Rogue and # of Skills


Rules Discussion


Does the Rogue have too many skills?

I have tried building a couple of Rogues and found that I end up having more than enough trained skills independent of what my Intelligence score is. This leads to picking up skills that are unnecessary for the concept just to spend all the trainings. Interestingly, I have often been tempted to take the flaw in Intelligence (to an "8") so as to shift the character "potential" to other areas (ex. Increasing an ability score of the skills my concept actually wants to use).

Wondering if I am alone in this...link...

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Skill feats and Skill increases at every level, make it necessary. If you take into accounts that you cannot have a skill at expert, master and legendary until you reach a certain level.

A rogue has a lot of choices to make every level and essentially go for the tropes of always having a skill trick to pull off.

Something that's kinda funny or even crazy to think about a rogue gets to become legendary in 5 skills.

Also as a side note, the lore skill can technically become a skill burner. Too many possible lore to pick up.


7 is a weird jump. Isn't the next highest 4?
It seems like it should be 6...


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For reference:

4
Bard (plus Occultism, Performance)
Monk
Ranger (plus Nature, Survival)

3
Alchemist (plus Crafting)
Barbarian (plus Athletics)
Fighter (plus either Acrobatics or Athletics)

2
Champion (plus Religion, Deity skill)
Cleric (plus Religion, Deity skill)
Druid (plus Nature, Order skill)
Sorcerer (plus Bloodline skills)
Wizard (plus Arcana)


Rogue can end up being legendary in 6 skills


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Eltacolibre wrote:


Something that's kinda funny or even crazy to think about a rogue gets to become legendary in 5 skills.

6 legendary skills. 1 at 15,16,17,18,19,20. Total 6.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Even crazier.


Well you also be expert in 1 other skill and remain trained in like 4 or more other skills so your perfect skill monkey.


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There's not a lot of skills in 2E. A Rogue will pretty much have all of the relevant ones trained right off the bat.

It does seem a bit silly, they could do with 1-2 less since they also have more skill increases. Let other party members shine too!

Liberty's Edge

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Rogue's whole thematic schtick is having lots of Skills. I'm confused why anyone would object to them thus having lots of skills.

Personally, I think they've hit the number of Skills a Rogue can have just about right.


ChibiNyan wrote:

There's not a lot of skills in 2E. A Rogue will pretty much have all of the relevant ones trained right off the bat.

It does seem a bit silly, they could do with 1-2 less since they also have more skill increases. Let other party members shine too!

I mean, a Bard can take Eclectic Skill at level 8 and add their level to every single untrained skill, and even use the trained options for said skills. Throw on top of that Bardic Lore, where you are trained in it and can use it for all Recall Knowledge, and even raise it to Expert when you're Legendary in Occultism, and the Rogue isn't the only skill class (also, you know Investigator will be one too).

But yeah, a lot of your skills as a Rogue will be Trained, as I doubt most Rogues will be able to resist having six Legendary Skills.


Those Skill Feats may end up getting used in other ways once Paizo starts making Class Archetypes.

CRB, p. 219 wrote:
Occasionally, an archetype feat works like a skill feat instead of a class feat. These archetype feats have the skill trait, and you select them in place of a skill feat, otherwise following the same rules above.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Rogue Archetypes used this approach for many features.


Mewzard wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:

There's not a lot of skills in 2E. A Rogue will pretty much have all of the relevant ones trained right off the bat.

It does seem a bit silly, they could do with 1-2 less since they also have more skill increases. Let other party members shine too!

I mean, a Bard can take Eclectic Skill at level 8 and add their level to every single untrained skill, and even use the trained options for said skills. Throw on top of that Bardic Lore, where you are trained in it and can use it for all Recall Knowledge, and even raise it to Expert when you're Legendary in Occultism, and the Rogue isn't the only skill class (also, you know Investigator will be one too).

But yeah, a lot of your skills as a Rogue will be Trained, as I doubt most Rogues will be able to resist having six Legendary Skills.

Here's a thought: The Bard options are kinda nice... But, they will not get significantly better over time, the Rogue will. More skill feats, more options and some of these options will inevitably be great, making it having DOUBLE the amount of skills of everyone else significantly better.

I would rather have them getting a little bit more than normal, but I think double it's way too much, specially for a class that can also handle itself really well in combat.

I would rather the Rogues to have less skill feats overall as a trade off in other areas (more unique combat approaches). But that's just a matter of taste for me. As long as they don't turn out to be OPeratives, I'm fine.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lightning Raven wrote:
Here's a thought: The Bard options are kinda nice... But, they will not get significantly better over time, the Rogue will. More skill feats, more options and some of these options will inevitably be great, making it having DOUBLE the amount of skills of everyone else significantly better.

Considering the general tropes for Rogues and their typically expected roles they'll need to have at least the following in order to perform as people would expect them to.

Deception (Legendary)
Stealth (Legendary)
Society (Legendary)
Thievery (Legendary) or Thievery (Master) and Trapfinding.

Since three to four of their skills are already predetermined for them and they're required to get them up to a significantly high rank to be able to perform the tasks that they'll usually be expected to it's really not too high of a number of skills.

On the other side of that coin humans can easily fill gaps in terms of trained skills for most characters. They have a feat that gives them the ability to add their full level into all skill checks, and perform the trained actions in them.

Bards have it even better and through the use of two feats they can essentially add their level to all skill checks and can even perform up to Expert Proficiency on them.

All in all Rogues are not in a terrible place right now, the skills feel just about right in terms of what you can expect the character to do.


What about before the Legendary levels.

Has anyone here actually built a 1st level Rogue?

If so, what were your 11+ skills?

(Assuming two from Background, Stealth, Racket, plus 7 more, plus INT)

Did you find that this was the "right" amount for your concept?

Dark Archive

rainzax wrote:

What about before the Legendary levels.

Has anyone here actually built a 1st level Rogue?

If so, what were your 11+ skills?

(Assuming two from Background, Stealth, Racket, plus 7 more, plus INT)

Did you find that this was the "right" amount for your concept?

I have made one and wanted one more for my concept; with a 14 intelligence, I took: medicine (background), warfare lore (background), stealth (rogue), thievery (racket), acrobatics, athletics, deception, performance, diplomacy, intimidation, crafting, society, and survival. These skills were necessary for his background as a battle medic for a scout team, his want to be useful to a group, making opportunities to use sneak attack, my goal of making him an assassin as well as someone who can try building a society of different races without prejudices (including orcs, goblins, and maybe trolls), and living up to elven expectations of eccentricities of mastering many arts.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

I love skills. Yesterday I made a halfling rogue herbalist character with +1 INT and with training in Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Crafting, Diplomacy, Herbalism lore, Nature, Society, Stealth, Survival and Trickery. I suppose I could get by with fewer skills, but I like the idea of taking a wizard or sorcerer multiclass at 2nd level for a few cantrips.

Rogues used to be a sub-par class. Now it feels top tier. This is good.


Wheldrake wrote:

I love skills. Yesterday I made a halfling rogue herbalist character with +1 INT and with training in Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Crafting, Diplomacy, Herbalism lore, Nature, Society, Stealth, Survival and Trickery. I suppose I could get by with fewer skills, but I like the idea of taking a wizard or sorcerer multiclass at 2nd level for a few cantrips.

Rogues used to be a sub-par class. Now it feels top tier. This is good.

There is some nice synergy between Rogue and Multiclass Wizard. Thief with light armor lets you use Dex for AC, Attack Rolls, and Damage while Int is applying to casting and more skills. Bespell Weapon and Magical Trickster look like a good combo, too. Hit a flat-footed opponent with a non-cantrip spell and you can add your Sneak Attack damage. Then attack with your weapon and increase the damage with the stored energy from the spell.


Gloom wrote:


Bards have it even better and through the use of two feats they can essentially add their level to all skill checks and can even perform up to Expert Proficiency on them.

Just to clarify, bards with bardic lore can be experts, but polymaths with the other feat only qualify as experts for the purposes of attempting things that require expert, they don’t actually get the +4 from expert proficiency. Beware of rituals you can attempt but are likely to fail.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Don't forget about picking up extra Lore skills! Some of those can be downright clutch.


rainzax wrote:

What about before the Legendary levels.

Has anyone here actually built a 1st level Rogue?

If so, what were your 11+ skills?

(Assuming two from Background, Stealth, Racket, plus 7 more, plus INT)

Did you find that this was the "right" amount for your concept?

From my sheet:

Skills: Trained in Stealth, Trained in Thievery, Trained in Acrobatics, Trained in Arcana, Trained in Athletics, Trained in Craft, Trained in Deception, Trained in Diplomacy, Trained in Nature, Trained in Occultism, Trained in Religion, Trained in Society, Trained in Survival

Did it feel right? Yep! My concept is a guy with a lot of skills! In fact, at 2nd I'm taking the wizard archetype and I'll then gain the last non-lore skill, Perform! ;)

WatersLethe wrote:
Don't forget about picking up extra Lore skills! Some of those can be downright clutch.

This is something that people that run out of skills that 'feel' right should remember: take a few lore for the last skills: Lore underworld, engineering, circus, alcohol, legal, city, games, herbalism [poisons], mercantile [appraise], sailing... And those are just ones listed that might work.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, even if you have every skill trained plus a bunch of lore skills, you'll still be hungrily eyeing which ones you can boost to expert/master/legendary. From my experience, I don't think rogues can get enough skill increases, they'll always want more.


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Xenocrat wrote:
Gloom wrote:


Bards have it even better and through the use of two feats they can essentially add their level to all skill checks and can even perform up to Expert Proficiency on them.
Just to clarify, bards with bardic lore can be experts, but polymaths with the other feat only qualify as experts for the purposes of attempting things that require expert, they don’t actually get the +4 from expert proficiency. Beware of rituals you can attempt but are likely to fail.

And an addendum: if a nymph queen who is your muse gives you her favor as a polymath Bard, you do get a +4 to all untrained skills, which bizarrely makes you better at untrained than trained skills.


Xenocrat wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Gloom wrote:


Bards have it even better and through the use of two feats they can essentially add their level to all skill checks and can even perform up to Expert Proficiency on them.
Just to clarify, bards with bardic lore can be experts, but polymaths with the other feat only qualify as experts for the purposes of attempting things that require expert, they don’t actually get the +4 from expert proficiency. Beware of rituals you can attempt but are likely to fail.
And an addendum: if a nymph queen who is your muse gives you her favor as a polymath Bard, you do get a +4 to all untrained skills, which bizarrely makes you better at untrained than trained skills.

Which amusingly enough is very muse like.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Breadcrumbs doesn't mind the extra skills.

If you really don't want to be forced into extra skills because you feel they don't fit your concept, rather than dumping your intelligence, maybe consider just getting a bunch of lore skills that are logical for your character to have. Or maybe don't play a rogue.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

Ravingdork, that file with Breadcrumbs is fantastic!
Do you have any more like that? What did you use to write it up?


Ravingdork wrote:
Breadcrumbs doesn't mind the extra skills.

Pickle Goblin is my favorite art so far...

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