Converting skill DCs - is there a 1E baseline somewhere ?


Conversions


I am having a glance st some conversions
2E has a table for expected DCs for challenge levels at various levels of gameplay

Is there something similar for 1E so I can try and match these across? E.g what kind of category would a DC14 be for a level 3 1E character ?

And what about saves ? Do I use the high and low for enemy creatures spell DCs from the benchmarking sheet out there ?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

"Climb" has some reference to footholds and handholds in both editions: PF1 reference, PF2 reference

So:
* PF2 Legendary DC is PF1 DC=30
* PF2 Master DC is PF1 DC=25
* PF2 Expert DC is PF1 DC=15 or DC=20
* Others are not so clear

But "honest direct conversion" is impossible. You can do something like this:
* "Untrained DCs" (0-10, maybe 0-12): PF2 = PF1, or maybe PF2 = PF1 - 2
* "Trained DCs" (11-15 or 13-16): PF2=PF1, maybe PF2=PF1-1
* "Expert DCs" (16-20 or 17-21): PF2=PF1+2, maybe PF2=PF1+1
* "master DCs" (21-25 or 22-26): PF2=PF1+4, maybe PF2=PF1+3
* "legendary DCs" (26-30 or 27-31): PF2=PF1+6, maybe PF2=PF1+5
* "epic DCs": no way to guess correct conversion, maybe just keep them as is.

But this way you will never get some DC values when converting PF1→PF2 (like 16-17, 21-22, 26-27 for first versions of DC ranges)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Generally you can guess the conversion by comparing ranges of bonuses gained at different levels in both editions. This works for anything, not just skills.

Skill DCs:
* PF1 bonuses: +0..+23
* PF2 bonuses: +0..+28
* DC conversion: DC₂ₑ = 10 + (DC₁ₑ − 10)×28/23 ~= 10 + (DC₁ₑ − 10)×1.22

Save DCs (purely from bonuses, so this is against effects that are not based on opponents level, e.g. environment effects, hazards, etc):
* PF1 bonuses: +0..+12
* PF2 bonuses: +0..+28
* DC conversion: DC₂ₑ = 10 + (DC₁ₑ − 10)×28/12 ~= 10 + (DC₁ₑ − 10)×2.33

Save DCs (based on DC formulas in both versions, so this are DCs against effects based on opponent level, e.g. creature ability DCs):
* PF1 bonuses: +0..+10 (half the level)
* PF2 bonuses: +3..+28 (full level and trained-legendary proficiencies)
* DC conversion: DC₂ₑ = 10 + 3 + (DC₁ₑ − 10)×(28−3)/10 = 13 + (DC₁ₑ − 10)×2.5

Last formula can also be used to convert AC values of monsters:
AC₂ₑ = 13 + (AC₁ₑ − 10)×2.5

And can be adapted to convert Save bonuses of monsters:
* If PF1 value is 4 or greater: SaveBonus₂ₑ= 2 + (SaveBonus₁ₑ − 2.5)×2.5 [mathematical rounding]
* If PF1 value is 1–3: SaveBonus₂ₑ=SaveBonus₁ₑ

P.S. This all works correctly for DCs/ACs that are greater than or equal to 10


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

At low levels you don't really have to convert much. APs use a lot of DC 10, 15, or 20 checks. Just use those as written. The skill bonus for a trained or expert skill is virtually identical to a PF1 class skill with Max ranks.

By mid-levels you might see some DC 25 checks that you COULD bump up to DC 30 but probably shouldn't.

By high levels it may get a little wonky, but that's because high level skill DCs in PF1 aren't worth much as a usable barometer of chance of success. The variance in skill bonuses is just too high. So you might as well use it there as written too, haha.


Captain Morgan wrote:

At low levels you don't really have to convert much. APs use a lot of DC 10, 15, or 20 checks. Just use those as written. The skill bonus for a trained or expert skill is virtually identical to a PF1 class skill with Max ranks.

By mid-levels you might see some DC 25 checks that you COULD bump up to DC 30 but probably shouldn't.

By high levels it may get a little wonky, but that's because high level skill DCs in PF1 aren't worth much as a usable barometer of chance of success. The variance in skill bonuses is just too high. So you might as well use it there as written too, haha.

Good points. Even if someone is going to use formulas that I've proposed, it can be clearly seen final delta of +5 on high-levels is not a big deal.

With very "linear" and easy conversion (or no changes to DC at all for low levels), I think that it's more important to take into account some nuances of second edition before making any changes to DCs:
* "trained" skills progression for second edition is the same as it was in first edition: +3..+23 in both cases
* At levels 3, 7, 14 second edition characters will have some extra "specialization focus gap" for several chosen skills by improving their proficiency level in some skills.
* Abilities growth is more prominent in second edition, and makes it easier to maximize primary attribute, without worrying too much about over-specialization (because each time character gains abilities boosts, player is forced to increase 4 different abilities). So difference of "min-max" character against "jack-of-all trades" will be even more prominent in second edition at higher levels.
* One might think that above points should be taken as arguments in favor of increasing "hard DCs" as a way to compensate for this "focusing induced gap in skills efficiency", but:
  - Changes to abilities progression and to skills progression together make it possible to "focus" some aspects of player's character to make her/him stand out when compared to other "unfocused characters". And I think that this is one of the greatest things about second edition: players will have much more confidence about their character efficiency in chosen areas. For example bonus at 20th level will be at least 25% better when comparing legendary vs trained proficiencies, and if one accounts for greater ability value of focused character over ability value for "jack-of-all-trades", then difference will be around 35-50%
  - Most characters (except for rogues) will have at most 3 legendary skills, or if they want some diversity, then it will be 1-2 legendary skills with several master or expert skills.
  - Allowing 3 skill-areas of a character to be "that much better" is not a big deal, and should be considered a good motivation for players to plan their party areas of skill expertise to cover weak areas of one another.
* Summary: maybe one should not make any compensations for how faster skills grow in second edition or for how faster abilities grow and simply use DC from first edition without any changes as suggested by Captain Morgan.

Just a reminder: as mentioned in earlier posts, this is only relevant for skill DCs and perception DCs! Progression of save bonuses is very different between editions, and while it's possible to simply scale things proportionally (bonuses +0..+10 to +3..28; DCs 10..20 to 13..38 ), it's still way too rough, because not only "scale" changed in second edition, but the difference between "good" and "bad" saves is changed dramatically: 2 times difference in first edition and 1.3 times difference in second edition.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

To illustrate a couple more points, a legendary skill obviously leave behind the level±class skill formula of yore. But it is pretty muchthe same as a PF1 skill with a +5 item bonus or skill focus. Or the bonus from favored enemy or terrain.

The +1-+3 item bonuses of PF2 could have been represented in lots of ways. PF1 had +2 racial features and lots of cladd skill traits that also gave you +1 on top of it.

But PF1 also had lots of ways to get 1/2 your class level to certain skills. And a much higher cap on ability scores. And aid bonuses could stack much higher. And most of all, they aren't limited to just a couple of sources of bonus like PF2. A character could technically have allllll of those bonuses at once and by 20th level you're talking bout something like level+27 + much higher ability score.

Nor does it wait until high levels to break down. I've seen APs drop +5 skill items at level 1. Level 1! At least the increases in PF2 are predictable.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Conversions / Converting skill DCs - is there a 1E baseline somewhere ? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.