Should non-casters be able to increase their class DC to Legendary?


Homebrew


As it stands, the dedicated casters (Wizard, Bard, Sorcerer, Druid, Cloistered Cleric) get legendary proficiency in spellcasting/class DC. All of the noncasters and also the warpriest cleric top out at master. While "not getting legendary proficiency in spellcasting" is the primary tradeoff of the cloistered vs. war cleric makes this as a general option somewhat problematic, it seems less of an issue to let a monk invest in the maximum chance of landing stunning fists or a rogue in the maximal impact of debilitating strikes. After all "legendary class DC" is much less powerful than "legendary spellcasting" as non-casters use their DC for many fewer things.

What would be an appropriate cost for this? An archetype?

Liberty's Edge

I think a general Spellcaster Boost Archetype with the following feats might be reasonable.

You could make it one of those Archetypes that is lauded to work with multiple different Multiclass Arcehtypes that has been discussed. Call it the Spellcaster Devotee Archetype.

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10th Level Feat - Greater Spellcasting Devotion

Pre-Req: Basic Spellcasting Devotion Feat

You gain 1 additional Cantrip and Spell Slot per Spell Level provided by a single Multiclass Spellcasting Archetype you possess.
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14th Level Feat - Grand Spellcasting Devotion

Pre-Req: Greater Spellcasting Devotion Feat, Expert Spellcasting Multiclass Archetype Feat

You gain 1 additional Cantrip and Spell Slot per Spell Level provided by a single Multiclass Spellcasting Archetype you possess. This stacks with Greater Spellcasting Devotion.
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20th Level Feat - Glorious Spellcasting Devotion

Pre-Req: Grand Spellcasting Devotion Feat, Master Spellcasting Multiclass Archetype Feat

Your Proficiency Ranks for Spell Attack Rolls and Spell DCs provided by a single Multiclass Spellcasting Archetype you possess is increased to Legendary.
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This would allow them to focus their Class Feats they are not otherwise spending at levels where they'd normally be encouraged to take their own Class Feats on further increasing their primary Class on increasing their Multiclass Spellcasting Profs.


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But that feat chain does nothing for the monk who wants to land stunning fists or mountain stomps who does not have "spellcasting."


I don't think they should, Monks Stunning fists per example is way more action efficient than spells for being a passive effect, the other proficiencies are way better as well, managing better saves with LME compared to casters MEE(LEE bard) and having better armor proficiency (every martial have M at minimum).


Kyrone wrote:
I don't think they should, Monks Stunning fists per example is way more action efficient than spells for being a passive effect, the other proficiencies are way better as well, managing better saves with LME compared to casters MEE(LEE bard) and having better armor proficiency (every martial have M at minimum).

I believe the concern is the lower proficiency dc coupled with the critical pass and fail save effects. Given how potent monster saves tend to be the chances of any given focus power having an effect goes from slight to basically nonexistent as one moves from low to mid to high level gameplay.

I agree Stunning Fist and Mountain Quake aren't necessarily great examples since they have no resource cost. Ki Blast and Quivering Palm, otoh, cost a focus point and a variable number of actions in a turn. Pair these effects with their dependence on Fort save failures, and both powers become a poor option against opponents nearly at your level and negligible against monsters higher than.

And for balance reasons I can see the point behind gating the proficiency terms behind full casters... but, that doesn't change how it rolls out in play.


I don't really see how people can argue in favor for this but against Weapon/Armor Proficiency locking that occurs with Martials.

I'm starting to think people just wanted Casters deleted from the game.


Midnightoker wrote:

I don't really see how people can argue in favor for this but against Weapon/Armor Proficiency locking that occurs with Martials.

I'm starting to think people just wanted Casters deleted from the game.

Well, that's basically the point. If people want classes to be able to get that +2 on the low end through an investment, why not let classes be able to get that +2 on the high end through an investment?

I'm not necessarily convinced one way or the other, but they seem like the same question. And getting that +2 in class DC for a fighter, monk, rogue etc. seems much less impactful than a +2 to AC or to hit.


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If any Martials did get Legendary Proficiency with their Class DC it should be Fighter, but no I don't think this is something that's really needed.


Midnightoker wrote:

I don't really see how people can argue in favor for this but against Weapon/Armor Proficiency locking that occurs with Martials.

I'm starting to think people just wanted Casters deleted from the game.

Martial abilities that require a saving throw tend to cost a class feat, where as weapon/armor prof is built into the class basics.

Getting a consistent miss or hit die to a slightly lower number isn't such a big deal when the effect is passively rolled a great deal of times per day. With focus powers you're looking at 1-3 per day and only 1/ encounter if you want to avoid burnout.

So if something's only occurring 1/day and you devoted a class feat to it, there's a lot more riding on that DC; which makes a lower DC a particularly vexing problem.


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Halcyon_Janissary wrote:


Martial abilities that require a saving throw tend to cost a class feat, where as weapon/armor prof is built into the class basics.

You mean like Stunning Fist, which activates every single Round you hit twice as a Rider (so you'd be doing it anyways) and is straight up better than the Cantrip Daze in just about every way?

Stunning Fist has a better Critical Failure effect than most slotted spells for the first 5 levels, even when comparing only to incapacitation spells.

Quote:
Getting a consistent miss or hit die to a slightly lower number isn't such a big deal when the effect is passively rolled a great deal of times per day. With focus powers you're looking at 1-3 per day and only 1/ encounter if you want to avoid burnout.

What Burnout? Refocusing is expected and it's emphasized by being even easier to regain focus at higher levels. You're getting these every encounter, multiple times per encounter at later levels.

Quote:
So if something's only occurring 1/day and you devoted a class feat to it, there's a lot more riding on that DC; which makes a lower DC a particularly vexing problem.

Master is a solid DC for anything at all points of the game. Expert, sure, that might have argument, but Master is fine even for level 20.

And I have yet to see a Once Per Day that would require "Legendary" to be viable. Usually the power of once per day abilities compensates for the success.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Well, that's basically the point. If people want classes to be able to get that +2 on the low end through an investment, why not let classes be able to get that +2 on the high end through an investment?

Well then how bout we feed the starving General Feat before we worry about the hungry one?

If they did, I don't know that I would have a problem with say a path of Monk that accentuates Ki with Legendary DC and more support for Wisdom, but it certainly isn't putting them in a bad spot.

And honestly, if you look at Class Feats, they weren't really balanced around Legendary DCs being possible.

Legendary is always a tier above everyone, even at later levels, and even if you encountered someone also Legendary in the opposition you're likely even.


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Should casters get master in weapons and armor? Legendary?

The only proficiency that most casters have better is the DC one that reach legendary, let them feel special having 10% better chance of landing their saving throws stuff compared to martials.


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Kyrone wrote:

Should casters get master in weapons and armor? Legendary?

The only proficiency that most casters have better is the DC one that reach legendary, let them feel special having 10% better chance of landing their saving throws stuff compared to martials.

Thing is I don't even think Casters should be able to ever get Master in Weapons and Armor without Multiclassing, because they do not even get that with their base Class Lists.

What I do think is that Casters should be able to get Expert in Weapons/Armor at appropriate level for Weapons/Armor they decide to become trained in via the General Feats.

On the MCD side, I'd like for there to be a little more give and take in terms of sharing proficiency when Multiclassing, because as is concepts just outright don't work.

Like you Multiclass from Sorcerer into Barbarian, you take the Dedication and you get Athletics and Rage, which are decent, but no ability to wield Armor or Weapons at all (only Simple and Unarmed).

Now at this point the Sorcerer says "alright, I'll use my General Feats to supplement my need for better weapons and using light armor maybe, since I'll be in Melee a lot to take advantage of my Rage!"

And then they reach level 11, and their Weapon they bought is now so much worse than a Spell Roll it's laughable and worse than any simple weapon. Then at 13, the same happens to the armor they invested in, the item bonus is just not worth it even if you get the darn thing enchanted.

If the General Feats filled their role, you'd have a lot more diversity possible with just the core and tbh as is they are basically a carton of milk, good while it lasts but expires before you know it.

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