So can you use power attack...? You add an additional dice.
So can you use power attack...? You add an additional dice.
I say yes, but it depends on how you feel as to whether "extra" is extra to the normal dice, or "extra" is modifying the number of normal dice.
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My interpretation is that "additional" damage or effects that remain unlisted such as Rage, Sneak Attack, and Weapon Specialization are not counted as bonuses that affect a battle form's "special statistics".
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My interpretation is that "additional" damage or effects that remain unlisted such as Rage, Sneak Attack, and Weapon Specialization are not counted as bonuses that affect a battle form's "special statistics".
Agreed.
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Nice necro.
We need to keep hammering away at it until it gets resolved.
By the way, you're only Trained with the attacks of Battle Forms, so you get a bonus of 0 from Weapon Specialization.
They're unarmed attacks, and so benefit from your unarmed proficiency, which typically matches the proficiency level of your normal weapons.
Or do you really believe it was the intent of the developers to have higher level battleforms not have any realistic chance of hitting level appropriate enemies?
It would be more accurate to say that if you weren't trained in unarmed attacks (somehow) the battleforms make you trained in them.
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We need to keep hammering away at it until it gets resolved.
keep hammering
there is no answer on any horizon, on any world, on any planedidn’t someone even try a bribe to get this answered?
fwiw, my view is you get what a battleform states and that is it; i.e., any numbers changing is verboten aka you cannot change the numbers in any manner (including semantic acrobatics like ‘but this is an additional thing, not like a special statistics modification thing’)
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Yeah, for what it's worth (which I realize is nothing since I didn't design it) I agree with Deth on this. You essentially just are what you transform into. So, for dragon form you become a dragon. You don't become a dragon rogue, or a dragon druid, just a dragon. Unless the ability says otherwise, of course. After all, if you could become a dragon rogue, then we would need A LOT more clarification on what can and can't be used in this new form. At least, I think that's what they were getting at with "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties." One can argue that something is or isn't affecting the "special statistics" all they want, but I think the "special statistics" isn't necessarily what's listed, but rather the entirety of what essentially functions as your new statblock. These are your new special statistics that override your regular statistics.
That being said, there's one thing that I still have no idea what they mean by: "Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items."
That being said, there's one thing that I still have no idea what they mean by: "Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items."
Constant abilities would be effects that are constant, ie not triggered or activated. Aeon Stones are a can be a good example, if you were to polymorph into a battle form while having a Pearly White Spindle aeon stone, you would still gain the 1 resistance to Negative damage, and the spindle would still heal you for 1 HP each minute, though with how short most battle forms tend to be, that likely won't come up altogether too much.
Basically, if it is just something that an item Does without having to be activated, it is still active. This would mean that if say you had a Belt of Giant Strength, and you used Righteous Might, you would still benefit from the +2 Strength "buff" from the belt.
I would also argue that Righteous Might would also naturally allow you to benefit from things like Weapon Specialization, Sneak Attack, and all those other abilities that add damage to an attack. For all the reasons I stated all the way back in what, March? (Egads, March of 2020! Holy Necro Batman!)
I still have no idea what they mean by: "Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items."
I took this to mean ...
my Brooch of Shielding still automatically absorbs magic missile spells targeting meand stuff like that
Yeaahhh, I guess I said that a little hyperbolically with "have no idea what they mean by"
My guess would be the same. Any gear, whether beneficial or detrimental, that has an effect other than an item bonus that doesn't require player input to activate functions as normally. I guess what I meant is that that's the only part that I personally think is left ambiguous. Though, of course, that's just from my perspective, since clearly others disagree with me about many other parts of how battle forms should work as well.
Either way, thanks for the confirmation that that's at least a reasonable way to interpret it.
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One can argue that something is or isn't affecting the "special statistics" all they want, but I think the "special statistics" isn't necessarily what's listed, but rather the entirety of what essentially functions as your new statblock. These are your new special statistics that override your regular statistics.
I don't think the rules really support this. Yeah, you get a new attack bonus and new strikes to override your old ones, new athletics scores and movement types and AC, but there's nothing to suggest that the rest of your stat block just disappears.
Plus you still rely on your stat block for things like hp, saves, all your skill checks except athletics, etc.
It's not that you become a dragon druid, it's that you're a druid who turns into a dragon and you never stop being a druid in the first place (and you're not turning into an actual dragon either, really).
One can argue that something is or isn't affecting the "special statistics" all they want, but I think the "special statistics" isn't necessarily what's listed, but rather the entirety of what essentially functions as your new statblock. These are your new special statistics that override your regular statistics.I don't think the rules really support this. Yeah, you get a new attack bonus and new strikes to override your old ones, new athletics scores and movement types and AC, but there's nothing to suggest that the rest of your stat block just disappears.
Plus you still rely on your stat block for things like hp, saves, all your skill checks except athletics, etc.
It's not that you become a dragon druid, it's that you're a druid who turns into a dragon and you never stop being a druid in the first place (and you're not turning into an actual dragon either, really).
A fair interpretation for sure. The main reason I see it the way I do is because if that's not the case then the rules aren't clear enough to actually say anything useful, which brings us back to the main point: it's poorly worded.
If what I'm suggesting is the case, then only a few words of clarification would be needed, and I could chalk it up to an oversight. If it's closer to the other interpretation then there would need to be another paragraph at least, maybe 2, to explain how your new stats interact with your old ones. Basically, I'm trying to give Paizo the benefit of the doubt here. Oh, not to mention balance concerns, but we'll ignore that for now.
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I completely disagree with that premise. Like from my perspective you have that entirely backward. Here in this thread we're pretty much just looking for a simple yes/no clarification on additional damage. If instead it's meant to be a total replacement we'd need so much more clarification on how it interacts with everything else and every stat block would have to be much more cohesive.
Having battle forms just replace the things they say they replace and limit you in the way they say they limit you and have everything else function as-is seems so much more straightforward than trying to cobble together an entirely new stat block.
Yeah, for what it's worth (which I realize is nothing since I didn't design it) I agree with Deth on this. You essentially just are what you transform into. So, for dragon form you become a dragon. You don't become a dragon rogue, or a dragon druid, just a dragon. Unless the ability says otherwise, of course. After all, if you could become a dragon rogue, then we would need A LOT more clarification on what can and can't be used in this new form. At least, I think that's what they were getting at with "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties." One can argue that something is or isn't affecting the "special statistics" all they want, but I think the "special statistics" isn't necessarily what's listed, but rather the entirety of what essentially functions as your new statblock. These are your new special statistics that override your regular statistics.
That being said, there's one thing that I still have no idea what they mean by: "Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items."
Squiggit beat me to it. You don't stop being you. If you did, you'd be blind and deaf because none of the forms give you a Perception modifier.
Nice necro.
With it this strong, Pharasma must be quite miffed. ;)
On the topic... I'll just shrug my shoulders and pretend to push a real FAQ button. That's about all we can do until the core book gets a reprint that has an errata for it. Maybe 2030?
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I have April 2028 in the pool
I completely disagree with that premise. Like from my perspective you have that entirely backward. Here in this thread we're pretty much just looking for a simple yes/no clarification on additional damage. If instead it's meant to be a total replacement we'd need so much more clarification on how it interacts with everything else and every stat block would have to be much more cohesive.
Having battle forms just replace the things they say they replace and limit you in the way they say they limit you and have everything else function as-is seems so much more straightforward than trying to cobble together an entirely new stat block.
Fair enough. I haven't really thought too much about that aspect. Either way additional damage is still related to the attacks, which are special statistics given by the form, so my final conclusion on that specifically remains the same. But, I guess you're right: it kind of has to not include other statistics otherwise you don't function as a complete character anymore.
Man... I need to get some more sleep if I missed something that obvious, XD