PF2 Expected Damage by Level Comparisons


Advice


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Here they are!


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Awesome job!


I was glad to see precision edge rangers doing well, everyone recommends flurry for a bow build, but precision is great.


My concern would be the non casters vs. the Fighter. Do they have enough other abilities to compensate for the lower damage. I think a Champion and Rogue does. I am not sure about the Barbarian and Ranger.


This looks great! Has any of the math been done for any of the Reload 1 weapons? I was thinking of making a Precision Ranger that uses a Halfling Sling Staff but was curious as to how much of a DPS loss that would end up being.


That's a good question. The monk has better defense and better 1 action damage which is nice.

The champion is lacking in terms of damage compared to other martials. This did not include divine ally or smite evil, which would be taken by a damage focused champion, but still that's a big gap. A fighter can MC champion and get the things that make a champion special by 6. But they do have better AC which is something.

The barbarian and rogue are pretty close in damage, especially against a debuffed enemy. The barbarian might be lacking compared to a fighter, but I think they're close enough. The rogue is great.

Rangers are very close in ranged damage, I'd say they're better. Didn't compare a twf ranger, unsure about them.

Non of the other martials seem too lacking to me.


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Samdroid wrote:
This looks great! Has any of the math been done for any of the Reload 1 weapons? I was thinking of making a Precision Ranger that uses a Halfling Sling Staff but was curious as to how much of a DPS loss that would end up being.

I think they loose a bit, but I really don't know. I'll do more comparisons within each class later, but that might not be for a bit.

Dark Archive

Would you mind comparing to an impossible flurry ranger with the flurry masterful edge?


If you change the barbarian build in your sheet to a Giant barbarian and use a d12 weapon, you will find a much higher dpr


Kerobelis wrote:
My concern would be the non casters vs. the Fighter. Do they have enough other abilities to compensate for the lower damage. I think a Champion and Rogue does. I am not sure about the Barbarian and Ranger.

the most special ability for Rangers is their animal companion. Begin from 1st lvl you can ride you horse. As long as you reach lvl 6, your horse will act automatically and save your action on move.

Additionally, if you are small size or you have reached lvl 10 and get your companion growing to big, you can even ride a bird instead of horse.


Unfortunately, unless they come out with an animal companion with flight and the mount keyword you won't be flying anywhere. Animal companions without the mount key word lose flying while mounted.


Question for the colorblind, on the melee damage for level+2 1 strike chart is it the rapier rogue or the caster who holds the lowest damage?


rayous brightblade wrote:
Unfortunately, unless they come out with an animal companion with flight and the mount keyword you won't be flying anywhere. Animal companions without the mount key word lose flying while mounted.

Ahh that hurts. But anyway you can still be a horse ride bowman.


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Paradozen wrote:
Question for the colorblind, on the melee damage for level+2 1 strike chart is it the rapier rogue or the caster who holds the lowest damage?

Caster always the lowest


Horse ride bowman is actually really good because the horse support is +2 damage per die after you have moved 10 ft.


rayous brightblade wrote:
Horse ride bowman is actually really good because the horse support is +2 damage per die after you have moved 10 ft.

But the horse support only affect one attack after the move. I don't think it's worth for one action if you don't need to move with your own action.


If you use a Titan barbarian and a larger weapon you'd definitely do a lot more damage. This wasn't to show the highest damage, just normal damage.

The horse would really help a lot, you're just losing the attack at -10, but it's also not adding too much to damage. I didn't even think to check if the house could work with ranged strikes, that's a great find.


Pretty much confirms my hypothesis that Fighter does comaparable damage in any given round than even the best blast available at that level. Main difference is Single target vs AOE.

Would like to see the burst damage of a caster just throwing the strongest spell under these same circumstances to get a more complete feel of this. There's not a lot of ways to optimize them, so should be straightforward.


ChibiNyan wrote:

Pretty much confirms my hypothesis that Fighter does comaparable damage in any given round than even the best blast available at that level. Main difference is Single target vs AOE.

Would like to see the burst damage of a caster just throwing the strongest spell under these same circumstances to get a more complete feel of this. There's not a lot of ways to optimize them, so should be straightforward.

That would be very easy to do if I just said damage for the AoE was 7 times spell level. But it's a little more complicated than that because spells get stronger with spell level, but not in such a simple way. Do you think I should just go 7*spell level? Or how could I incorporate that increase in power?


just calculate 3 classic spells works in different ways: burning hand, disintegrate, and finger of death.
Other spells are all similiar to them


citricking wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:

Pretty much confirms my hypothesis that Fighter does comaparable damage in any given round than even the best blast available at that level. Main difference is Single target vs AOE.

Would like to see the burst damage of a caster just throwing the strongest spell under these same circumstances to get a more complete feel of this. There's not a lot of ways to optimize them, so should be straightforward.

That would be very easy to do if I just said damage for the AoE was 7 times spell level. But it's a little more complicated than that because spells get stronger with spell level, but not in such a simple way. Do you think I should just go 7*spell level? Or how could I incorporate that increase in power?

Pick the most obvious blast spell every time a new spell is unlocked, focusing on the highest raw damage. Like the poster above me said, there's not really that much variety in them.


Hmm... Someone who undrestands this better than I.

WHich would likely be the best comparison point to say an Alchemist with an xbow. (or i guess darts)?
Idle curious. Not that I understand stuff too much overall.


Zwordsman wrote:

Hmm... Someone who undrestands this better than I.

WHich would likely be the best comparison point to say an Alchemist with an xbow. (or i guess darts)?
Idle curious. Not that I understand stuff too much overall.

A Ranger MC into Alchemist with an Alchemist-xbow is better than an Alchemist who want to use an xbow


Seems solid, upon first glance.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
citricking wrote:
Here they are!

For someone new to PF2E builds, is there a list of what makes the different builds in this distinct? What makes a Reach Fighter unique compared to a Dragon Monk, for example.


Zwordsman wrote:

Hmm... Someone who undrestands this better than I.

WHich would likely be the best comparison point to say an Alchemist with an xbow. (or i guess darts)?
Idle curious. Not that I understand stuff too much overall.

An alchemist would have the same accuracy as a caster with a shortbow from levels 1 to 6. So you could multiply the 1 action chart by 1.6 to get the damage for 1 shot with a crossbow, or the 2 action chart for 2 shots.


Wolfspirit wrote:
citricking wrote:
Here they are!
For someone new to PF2E builds, is there a list of what makes the different builds in this distinct? What makes a Reach Fighter unique compared to a Dragon Monk, for example.

Pretty much just the weapon and class. A reach fighter is a character with the fighter class using a 1d10 reach weapon like the halberd. A dragon monk is a monk using dragon stance.


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Updated with a simple AoE spell.


could you do the tiger monk with base 18 str.


ikarinokami wrote:
could you do the tiger monk with base 18 str.

Feel free to copy it and adjust values.

I don't want it to get too cluttered.

I'll do more comparisons when I make class guides.


Star5490 wrote:
rayous brightblade wrote:
Horse ride bowman is actually really good because the horse support is +2 damage per die after you have moved 10 ft.
But the horse support only affect one attack after the move. I don't think it's worth for one action if you don't need to move with your own action.

You're getting two actions with your horse when you order it to move. Unless you're in some crazy scenario where the horse needs to move twice to get where you need to go then the support bonus is free on those turns.


So this confirms that Casters do the same damage with a shortbow that with their own cantrips, with the only difference that shortbows can be improved with feats, cantrips do not.
Blasts are still crap compared to a full attack.


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It doesn't look like the cantrip formula accounts for the half damage on a successful save?
Also at a glance piercing seems to be one of the most common resistances/least common weaknesses compared to elemental, not sure if someone has done the tally yet.

Quote:
Blasts are still crap compared to a full attack.

Conclusion Jump: requires Trained in Mental Acrobatics.


CyberMephit wrote:

It doesn't look like the cantrip formula accounts for the half damage on a successful save?

Also at a glance piercing seems to be one of the most common resistances/least common weaknesses compared to elemental, not sure if someone has done the tally yet.

Quote:
Blasts are still crap compared to a full attack.
Conclusion Jump: requires Trained in Mental Acrobatics.

Yeah I made a note to fix that, and was hoping to before anybody noticed... But got busy with work...

It's updated now!

I think blasts look pretty good, the compare well to two attacks from a ranged martial, and they can hit everyone in an area.

And for cantrips vs a bow, an electric arc will be doing double the damage of two bow strikes... And you combine them too... (electric arc seems like too much)


The balancing factor on electric arc seems to be that if it's great you're within 30' of at least two enemies, which for casters is not so great a position to be in. It's pretty rational for the GM to send both of them after someone who just zapped them.


Samdroid wrote:
This looks great! Has any of the math been done for any of the Reload 1 weapons? I was thinking of making a Precision Ranger that uses a Halfling Sling Staff but was curious as to how much of a DPS loss that would end up being.

I am curious about this too. Seems like if you have staff sling/titan slinger with precision against large targets your hits are going to be pretty darn strong.


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Dekalinder wrote:

So this confirms that Casters do the same damage with a shortbow that with their own cantrips, with the only difference that shortbows can be improved with feats, cantrips do not.

Blasts are still crap compared to a full attack.

Well the other difference is the casting skill should make hitting with cantrips WAY easier as you level. The best a caster will do is expert at level 13ish with a bow but they will likely already be master with their casting check at that point.

Cantrips are nearly always going to be more consistent both in damage they do and ability to hit its target.


kaid wrote:
Dekalinder wrote:

So this confirms that Casters do the same damage with a shortbow that with their own cantrips, with the only difference that shortbows can be improved with feats, cantrips do not.

Blasts are still crap compared to a full attack.

Well the other difference is the casting skill should make hitting with cantrips WAY easier as you level. The best a caster will do is expert at level 13ish with a bow but they will likely already be master with their casting check at that point.

Cantrips are nearly always going to be more consistent both in damage they do and ability to hit its target.

The chart accounts for accuracy. Also, expert vs legendary is +4 difference, but weapon can get a +3 from items that spells cannot. Additionally, legendary spells is at level 19.


I noticed your bow STR column does not give out as much damage for composite bows as I expected.
0 at lvl 1 and then 1 up til 9. Seeing as it can be reasonable to expect a STR mod of +3 at first level this would provide a sizeable boost to all ranged characters particularly the flurry ranger.


I took a glance at the spread sheet (my comp sucks, so I couldn't go in depth). It appears the focus of rogue is on single weapon. How does TWF compare? Given the lesser role of static damage bonuses, is it worth the penalties?

Also, is there any real reason for a ruffian rogue to use different weapons? Besides using things like the longspear (and even that can be questionable without MC due to reach changes).


meowmixnix wrote:

I noticed your bow STR column does not give out as much damage for composite bows as I expected.

0 at lvl 1 and then 1 up til 9. Seeing as it can be reasonable to expect a STR mod of +3 at first level this would provide a sizeable boost to all ranged characters particularly the flurry ranger.

Yeah I went with a starting 14 for strength for bow users, strength doesn't do too much for them so I figured that was fair. If you're going for max damage a 16 is better levels 5-9.

These aren't supposed to be max damage comparisons.


lemeres wrote:

I took a glance at the spread sheet (my comp sucks, so I couldn't go in depth). It appears the focus of rogue is on single weapon. How does TWF compare? Given the lesser role of static damage bonuses, is it worth the penalties?

Also, is there any real reason for a ruffian rogue to use different weapons? Besides using things like the longspear (and even that can be questionable without MC due to reach changes).

The rogue was twf. It doesn't help much, but it does give a way to make the target flat footed.

I think the best weapons for a ruffian are short sword and rapier, they'd do a little more damage with a long spear.


How much damage is applying flatfooted worth, on average? Its hard to glean it from the charts. Like, at how many allies/dpr is spending your action to make someone flatfooted better than attacking yourself?


SoulGambit0 wrote:
How much damage is applying flatfooted worth, on average? Its hard to glean it from the charts. Like, at how many allies/dpr is spending your action to make someone flatfooted better than attacking yourself?

Maybe 30% increase of damage for non rogues, just eyeballing it.

For rogues it's like 80%.

So it feels really worth it, definitely worth a third attack. Otherwise it's situational, will they get a chance to use it? Maybe the target will die with one more attack.


citricking wrote:
SoulGambit0 wrote:
How much damage is applying flatfooted worth, on average? Its hard to glean it from the charts. Like, at how many allies/dpr is spending your action to make someone flatfooted better than attacking yourself?

Maybe 30% increase of damage for non rogues, just eyeballing it.

For rogues it's like 80%.

So it feels really worth it, definitely worth a third attack. Otherwise it's situational, will they get a chance to use it? Maybe the target will die with one more attack.

This is very good news for Open Hand Fighters that focus on debuffing - the most reliable flat-footed in the game can turn your rogue buddy into a serious blender.


I saw some analysis on Reddit of TWF damage, and a Barbarian (multiclassed several times) with two non-agile weapons won out.

This has gotten me wondering, since I thought the reduced rage damage for agile weapons was a balancing factor more than thematic enforcement.

Are agile weapons just not worth using for Barbarians?


Thebazilly wrote:

I saw some analysis on Reddit of TWF damage, and a Barbarian (multiclassed several times) with two non-agile weapons won out.

This has gotten me wondering, since I thought the reduced rage damage for agile weapons was a balancing factor more than thematic enforcement.

Are agile weapons just not worth using for Barbarians?

It seems a balancing factor, making agile not worth using for Barbarians.

That is except animal instinct ones that aren't raging when they use weapons, perhaps for DR/weakness purposes. But I don't think I would choose an animal form for it having an agile option that I'd end up avoiding. And maybe there's another corner case or two like throwing w/o Raging Thrower.

Monster templates suggest an agile attack do 3/4 the damage of a non-agile attack. The Barbarian's bonus is cut in 1/2. No other class has their bonuses cut (only a lower die weapon), so the Barb is being singled out.
I could see this choice being thematic (because to me it is), but Barb's mechanical niche for offense is damage, not attack nor MAP aid because combined that'd be too strong. As your Reddit reference shows, a Barb w/ MC Dedications to aid MAP can do lots of damage even w/o agile. Imagine having a higher attack too, but only a point/weapon die less damage.
Glad Paizo saw that ahead of time.

(And I wouldn't do multiple martial MC Dedications with a Barb, as the gate feats would give them little so they are paying a cost.)


That Barbarian build is going to be miserable to play with multiple dead levels where your class feat doesn't give you anything impactful.

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