.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

N N 959 wrote:

Why would you not use the exact same procedure for the players? Because John Compton said it has to be resolved at the table?

Because it was day 1 of PFS2 and something had to be done? Yes, the same procedure for applying a chronicle held for a later level for both GMs and players is likely the best way.

N N 959 wrote:
What happens if a player wants to do crafting but hasn't figured out what they wanted to craft at the end of a five hour session as the game store is closing? The player has to roll EI or forfeit it? What about the crafting checks?

Players needs to take more ownership on their characters and understand their plans for them. So yes, if the player has not figured out by the end of the session what the want to try and craft, roll for Earned Income.

The Exchange

They really need to clarify the Player basics if the intent is:

Players can buy common items of their level or less always. If an item appears on a chronicle sheet, they can ONLY buy it if the item level is their level +2 or less (thus forget the L12 item for your character in one of the tier 1-2 scenarios)

This seems to be what is stated in other sections of the guide

*Edited out section which seems to be irrelevant if the above is true

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