Warpriest vs Fighter Damage comparison


Advice


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So obviously warpriests will do less damage than fighters, but by how much?
I did a simple comparison of a sword and board warpriest vs a similar fighter. I don't know what a warpriest can do to increase damage, but the fighter got certain strike at level 10. They both got elemental runes at levels 8 and 15, that seemed fair to me.

So against level-2 targets a warpriest does about 70% of a fighters damage until level 10, where from then on it does about 50% of a fighters damage. That's much better than I expected!

Sheet comparing them is here


Interesting to know. Thanks for sharing.

I'm much too tired to make sense of everything in the sheet, so please excuse my ignorance, but this is a pure 3 strikes turn without any abilities beyond the mentioned certain strike for the fighter?

Quote:
I don't know what a warpriest can do to increase damage

Align weapon costs an action and is probably not worth it. Maybe at level 14 when it lasts a minute. But the warpriest does get a quasi-permanent +1 damage with Emblazon Armament at level 2. He can increase this to 1d4 (or even 1d6 with the right domain) with Emblazon Energy at level 8.

Nothing to write home about, but it might close the gap a bit.


Yeah I should include those later.

The results for 1, 2, and 3 actions are all about the same. Which is pretty cool.


citricking wrote:

Yeah I should include those later.

The results for 1, 2, and 3 actions are all about the same. Which is pretty cool.

Would be interesting to see how Align Armament -> Strike -> Strike holds up against 3 Strikes. Maybe you could include that as well?


Blave wrote:
citricking wrote:

Yeah I should include those later.

The results for 1, 2, and 3 actions are all about the same. Which is pretty cool.

Would be interesting to see how Align Armament -> Strike -> Strike holds up against 3 Strikes. Maybe you could include that as well?

Yes definitely, thank you. My time with a computer is a little limited, so I might can't update it right now.

I'm planning on doing a more in depth comparison with all the classes too, when I get a chance.


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Channel Smite should do quite a bit of damage... Takes 2 actions but you can channel heal or smite into the strike, so basically +5d8 damage at level 10.

Emblazon Armament gives a +1 status bonus to damage and you can change that to 1d4 or up to 1d6 energy with Emblazon Energy at 8th.


Faenor wrote:
Channel Smite should do quite a bit of damage... Takes 2 actions but you can channel heal or smite into the strike, so basically +5d8 damage at level 10.

And as your third action you can cast harm again, no MAP, even if they make their save, that's still a good bit more damage. Very burst-y though.


Gorum's kind of a no brainer deity choice for a raw DPR cleric, as far as I can tell Zeal is far and away a better choice than any of the other "hit it with a weapon" domains and Gorum gets the best weapon for it (tied with Rovagug but he's not gonna be legal to worship in most cases).


Arachnofiend wrote:
Gorum's kind of a no brainer deity choice for a raw DPR cleric, as far as I can tell Zeal is far and away a better choice than any of the other "hit it with a weapon" domains and Gorum gets the best weapon for it (tied with Rovagug but he's not gonna be legal to worship in most cases).

Weapon Surge is partially obsoleted by having a Bard in the party and completely obsoleted by having a Bard and being high level, though.


Channel smite is a waste of a heal to me. If you're using it that's also not something you can do at will, it's using a valuable resource.

If you're a harm using cleric you could spam harm three times for more burst damage. Channel smite really doesn't get you anything.


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citricking wrote:

Channel smite is a waste of a heal to me. If you're using it that's also not something you can do at will, it's using a valuable resource.

If you're a harm using cleric you could spam harm three times for more burst damage. Channel smite really doesn't get you anything.

If you're a low wisdom warpriest, and/or realize that you're targeting a monster with a high fort save (quite a few of them), it links full harm damage to a weapon strike. Harm, the spell allows a fortitude for half.


citricking wrote:

Channel smite is a waste of a heal to me. If you're using it that's also not something you can do at will, it's using a valuable resource.

If you're a harm using cleric you could spam harm three times for more burst damage. Channel smite really doesn't get you anything.

If you're a harm warpriest it's quite better to smite than to cast harm imo.

Attacks are easier to land than Fort saves and it's a nice "3rd action" if you're two handing a weapon.

But yeah, it's not at will, although it is a nice chunk of burst damage for a few hits per day.


If you're a harm warpriest you have 18 Wis because you don't need cha I think. I'd like to see numbers that indicate it's better to channel smite than to attack and cast separately. Smiting means you lose half damage on a successful save.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
citricking wrote:
If you're a harm warpriest you have 18 Wis because you don't need cha I think. I'd like to see numbers that indicate it's better to channel smite than to attack and cast separately. Smiting means you lose half damage on a successful save.

What do you mean? Channel smite doesn't appear to allow a save.


I updated the sheet with the emblazon and align feats. They add some damage, but don't change the trends too much. Hopefully I'll have more updates this afternoon.


Brew Bird wrote:
citricking wrote:
If you're a harm warpriest you have 18 Wis because you don't need cha I think. I'd like to see numbers that indicate it's better to channel smite than to attack and cast separately. Smiting means you lose half damage on a successful save.
What do you mean? Channel smite doesn't appear to allow a save.

If you miss you use the spell slot but do no damage. If you cast the spell and they save they still take half damage.


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This is why I was shocked they never got Master proficiency on weapons. Up until like lvl 10-11 they do keep up really well in attack/defense, but after that they just stop getting any proficiencies and become garbage at melee. Then you'll wish you were a Cloistered Cleric.


ChibiNyan wrote:
This is why I was shocked they never got Master proficiency on weapons. Up until like lvl 10-11 they do keep up really well in attack/defense, but after that they just stop getting any proficiencies and become garbage at melee. Then you'll wish you were a Cloistered Cleric.

Well, they can get Eternal Blessing at 16 which is a permanent +1 to attack. It's not as good as master proficiency and doesn't stack with most buffs of course, but at the very least it provides a bonus without costing any resources.


Blave wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
This is why I was shocked they never got Master proficiency on weapons. Up until like lvl 10-11 they do keep up really well in attack/defense, but after that they just stop getting any proficiencies and become garbage at melee. Then you'll wish you were a Cloistered Cleric.
Well, they can get Eternal Blessing at 16 which is a permanent +1 to attack. It's not as good as master proficiency and doesn't stack with most buffs of course, but at the very least it provides a bonus without costing any resources.

Righteous Might (6th level, 8th level) and Avatar (10th level) both set your attack value, to +21/+28 and +33 respectively. They're comparable, I think, to other classes that get Master proficiency. If that was the intended route for Warpriests to go, though, there needs to be 7th and 9th level options.

Using these spells has an interesting side effect. Other classes pursue their stat that is tied to accuracy, while the Warpriest would care only so far as to get to 18 Str. Up until they have 6th level spells, they'd want to bump that stat as high as they could. Once they get Righteous Might, they're casting that, or the better versions of it, to begin any encounter in order to establish their combat prowess. Since their value is set by the spell that they cast, they're free to ignore that stat bump and chase other stats. People above were discussing the value of Channel Smite and it's reasonable to build toward maximizing that at some point in the warpriest's career.


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Greg.Everham wrote:
Blave wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
This is why I was shocked they never got Master proficiency on weapons. Up until like lvl 10-11 they do keep up really well in attack/defense, but after that they just stop getting any proficiencies and become garbage at melee. Then you'll wish you were a Cloistered Cleric.
Well, they can get Eternal Blessing at 16 which is a permanent +1 to attack. It's not as good as master proficiency and doesn't stack with most buffs of course, but at the very least it provides a bonus without costing any resources.

Righteous Might (6th level, 8th level) and Avatar (10th level) both set your attack value, to +21/+28 and +33 respectively. They're comparable, I think, to other classes that get Master proficiency. If that was the intended route for Warpriests to go, though, there needs to be 7th and 9th level options.

Using these spells has an interesting side effect. Other classes pursue their stat that is tied to accuracy, while the Warpriest would care only so far as to get to 18 Str. Up until they have 6th level spells, they'd want to bump that stat as high as they could. Once they get Righteous Might, they're casting that, or the better versions of it, to begin any encounter in order to establish their combat prowess. Since their value is set by the spell that they cast, they're free to ignore that stat bump and chase other stats. People above were discussing the value of Channel Smite and it's reasonable to build toward maximizing that at some point in the warpriest's career.

I would say those aren't very good ideas. 6th righteous might doesn't increase your to hit bonus, 8th does by 2 for 1 level only, and 10th by 1 for 1 level. Those spells unfortunately aren't very good.

Channel smite also wastes heals.


Any chance you can check/add the numbers with the +1 attack from eternal blessing at levels 16+?


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citricking wrote:
Greg.Everham wrote:
Blave wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
This is why I was shocked they never got Master proficiency on weapons. Up until like lvl 10-11 they do keep up really well in attack/defense, but after that they just stop getting any proficiencies and become garbage at melee. Then you'll wish you were a Cloistered Cleric.
Well, they can get Eternal Blessing at 16 which is a permanent +1 to attack. It's not as good as master proficiency and doesn't stack with most buffs of course, but at the very least it provides a bonus without costing any resources.

Righteous Might (6th level, 8th level) and Avatar (10th level) both set your attack value, to +21/+28 and +33 respectively. They're comparable, I think, to other classes that get Master proficiency. If that was the intended route for Warpriests to go, though, there needs to be 7th and 9th level options.

Using these spells has an interesting side effect. Other classes pursue their stat that is tied to accuracy, while the Warpriest would care only so far as to get to 18 Str. Up until they have 6th level spells, they'd want to bump that stat as high as they could. Once they get Righteous Might, they're casting that, or the better versions of it, to begin any encounter in order to establish their combat prowess. Since their value is set by the spell that they cast, they're free to ignore that stat bump and chase other stats. People above were discussing the value of Channel Smite and it's reasonable to build toward maximizing that at some point in the warpriest's career.

I would say those aren't very good ideas. 6th righteous might doesn't increase your to hit bonus, 8th does by 2 for 1 level only, and 10th by 1 for 1 level. Those spells unfortunately aren't very good.

Channel smite also wastes heals.

Yeah, looking deeper into the numbers shows you actually REDUCE your attack bonus with Righteous Might, making me wonder wtf that spell is supposed to do. The 8th level Heightening bumps it up by 1, but only for a level. And the 10th level spell doesn't do much either.

It's all just really bad... Why do these spells exist at all, except for a build that doesn't hit things until 12th level, then suddenly decides "You know what, I DO want to be a front line melee combatant."


Blave wrote:
Any chance you can check/add the numbers with the +1 attack from eternal blessing at levels 16+?

I didn't want to put that in at first because it buffs allies just as much as you, but I added it in. It's a really nice buff. They get almost to 70% fighter damage with that.

Soon (hopefully tomorrow) I'll have comparisons with all classes against equal level and flat footed targets too!


Quote:

Yeah, looking deeper into the numbers shows you actually REDUCE your attack bonus with Righteous Might, making me wonder wtf that spell is supposed to do. The 8th level Heightening bumps it up by 1, but only for a level. And the 10th level spell doesn't do much either.

It's all just really bad... Why do these spells exist at all

I think it's more meant for cloistered clerics, to be honest. Just like wizards get dragon form. Those spells are a decent way to be useful during a whole battle without spending multiple spell slots.

Also, it can't actually reduce your attack bonus since it allows you to use your normal attack bonus if it's higher.


Blave wrote:
Quote:

Yeah, looking deeper into the numbers shows you actually REDUCE your attack bonus with Righteous Might, making me wonder wtf that spell is supposed to do. The 8th level Heightening bumps it up by 1, but only for a level. And the 10th level spell doesn't do much either.

It's all just really bad... Why do these spells exist at all

I think it's more meant for cloistered clerics, to be honest. Just like wizards get dragon form. Those spells are a decent way to be useful during a whole battle without spending multiple spell slots.

Also, it can't actually reduce your attack bonus since it allows you to use your normal attack bonus if it's higher.

Yeah, I know it can't step you backward... but it's not just "it breaks even" but it's actually a step back. So the intuitive "This will make me hit things better" doesn't do it at all. Very frustrating.

I agree on your assessment, but it feels like there's not support for Warpriest, then.


Greg.Everham wrote:
citricking wrote:
Greg.Everham wrote:
Blave wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
This is why I was shocked they never got Master proficiency on weapons. Up until like lvl 10-11 they do keep up really well in attack/defense, but after that they just stop getting any proficiencies and become garbage at melee. Then you'll wish you were a Cloistered Cleric.
Well, they can get Eternal Blessing at 16 which is a permanent +1 to attack. It's not as good as master proficiency and doesn't stack with most buffs of course, but at the very least it provides a bonus without costing any resources.

Righteous Might (6th level, 8th level) and Avatar (10th level) both set your attack value, to +21/+28 and +33 respectively. They're comparable, I think, to other classes that get Master proficiency. If that was the intended route for Warpriests to go, though, there needs to be 7th and 9th level options.

Using these spells has an interesting side effect. Other classes pursue their stat that is tied to accuracy, while the Warpriest would care only so far as to get to 18 Str. Up until they have 6th level spells, they'd want to bump that stat as high as they could. Once they get Righteous Might, they're casting that, or the better versions of it, to begin any encounter in order to establish their combat prowess. Since their value is set by the spell that they cast, they're free to ignore that stat bump and chase other stats. People above were discussing the value of Channel Smite and it's reasonable to build toward maximizing that at some point in the warpriest's career.

I would say those aren't very good ideas. 6th righteous might doesn't increase your to hit bonus, 8th does by 2 for 1 level only, and 10th by 1 for 1 level. Those spells unfortunately aren't very good.

Channel smite also wastes heals.

Yeah, looking deeper into the numbers shows you actually REDUCE your attack bonus with Righteous Might, making me wonder wtf that spell is supposed to do. The 8th level Heightening...

1) Warpriest doesn't lose accuracy: there's a clause for "If your attack modifier withyour deity’s favored weapon is higher, you can use it instead."

2) Not all spells are equally valuable to everyone. I suspect that spell might be intended more for cloistered clerics; an option to basically hulk out. Meaning, they did decide at 12 or so they wanted to fight after all.


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About the only thing I wish is that warpriests would get master prof with their deity's favored weapon.

Sure, I guess that promotes mercenary cleric characters who pick deities based on favored weapon, but I still would have liked to see it. I might houserule it that way, possibly at a very late level (17?)


Garretmander wrote:

About the only thing I wish is that warpriests would get master prof with their deity's favored weapon.

Sure, I guess that promotes mercenary cleric characters who pick deities based on favored weapon, but I still would have liked to see it. I might houserule it that way, possibly at a very late level (17?)

All warpriests get a bit further behind martials at level 20, I think it would be a good place to put it as a feat. But that might be too late for you?


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citricking wrote:
Garretmander wrote:

About the only thing I wish is that warpriests would get master prof with their deity's favored weapon.

Sure, I guess that promotes mercenary cleric characters who pick deities based on favored weapon, but I still would have liked to see it. I might houserule it that way, possibly at a very late level (17?)

All warpriests get a bit further behind martials at level 20, I think it would be a good place to put it as a feat. But that might be too late for you?

Thinking about it, I'd probably just include it in the warpriest final doctrine.

Dark Archive

Garretmander wrote:
citricking wrote:
Garretmander wrote:

About the only thing I wish is that warpriests would get master prof with their deity's favored weapon.

Sure, I guess that promotes mercenary cleric characters who pick deities based on favored weapon, but I still would have liked to see it. I might houserule it that way, possibly at a very late level (17?)

All warpriests get a bit further behind martials at level 20, I think it would be a good place to put it as a feat. But that might be too late for you?
Thinking about it, I'd probably just include it in the warpriest final doctrine.

Why not move up their fort bump to 13, then slot in master at 15 (two levels behind everyone else and only for their deities weapon)? If you put it as a captsone or capstone feat you might as well say they never get it because no one ever plays in the L18-L20 range anyways. Every other non-fighter martial is at master by L13. You shouldn't force the class to have 7 dead levels in a single weapon proficiency (L13-L20) or 5 dead levels in casting proficiency (L15-L20) where they are a proficiency rank behind everyone at all times (It makes them the jack of all misses).

Giving them Master at a 2 level delay on a chassis with little feat support for weapons is already going to be challenging enough. You're probably already multi-classing into fighter to get a bunch of delayed feats to feel better in melee. Don't punish the subclass, just make it more desirable rather than less.


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Red Griffyn wrote:
Garretmander wrote:
citricking wrote:
Garretmander wrote:

About the only thing I wish is that warpriests would get master prof with their deity's favored weapon.

Sure, I guess that promotes mercenary cleric characters who pick deities based on favored weapon, but I still would have liked to see it. I might houserule it that way, possibly at a very late level (17?)

All warpriests get a bit further behind martials at level 20, I think it would be a good place to put it as a feat. But that might be too late for you?
Thinking about it, I'd probably just include it in the warpriest final doctrine.

Why not move up their fort bump to 13, then slot in master at 15 (two levels behind everyone else and only for their deities weapon)? If you put it as a captsone or capstone feat you might as well say they never get it because no one ever plays in the L18-L20 range anyways. Every other non-fighter martial is at master by L13. You shouldn't force the class to have 7 dead levels in a single weapon proficiency (L13-L20) or 5 dead levels in casting proficiency (L15-L20) where they are a proficiency rank behind everyone at all times (It makes them the jack of all misses).

Giving them Master at a 2 level delay on a chassis with little feat support for weapons is already going to be challenging enough. You're probably already multi-classing into fighter to get a bunch of delayed feats to feel better in melee. Don't punish the subclass, just make it more desirable rather than less.

they still get 10th level spells. It's not like picking "warpriest" somehow makes you a bad caster.

plus, as an example, from 11th level and onwards you have access to Heroism (6th) on yourself which will give you that extra +2 attack, or, at 15 you get divine aura which is basically +2 to everyone's AC+ chance to blind every enemy that hits you, and etc.

So, if a Warpriest, under self buffs, reaches the attack bonus of a full martal (sans Fighter) and he still has a full spellcaster's progression, i really see no issue.

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