At low levels they probably don’t pay off much, though it’s a delicate balancing act for the devs. If non-martials can compete with martials, then why bother playing a fighter? (as was the common thought in PF1) But if non-martials with melee options can’t actually hold their own, they’re just trap options (as was the case with the PF1 sorcerer’s claws)
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low level sorcerer claws is really just a matter of having a decent attack stat and attacking with them.
At higher levels they can kind of be a pain when you're -2/-4 to-hit behind everyone else (and -6 behind fighters ultimately) because you're stuck at trained.
The Glutton Jaws is specially bulky, it gives temporary hp every time you hit someone and considering that it's in the divine bloodline means that you have access to bless and heroism for better hit rates.
Draconic sorcerer granted spells are interesting... true strike and haste, two things desirable for close combat, and because these are granted spells they get bloodmagic out of that for extra AC.
But after lvl 11 you lag behind because the unnarmed attack is stuck in trained, I hope for an errata for that.
Is it even worthwhile to build towards these? I am having trouble seeing how building towards any of these actually pays off, particularly at the lower levels.
Sure it's possible: for instance, take a monk and multiclass into sorcerer Ki strike 1st, 2nd level Sorcerer Dedication, Basic Bloodline Spell at 4th for Glutton's Jaws. After that you can pick up some ki powers to get more focus.
This gets a monk an unarmed attack with the forceful trait dealing 1d8 piercing damage and 2d6 temp hp for a min [and they can flurry with it] This also gets the monk some ranged attack with the cantrips picked up. Seems viable.
If you mean staying sorcerer that too seem possible. Start off focused on dex and cha. At 1st, act like a normal sorcerer though buy shield for extra AC. At second take rogue Dedication and slap on some light armor. You'll be fine until unarmed proficiency falls behind though true strike and Dragon Claws can still manage and with elemental damage and vulnerability the damage can add up: also remember it offers damage resistance too so even if not attacking it can be a valuable spell. Again not setting any records but workable. Or a multiclass monk, for less Ac but more HP [Monk Resiliency], Monk's Flurry or some ki powers.
The nice thing about the Dragon Claws focus spell is that it also gets you scaling energy resistance as well, so you can just use it as a defensive buff if you don't want to get in close.
Question does temp hp stack? Im guessing no but i suppose 2d6 every turn would still be pretty good. (I'm assuming you just end up with any amount thats higher then the current amount of temp hp you have would that be correct?)
"If you gain temporary Hit Points when you already have some, choose whether to keep the amount you already have and their corresponding duration or to gain the new temporary Hit Points and their duration."
The Glutton Jaws is specially bulky, it gives temporary hp every time you hit someone and considering that it's in the divine bloodline means that you have access to bless and heroism for better hit rates.
Draconic sorcerer granted spells are interesting... true strike and haste, two things desirable for close combat, and because these are granted spells they get bloodmagic out of that for extra AC.
But after lvl 11 you lag behind because the unnarmed attack is stuck in trained, I hope for an errata for that.
Yeah. Proficiency in general is strange, there are a number of cases where options become obsolete because proficiency doesn’t seem to scale properly. Like picking up armor proficiency, when eventually your expert unarmored or light armor becomes as good as trained light or medium armor, respectively. You end up with dead feats supporting suddenly sub-par options.
At the very least, classes that can get unarmed attacks should get some way to keep their unarmed proficiency on par with their other weapons.
In my opinion, all these options should be backup ones. Making a melee sorcerer or a melee alchemist looks like a bad idea to me.
Still, there is one interesting thing, which is MAP. Most weapon characters will attack with a lower average attack bonus than their maximum, as they will do 2-3 attacks per round. So, the first attack of a sorcerer, despite the obvious lack of proficiency, is actually quite able to hit. And because you can now cast spells while being at melee range (unless you face an AoO monster), you can cast a spell per round and swing a blow as third action. The swing won't be massive, but is perfectly acceptable in terms of chances to hit. Still, it looks very hard to use to me, and very situational.
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You could also do a DragonSorc into Monk, pick up Powerful Fist and Flurry of Blows.
Small nitpick here (since I have a player doing DragonSorc), but Powerful Fist only seems to increase the damage of "fist" attacks specifically.
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A Strength sorcerer multiclassing into champion is generally a good idea (at least before the pesky armor proficiency issue at 13th), though I would not expect to be an off-tank with 6 base hit points.
Uh...Champion Multiclass fixes the armor issue. At 14th level. Other people need to worry about it, but not Multiclass Champions.
How functional is a dragon sorcerer build with a monk multiclass? It makes you a bit tougher and gives you the ability to flurry with your claws. Not sure how well the dragon stance abilities synergize, though.
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How functional is a dragon sorcerer build with a monk multiclass? It makes you a bit tougher and gives you the ability to flurry with your claws. Not sure how well the dragon stance abilities synergize, though.Flurry comes pretty far in and monk dedication doesn't give you a way to increase your unarmed proficiency for some bizarre reason. dragonstance synergizes decently well with a high charisma class , but I'd rather multiclass to bard for perma fear then use dragons roar
But how important actually is having a proficiency above Trained when the only difference is -2/-4 on your hit (as opposed to being half BAB behind every martial in 1e)? You're a full caster with a lot more tricks than beating people's face, so a few points behind a martial on melee attacks makes sense. True Strike is a also a level 1, single action spell, and since AoOs are quite rare, you can easily give up a -10 attack to boost your other hits for a round.
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Claws and jaws allow you to provide flanking with free hands.
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Casters in PF1e usually target touch AC so half-bab wasn't much of a problem, if they did target regular AC they had much better buffs that also lasted longer.
Also everyone kept and continues saying how every point matters, so yeah -2/-4 specially when comparing options from the same class is a hefty penalty.
In 1e, the only casters that did get those buffs were d8HD, 3/4 or divine casters. In 2e, bards, clerics and druids all have better proficiencies than sorcerers.
The replacement for targeting touch AC in this edition is also the high proficiency (up to legendary) for spellcasting, which I agree completely overshadows melee options for a sorcerer. But it's still much better than wading into melee with bloodline claws as a sorcerer in 1e.
They also dont make the worst backup weapon if you're in trouble. I have a dm who loves catching my sorcerer low on spells in 5e and would love to surprise him with a few claw strikes.
I actually just realized that Sorcerers gain expert proficiency in simple weapons at level 11, which explicitly excludes unarmed attacks. Same goes for the simple weapon proficiency increase for Alchemists at level 7.
This now feels like a severe oversight to me rather than an intended rule and something a lot of people would end up houseruling, unless we receive an official errata.
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I actually just realized that Sorcerers gain expert proficiency in simple weapons at level 11, which explicitly excludes unarmed attacks. Same goes for the simple weapon proficiency increase for Alchemists at level 7.
The Alchemist seems to be working as intended, as Mutagenists get Expert in Unarmed as well. The Sorcerer looks like a legitimate oversight, though.
This now feels like a severe oversight to me rather than an intended rule and something a lot of people would end up houseruling, unless we receive an official errata.
I agree on Sorcerer. Alchemist seems to be functioning as intended.
I guess you can call the Sorc claws/vite"backup" weapons, but being your only focus spell for a few levels on the class that best regenerates focus points doesn't scream "backup" to me. These shouldn't really be your defining lv1 ability and instead be a feat you can pick if you want to build a melee sorcerer. The average one has no use for these, making them pretty bad at low levels despite being the most popular bloodlines thematically.
To get mileage out of the claws you'll need 16DEX and some form of AC increase. At level 11+ you'll need an unarmed prof. increase. As others have said, the sorcerer "chassis" is about the worst in the game to have this ability.
The dragon claws do activate blood magic and gives resistance for one element, so use it will have.
A Sorcerer who sees the claws as a backup weapon is going to see them as a pretty piss poor backup weapon, likely worse than flame blade.
I think that the levels where they don't inexplicably suck they're actually pretty good to build for, though. 1d4+1d6+3 is plenty competitive with the single attacks of other martials. I could see 16 STR / 16 DEX / 14 CHA Draconic Sorcerers who's main deal is ripping people up with their claws being a thing - certainly not the best thing, but something you could choose to do without feeling bad about it. If proficiencies are fixed so the claws get bumped up to expert when they're supposed to then this is a build I'd be willing to play.
That's my mistake, I meant Produce Flame. That cantrip's melee version is basically Flame Blade.
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Uh...Champion Multiclass fixes the armor issue. At 14th level. Other people need to worry about it, but not Multiclass Champions.A 2nd-level feat, a 14th-level feat, and some heavy roleplaying baggage make for a considerable opportunity cost.
Which I have complained about in other threads. But you were talking about people who already have Champion Dedication.
You know, the thread title was asking how much of a trap these options are, it's been pointed out how if they're built for they aren't a trap, and yet we're still here...
(Barring of course the proficiency oversight, but that's been covered to completion here and elsewhere)
Such is the nature of the internet forum conversation...
Claws and jaws allow you to provide flanking with free hands.
You just need to be able to do an unarmed attack to provide flanking. No more need of any kind of weapon.
Also, as you are trained in unarmed, it's obvious you're flanking empty handed.I think that the levels where they don't inexplicably suck they're actually pretty good to build for, though. 1d4+1d6+3 is plenty competitive with the single attacks of other martials. I could see 16 STR / 16 DEX / 14 CHA Draconic Sorcerers who's main deal is ripping people up with their claws being a thing - certainly not the best thing, but something you could choose to do without feeling bad about it. If proficiencies are fixed so the claws get bumped up to expert when they're supposed to then this is a build I'd be willing to play.
16 STR + Expert proficiency max means you're doing 30% less damage in the long run just because of misses (if we consider only Trained proficiency, you're doing half damage).
Then, there's the issue of AC which has to be addressed (Champion Dedication is nice, but you also need Fighter Dedication for Expert Proficiency, so it's a long run). And in the end, you don't have hit points to soak damage, especially considering that you'll have hard time bumping constitution. So, not the best thing is an understatement. I don't see a single level where you'll have fun, as you will always lack something to be efficient.You know, the thread title was asking how much of a trap these options are, it's been pointed out how if they're built for they aren't a trap, and yet we're still here...
Well, I think there is no agreement on that at all.
How functional is a dragon sorcerer build with a monk multiclass?
I think it works better as a monk that multiclasses into dragon sorcerer...
Curious; how would you say Bestial Mutagen interacts when used with Dragon Claws?