Wizards, 10th-level slots, Drain Bonded Item, and Spell Blending


Rules Discussion


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This cannot be right, can it be? As far as I can tell, there is no limitation against a 19th-level wizard using Drain Bonded Item to replenish a 10th-level slot, or using Spell Blending to gain more and more 10th-level slots.

This seems grossly overpowered by 19th. Is this intentional? High-level gameplay should not be discounted, especially when adventure paths are supposed to go to 20th.

The sorcerer has a restriction against this. The wizard does not, which makes the wizard far better at abusing 10th-level slots.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

The wizard is better at using 10th level slots, yes. That seems to be intended.


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The Sorcerer has one slot but 11 spells he can cast with it at 19th level.


Is it really intentional that a wizard can load up on a large amount of 10th-level slots, something that no other class can do?

Consider that even a sorcerer is bound by spells in their repertoire.

Sovereign Court

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So far, it points out to yes, it is intentional until we are told otherwise.


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Colette Brunel wrote:

This cannot be right, can it be? As far as I can tell, there is no limitation against a 19th-level wizard using Drain Bonded Item to replenish a 10th-level slot, or using Spell Blending to gain more and more 10th-level slots.

This seems grossly overpowered by 19th. Is this intentional? High-level gameplay should not be discounted, especially when adventure paths are supposed to go to 20th.

The sorcerer has a restriction against this. The wizard does not, which makes the wizard far better at abusing 10th-level slots.

Overpowered? Come again?

You do realize that "10th level spells" are just nerfed version of ex 9th level spells, right?

And that instead of having 3 10th level slots, you only get one, and to get a second you either need to spend your 19th level feat or sacrifice 2 8th level spells with a certain arcane thesis?

Also, this whole "concern" about how "overpowered" this is is pretty funny, seeing as how 99% of campaigns will end up way before any PC makes it to 19th level.


10th-level slots are very strong. Consider that it is a 20th-level feat just to gain another 10th-level slot. Drain Bonded Item and Spell Blending can churn out even more 10th-level slots than that.

You should not discount high-level balance. They are as valid a point for game balance as any other. Throwing hands in the air and going, "Eh, who cares about balance at 19th and 20th level? Most games will end before then," is what results in little attention being paid to balance at those levels, and people being reluctant to play at those levels. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy that can be solved by game writers actually paying attention to high-level balance.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Well, Drain Familiar gets you one more 10th level spell, then Spell Blending gets you another at the cost of two 8th level spells.

Note in Spell Blending: "Bonus spell slots must be of a level you can normally cast, and each bonus spell slot must be of a different spell level."

Which reads to me as you can only get one bonus 10th level spell with Spell Blending.


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Spell Blending gets better the higher level you are, yeah. As does Drain Bonded Item.

Divine and Primal Sorcerers get a locked-in extra 10th level spell slot with a lower-level feat, and spontaneous casters get lots of options for their top-level slots by that point so they have flexibility. Clerics get extra heightened healing or harming.

But yeah, Wizard specializes in their top-level slots.


So a 20th level Universalist, Spell Substitution wizard could cast 22 10th level spells a day... Sounds right. ;)

EDIT: one slot wish, the other time stop, so cast time stop then 3 wishes before your turn is over. :o


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Uh.. how exactly Graystone?


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Based on my understanding of how Wizard works you would top out at up to 4 10th level spells. This would be through the use of draining an arcane bonded item, having a bonus 10th level spell slot through the 20th level capstone feat, and through the use of the Spell Substitution thesis.


Gloom wrote:
Uh.. how exactly Graystone?

Spell Substitution to gain an extra 10th level slot. Cast time stop and you now had three 3 action turns: #1 cast wish, #2 use Drain Bonded Item and cast wish, #3 Drain Bonded Item and cast wish.

EDIT: Universalist gets drain bonded item level/day. "you can use Drain Bonded item once per day to recall a spell of that level (instead of using it only once per day in total)."


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graystone wrote:
Gloom wrote:
Uh.. how exactly Graystone?
Spell Substitution to gain an extra 10th level slot. Cast time stop and you now had three 3 action turns: #1 cast wish, #2 use Drain Bonded Item and cast wish, #3 Drain Bonded Item and cast wish.

Drain Bonded Item was never supposed to work like that, and they have clarified the wording since the playtest:

Quote:
For each level of spell you can cast, you can use Drain Bonded item once per day to recall a spell of that level (instead of using it only once per day in total).


FowlJ wrote:
graystone wrote:
Gloom wrote:
Uh.. how exactly Graystone?
Spell Substitution to gain an extra 10th level slot. Cast time stop and you now had three 3 action turns: #1 cast wish, #2 use Drain Bonded Item and cast wish, #3 Drain Bonded Item and cast wish.

Drain Bonded Item was never supposed to work like that, and they have clarified the wording since the playtest:

Quote:
For each level of spell you can cast, you can use Drain Bonded item once per day to recall a spell of that level (instead of using it only once per day in total).

Ah, you are correct, I read it wrong. You can only wish twice and have to use a 9th level spell for the 3rd.


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You're all leaving out the specialist bonus slot, which is not foreclosed by anything in the wizard section.

So a specialist at 20th level can have four prepared 10th level slots and use his bond to cast a 5th.


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Xenocrat wrote:

You're all leaving out the specialist bonus slot, which is not foreclosed by anything in the wizard section.

So a specialist at 20th level can have four prepared 10th level slots and use his bond to cast a 5th.

Yes, Specialists can technically have a total of 5 but at a cost of versatility across the rest of their slots. I was doing it specifically for the Universalist he mentioned though. :)


That is a fair point. Simply being a specialist wizard earns yet another 10th-level spell slot. That seems even sillier.

The specialist slot, Drain Bonded Item, and Spell Blending give a 19th-level wizard four 10th-level slots. That is crazy.


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While an extra 10th level spell slot is great in some situations, there are times where this can be going a bit overboard. Being a specialist Wizard is probably the one that sacrifices the least so long as you have a very clear vision about what it is you're wanting to do.

Spell Blending while it can be powerful in some situations requires you to sacrifice 2 spell slots of decent power. In most scenarios I would rather have 2 more 8th level spell slots than a 10th level spell slot.

For the 20th level feat, I would almost always prefer Metamagic Master though the extra 10th level spell slot isn't bad for some people with very specific character concepts.

Similarly Universalist Wizards have a really strong versatility being able to use their Drain Arcane Bonded Item for each of their spell levels to restore a spell slot that you've already spent.

IMO it's kind of a toss-up.

In most games a single 10th level spell slot should suffice. While for most other things you'd ever want to do two would work just fine. The top end you'd ever realistically want to do without very specific concepts would be three.


In theory, it should suffice. Yet if the option exists to go overboard and gain a fat pack of 10th-level slots, because the sorcerer has a limitation against gaining new 10th-level slots whereas the wizard does not, then why not?

This seems more like an unintentional fallout of hasty writing than deliberate design to me.

Grand Lodge

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So basically with the wizard you can get either an extra 10th level slot or the universalist drain chain?


Taenia wrote:

So basically with the wizard you can get either an extra 10th level slot or the universalist drain chain?

Any wizard can get Bond Conservation, not just universalists.

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