Bleed is only stopped by magical healing that restores you to maximum HP.
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I thought Bleed was just a type of Persistent Damage (p452). As such, wouldn’t it be stopped by a DC15 flat check (p261)?
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Page 461 in the side bar is where it states this, but it is a guideline.
The GM decides how your help works, using the following examples as guidelines.
there is no sidebar on 461?
I thought Bleed was just a type of Persistent Damage (p452). As such, wouldn’t it be stopped by a DC15 flat check (p261)?
Very much this apart that most of it is noted on page 621.
Bleeding can be stopped by healing to max HP as already mentioned or by succeeding an automatic (end of round) or active/assisted/helped DC15 flat check (Medicine in case of Bleeding).
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So this is what my group spent most our planned game session discussing. Bleed damage.
Here's what we found:
1) Bleed is a kind of Persistent Damage (p. 452).
2) Every time you take Persistent Damage, you gain a DC 15 flat check to end the condition (p. 621).
3) Persistent Damage -usually- ends after a minute (p. 621).
3) Magical Healing does not stop Bleed unless you are fully healed (p. 621)
4) However, non-magical healing -can- stop bleed. The "Administer First Aid" action (part of the Medicine skill) can stop bleed. (p. 248).
And that's where things get really weird.
Notice that if you are trained in Medicine and have healer's tools, you can A) attempt a Medicine check which, if successful, will allow the bleeding character to B) roll another flat check to stop the bleeding.
Why is this weird? Well, look at p. 621 under "Assisted Recovery". There, we're told that if you do something that would reasonably improve your chances of ending the Persistent Damage, the GM can decide what happens. Among the examples given is "use Medicine to Administer First Aid to stanch bleeding."
And an example of what might result is given as: "Reduce the DC of the flat check to 10 for a particularly appropriate type of help..."
Hooookay.
So if I use "Administer First Aid" I can gain a chance to roll against the DC that caused the bleed. But if I do the exact same thing and call it "Assisted Recovery" I can roll against DC 10?
One suggested interpretation was that doing it p. 248's way meant an additional roll before the bleed damage takes place again (since it occurs at the end of the bleeding character's turn), whereas doing it p. 621's way got you a DC 10 check. But even then, one DC 10 check is much better than two DC 15 checks.
So, can somebody riddle this out for me? What's really going on here? What am I missing?
Also, what if I don't have a Healer's kit, but I do apply pressure to the wound, or put on a tourniquet? Should I give a bonus to the DC 15 flat check? If so, then why would I -ever- not do that?
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So, can somebody riddle this out for me? What's really going on here? What am I missing?
Also, what if I don't have a Healer's kit, but I do apply pressure to the wound, or put on a tourniquet? Should I give a bonus to the DC 15 flat check? If so, then why would I -ever- not do that?
Surely the simplest solution to the riddle is that p.248 and p.621 apply jointly, i.e. in the case of First Aid to stop Bleed, the extra flat check you obtain for the victim is at DC 10, not 15. The victim only rolls against DC 15 in the absence of any "particularly appropriate" help.
If you don't have a Healer's Kit, anything else that helps stop bleeding, at GM discretion, could certainly reduce the DC. And for the good of your bleeding-out ally, you should totally always do that "particularly appropriate" thing.
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So if I use "Administer First Aid" I can gain a chance to roll against the DC that caused the bleed. But if I do the exact same thing and call it "Assisted Recovery" I can roll against DC 10?
assisted recovery is the same as administer first aid. It will let you get an extra roll, before more damage is delt.
GM can make the extra roll DC 10 if you have extra special. Like water on fire. Or just flat end it, if you submerge fire in water, or healed someone to max HP.
I would personally add expert medicine gets DC 10, master gets DC 5, and legendary can just end it.
Also, nothing stops the whole party from trying every turn. So even a DC 15 won't last long after battle.
It would be nice to get a ruling on this.
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So, can somebody riddle this out for me? What's really going on here? What am I missing?
Also, what if I don't have a Healer's kit, but I do apply pressure to the wound, or put on a tourniquet? Should I give a bonus to the DC 15 flat check? If so, then why would I -ever- not do that?
Surely the simplest solution to the riddle is that p.248 and p.621 apply jointly, i.e. in the case of First Aid to stop Bleed, the extra flat check you obtain for the victim is at DC 10, not 15. The victim only rolls against DC 15 in the absence of any "particularly appropriate" help.
If you don't have a Healer's Kit, anything else that helps stop bleeding, at GM discretion, could certainly reduce the DC. And for the good of your bleeding-out ally, you should totally always do that "particularly appropriate" thing.
I think Logsig has it right, and I would further add that any magical healing, even if it doesn't get you to full hit points, would count as a Particularly Appropriate response to the bleeding and give the bleeder a DC 10 check.
I could be persuaded that you're right. But I'm surprised that Paizo didn't spell such things out clearly and put everything on one page of the Core Rulebook. It's not like the Bleed rules are an obscure corner situation.
For Medicine checks Pg 248 holds for ending the persistent bleed. Pg 621's GM decides only comes into play when "there's not a specific action that applies". Here we do have a specific action, Administer First Aid. If you're doing something else, like cauterizing the wound with produce flame (ouch!), then you could do the DC 10 to end the bleed.
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For Medicine checks Pg 248 holds for ending the persistent bleed. Pg 621's GM decides only comes into play when "there's not a specific action that applies". Here we do have a specific action, Administer First Aid. If you're doing something else, like cauterizing the wound with produce flame (ouch!), then you could do the DC 10 to end the bleed.
On top of taking some fire damage. Might be worth it for a particularly nasty bleed effect though.