paizo.com Recent Posts in Is a Poison/Venom focused character actually viable now?paizo.com Recent Posts in Is a Poison/Venom focused character actually viable now?2019-08-09T20:30:39Z2019-08-09T20:30:39ZRe: Forums: Advice: Is a Poison/Venom focused character actually viable now?shroudbhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42oxv&page=2?Is-a-PoisonVenom-focused-character-actually#602019-08-09T21:45:19Z2019-08-09T21:11:41Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Cellion wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">shroudb wrote:</div><blockquote> At level 13 the monsters have more than 50% to resist your poisons. A level equal monster has around 60%+ on Fort saves. (just checked the 4 first• monsters in the bestiary at level 13, their Fort were +24/+26/+24/+26. So average +25. Purple worm DC is 32. On average they save on 7, so 70% chance to save...) </blockquote><p>I agree. My calcs assumed 35% chance to fail their save.
<p>If the combats run 6 rounds, you need 3 total reagents per combat. One for poisons, two to generate 6 high level bombs, and zero to generate 6 lower level debilitating bombs with quick alchemy. That gives you five fights per day comfortably at 13th level, even if they're all running 6 rounds.</p>
<p>And I'm not convinced that you need to drop poisons to provide mutagens. Why not both? Two one-hour mutagens is only 1 reagent. You've got 18 to play with at this level. </blockquote><p>18 reagents:
</p>
let's assume you keep 3-4 at minimum for Quick.
<br />
you also prepare for 4 combats. That's around 3 mutagens to have a nice coverage.</p>
<p>you buff yourself and only 1 more target with mutagen, so that's 6 mutagens, so 3 reagents.
<br />
let's say you also have 6 elixirs of life (equivalent to like 3 Heals), that's another 3</p>
<p>For utility you use a few reagents as well, as an example, 2 reagents to give concealment to the fighter/tank/frontline for those 4 battles and 1 reagent for something else (darkvision, antivenom, etc)</p>
<p>so far we are 12-13 reagents spent.
<br />
4 combats of 6 rounds, let's say 1 bomb per round so 6 bombs per combat, or 2 reagents per combat, or 8 more.</p>
<p>i'm already at 20-21 out of my 18 ^^</p>
<p>that's why i said there was NEVER a point where i was "oh i have spare reagents"</p>
<p>realistically, you start sacrificing stuff.
<br />
You cut down utility, maybe drop the life's to 4 from 6, maybe you eyeball that 2 mutagens will last all 4 combats, you cut the "emergency Quick down to 3 from 4, those barely allow you to reach the 18 you have.</p>Cellion wrote:shroudb wrote: At level 13 the monsters have more than 50% to resist your poisons. A level equal monster has around 60%+ on Fort saves. (just checked the 4 first* monsters in the bestiary at level 13, their Fort were +24/+26/+24/+26. So average +25. Purple worm DC is 32. On average they save on 7, so 70% chance to save...)
I agree. My calcs assumed 35% chance to fail their save. If the combats run 6 rounds, you need 3 total reagents per combat. One for poisons, two to generate...shroudb2019-08-09T21:11:41ZRe: Forums: Advice: Is a Poison/Venom focused character actually viable now?SuperBidihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42oxv&page=2?Is-a-PoisonVenom-focused-character-actually#592019-08-09T21:08:49Z2019-08-09T21:08:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Smugmug wrote:</div><blockquote>I'm unsure as to how this is a drawback. Dex also provides armor for you, so it's quite good considering Alchemists only get light armor. Going melee means you either take dex anyways (finesse weapon) or you go strength, where you at least want moderate dex so your armor doesn't suck. Or are you talking about multiclassing into a spellcasting class? </blockquote><p>Dexterity is clearly a very good stat for an Alchemist. If you plan on starting with high Dex, it's great. But if you don't, Bombs quickly fall behind other forms of actions.
</p>
And you can multiclass into a spellcasting class very easily (Wizard being quite obvious). It at least allows you to solve the reagent issue, as you will have cantrips to play with.</p>Smugmug wrote:I'm unsure as to how this is a drawback. Dex also provides armor for you, so it's quite good considering Alchemists only get light armor. Going melee means you either take dex anyways (finesse weapon) or you go strength, where you at least want moderate dex so your armor doesn't suck. Or are you talking about multiclassing into a spellcasting class?
Dexterity is clearly a very good stat for an Alchemist. If you plan on starting with high Dex, it's great. But if you don't, Bombs...SuperBidi2019-08-09T21:08:49ZRe: Forums: Advice: Is a Poison/Venom focused character actually viable now?Cellionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42oxv&page=2?Is-a-PoisonVenom-focused-character-actually#582019-08-09T20:56:03Z2019-08-09T20:56:03Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">shroudb wrote:</div><blockquote> At level 13 the monsters have more than 50% to resist your poisons. A level equal monster has around 60%+ on Fort saves. (just checked the 4 first• monsters in the bestiary at level 13, their Fort were +24/+26/+24/+26. So average +25. Purple worm DC is 32. On average they save on 7, so 70% chance to save...) </blockquote><p>I agree. My calcs assumed 35% chance to fail their save.
<p>If the combats run 6 rounds, you need 3 total reagents per combat. One for poisons, two to generate 6 high level bombs, and zero to generate 6 lower level debilitating bombs with quick alchemy. That gives you five fights per day comfortably at 13th level, even if they're all running 6 rounds.</p>
<p>And I'm not convinced that you need to drop poisons to provide mutagens. Why not both? Two one-hour mutagens is only 1 reagent. You've got 18 to play with at this level.</p>shroudb wrote:At level 13 the monsters have more than 50% to resist your poisons. A level equal monster has around 60%+ on Fort saves. (just checked the 4 first* monsters in the bestiary at level 13, their Fort were +24/+26/+24/+26. So average +25. Purple worm DC is 32. On average they save on 7, so 70% chance to save...)
I agree. My calcs assumed 35% chance to fail their save. If the combats run 6 rounds, you need 3 total reagents per combat. One for poisons, two to generate 6 high level...Cellion2019-08-09T20:56:03ZRe: Forums: Advice: Is a Poison/Venom focused character actually viable now?Smugmughttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42oxv&page=2?Is-a-PoisonVenom-focused-character-actually#572019-08-10T03:23:05Z2019-08-09T20:46:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
And bombs have other drawbacks:
<br />
- You need high Dexterity.
<br />
</blockquote><p>I'm unsure as to how this is a drawback. Dex also provides armor for you, so it's quite good considering Alchemists only get light armor. Going melee means you either take dex anyways (finesse weapon) or you go strength, where you at least want moderate dex so your armor doesn't suck. Or are you talking about multiclassing into a spellcasting class?SuperBidi wrote:And bombs have other drawbacks:
- You need high Dexterity.
I'm unsure as to how this is a drawback. Dex also provides armor for you, so it's quite good considering Alchemists only get light armor. Going melee means you either take dex anyways (finesse weapon) or you go strength, where you at least want moderate dex so your armor doesn't suck. Or are you talking about multiclassing into a spellcasting class?Smugmug2019-08-09T20:46:51ZRe: Forums: Advice: Is a Poison/Venom focused character actually viable now?shroudbhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42oxv&page=2?Is-a-PoisonVenom-focused-character-actually#562019-08-09T21:44:03Z2019-08-09T20:38:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Cellion wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Poisons barely need any character build investment from a bomber and don't use your actions in combat, so they're not competing with bombing in any meaningful way.</p>
<p>If you're rationing infused reagents, then yes, poisons are worse than bombs. But from 8th level onward you have 12+ reagents at your disposal... that's enough for a lot of bombs with advanced alchemy! You can spare a few reagents to create two or three batches of poisons, and add them to your party's martials for spike damage at the start of fights.</p>
<p>At 13th level, a fight might cause you to spend 2 total reagents. Imagine the following:</p>
<p><li> Spend 1 reagent during daily prep to make two doses of purple worm venom with advanced alchemy. Apply the venom to your two melee allies.
<br />
<li> Spend 1 reagent during daily prep to make three greater alchemist's fires, each capable of dealing 3d8+3 persistent +7 splash.
<br />
In combat:
<br />
<li> Action 1 - Quick toss your greater alchemists' fire <avg 20 damage ish>
<br />
<li> Action 2 - Quick Alchemy for a moderate bottled lightning (no reagent cost due to Perpetual Potency), enhanced with debilitating bomb
<br />
<li> Action 3 - Toss bottled lightning <avg 10 damage ish, if it lands (~25% chance), makes enemy flatfooted and clumsy 1>
<br />
<li> Nonaction - Two melee allies attack, each one delivering one dose of purple worm poison over the course of their two attacks. <avg 8.5 dmg per dose, if the enemy doesn't save (~35% to fail) also makes them enfeebled 2>
<br />
<li> Remaining two rounds, you repeat your actions from round 1, using up your remaining two alchemist's fires.</p>
<p>In round one, your total DPR is 47, and you've possibly inflicted flatfooted, clumsy 1 and enfeebled 2. This is a big round, and the contribution from poisons is significant. </blockquote><p>at level 13 the monsters have more than 50% to resist your poisons. A level equal monster has around 60%+ on Fort saves. (just checked the 4 first• monsters in the bestiary at level 13, their Fort were +24/+26/+24/+26. So average +25. Purple worm DC is 32. On average they save on 7, so 70% chance to save...)
<p>•different first, since the first three were actually all dragons, i only checked 1 dragon and then moved to the rest.</p>
<p>Using the same 1 reagent to give 1hour mutagens to 2 allies for an hour each will be overall higher contribution.</p>
<p>You also didn't account for any elixir or mutagen in your calculation and you used a 3 round combat in level 13 that the average duration is much higher, more than double that, in our playtests.</p>
<p>I expect around 4-5 reagents in a typical fight without using poisons and using minimal buffs on myself/allies. So that's around 3-4 battles per day.</p>
<p>Again:
<br />
never ever have i been in a situation that i had "spare" reagents. If i had more reagents, i'm sure i would have used those as well...</p>Cellion wrote:Poisons barely need any character build investment from a bomber and don't use your actions in combat, so they're not competing with bombing in any meaningful way.
If you're rationing infused reagents, then yes, poisons are worse than bombs. But from 8th level onward you have 12+ reagents at your disposal... that's enough for a lot of bombs with advanced alchemy! You can spare a few reagents to create two or three batches of poisons, and add them to your party's martials for...shroudb2019-08-09T20:38:35ZRe: Forums: Advice: Is a Poison/Venom focused character actually viable now?SuperBidihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42oxv&page=2?Is-a-PoisonVenom-focused-character-actually#552019-08-09T20:36:51Z2019-08-09T20:36:51Z<p>I'll have the impress to repeat what Cellion said :)</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">shroudb wrote:</div><blockquote><p>sure, let's use your level:</p>
<p>2d8+4splash+2 persistent is on average 9+4+6= 19 damage, minimum 4
<br />
5d6, is on average 17 damage, minimum 0.</p>
<p>even using your level, bomb is still more damage, and it has a higher floor (4 instead of 0) and it has 4 damage splash, so even hitting 1 more target brings it up to 23
<br />
</blockquote><p>Reagent wise, you're right. But while you are tossing bombs, I'm doing something else which will also contribute to damage. And if you add the damage I do on top of the damage the poison does, then I go far above your bombs (I hope, at level 8, to be able to contribute for more than 3 damage per actions, as I should be able to do that at level 2).
</p>
And bombs have other drawbacks:
<br />
- You need high Dexterity.
<br />
- You are affected by many things (concealment, cover, range) while poison is only affected by Fortitude saves, which can hardly be increased due to environment (quite the opposite in fact).</p>
<p>Also, during the playtest, poisons were expanded on a miss. Now, they are far better.</p>I'll have the impress to repeat what Cellion said :)
shroudb wrote:sure, let's use your level:
2d8+4splash+2 persistent is on average 9+4+6= 19 damage, minimum 4
5d6, is on average 17 damage, minimum 0.
even using your level, bomb is still more damage, and it has a higher floor (4 instead of 0) and it has 4 damage splash, so even hitting 1 more target brings it up to 23
Reagent wise, you're right. But while you are tossing bombs, I'm doing something else which will also contribute to...SuperBidi2019-08-09T20:36:51ZRe: Forums: Advice: Is a Poison/Venom focused character actually viable now?Cellionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42oxv&page=2?Is-a-PoisonVenom-focused-character-actually#542019-08-09T20:30:39Z2019-08-09T20:21:45Z<p>Poisons barely need any character build investment from a bomber and don't use your actions in combat, so they're not competing with bombing in any meaningful way.</p>
<p>If you're rationing infused reagents, then yes, poisons are worse than bombs. But from 8th level onward you have 12+ reagents at your disposal... that's enough for a lot of bombs with advanced alchemy! You can spare a few reagents to create two or three batches of poisons, and add them to your party's martials for spike damage at the start of fights.</p>
<p>At 13th level, a fight might cause you to spend 2 total reagents. Imagine the following:</p>
<p><li> Spend 1 reagent during daily prep to make two doses of purple worm venom with advanced alchemy. Apply the venom to your two melee allies.
<br />
<li> Spend 1 reagent during daily prep to make three greater alchemist's fires, each capable of dealing 3d8+3 persistent +7 splash.
<br />
In combat:
<br />
<li> Action 1 - Quick toss your greater alchemists' fire <avg 20 damage ish>
<br />
<li> Action 2 - Quick Alchemy for a moderate bottled lightning (no reagent cost due to Perpetual Potency), enhanced with debilitating bomb
<br />
<li> Action 3 - Toss bottled lightning <avg 10 damage ish, if it lands (~25% chance), makes enemy flatfooted and clumsy 1>
<br />
<li> Nonaction - Two melee allies attack, each one delivering one dose of purple worm poison over the course of their two attacks. <avg 8.5 dmg per dose, if the enemy doesn't save (~35% to fail) also makes them enfeebled 2>
<br />
<li> Remaining two rounds, you repeat your actions from round 1, using up your remaining two alchemist's fires.</p>
<p>In round one, your total DPR is 47, and you've possibly inflicted flatfooted, clumsy 1 and enfeebled 2. This is a big round, and the contribution from poisons is significant.</p>Poisons barely need any character build investment from a bomber and don't use your actions in combat, so they're not competing with bombing in any meaningful way.
If you're rationing infused reagents, then yes, poisons are worse than bombs. But from 8th level onward you have 12+ reagents at your disposal... that's enough for a lot of bombs with advanced alchemy! You can spare a few reagents to create two or three batches of poisons, and add them to your party's martials for spike damage at...Cellion2019-08-09T20:21:45ZRe: Forums: Advice: Is a Poison/Venom focused character actually viable now?shroudbhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42oxv&page=2?Is-a-PoisonVenom-focused-character-actually#532019-08-09T20:30:39Z2019-08-09T19:32:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">shroudb wrote:</div><blockquote>Compare an actual level, like 7, where your bombs deal 2d8+4splash+2 persistent vs a level 7 poison dealing 2d6 on a failed save..</blockquote><p>Or we could compare an "actual level", like 8, where poisons deal 5d6 damage and bombs 2d8+4splash+2 persistent.
</p>
Taking the levels where poisons are specifically bad is not exactly proving anything. At least, at level 1, poisons and bombs are equaly bad, so it's a fair comparison.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">shroudb wrote:</div><blockquote>are you seriously implying that using all your reagents to do 30 damage, and for the whole day being literally a peasant with a crossbow, is good damage?</blockquote>I think we will never agree. You dislike the current state of the Alchemist, and you don't want to hear people who disagree with you. I don't say that I'm right, but I clearly think that you're wrong. You will never like it if you never want to hear other points of view. </blockquote><p>sure, let's use your level:
<p>2d8+4splash+2 persistent is on average 9+4+6= 19 damage, minimum 4
<br />
5d6, is on average 17 damage, minimum 0.</p>
<p>even using your level, bomb is still more damage, and it has a higher floor (4 instead of 0) and it has 4 damage splash, so even hitting 1 more target brings it up to 23</p>
<p>how is poison "better"?</p>
<p>p.s.
<br />
regarding my views on poison: i really want it to work, in the playtest i actually tested 2 alchemists focused on poison, and that was when there were actual poison feats on the feat list. It's not that "i don't want to hear" it's that i really did try it, because it IS one of my favorite archetypes.</p>
<p>if someone does found a way to make it work, all the props to him, i'll even use his idea and make an npc out of it, but simply making the core poisons and coating stuff with them, instead of using the same resources on other things, is simply bad at this point.</p>
<p>that's also why i said "it might work WHEN we get actual poison archetypes (arg is said to have at least 1)" because i expect the several issues poisons have to be adressed with said archetypes.</p>SuperBidi wrote:shroudb wrote:Compare an actual level, like 7, where your bombs deal 2d8+4splash+2 persistent vs a level 7 poison dealing 2d6 on a failed save..
Or we could compare an "actual level", like 8, where poisons deal 5d6 damage and bombs 2d8+4splash+2 persistent.
Taking the levels where poisons are specifically bad is not exactly proving anything. At least, at level 1, poisons and bombs are equaly bad, so it's a fair comparison. shroudb wrote:are you seriously implying that using...shroudb2019-08-09T19:32:06ZRe: Forums: Advice: Is a Poison/Venom focused character actually viable now?SuperBidihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42oxv&page=2?Is-a-PoisonVenom-focused-character-actually#522019-08-09T20:30:39Z2019-08-09T19:28:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">shroudb wrote:</div><blockquote>Compare an actual level, like 7, where your bombs deal 2d8+4splash+2 persistent vs a level 7 poison dealing 2d6 on a failed save..</blockquote><p>Or we could compare an "actual level", like 8, where poisons deal 5d6 damage and bombs 2d8+4splash+2 persistent.
</p>
Taking the levels where poisons are specifically bad is not exactly proving anything. At least, at level 1, poisons and bombs are equaly bad, so it's a fair comparison.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">shroudb wrote:</div><blockquote>are you seriously implying that using all your reagents to do 30 damage, and for the whole day being literally a peasant with a crossbow, is good damage?</blockquote><p>I think we will never agree. You dislike the current state of the Alchemist, and you don't want to hear people who disagree with you. I don't say that I'm right, but I clearly think that you're wrong. You will never like it if you never want to hear other points of view.shroudb wrote:Compare an actual level, like 7, where your bombs deal 2d8+4splash+2 persistent vs a level 7 poison dealing 2d6 on a failed save..
Or we could compare an "actual level", like 8, where poisons deal 5d6 damage and bombs 2d8+4splash+2 persistent.
Taking the levels where poisons are specifically bad is not exactly proving anything. At least, at level 1, poisons and bombs are equaly bad, so it's a fair comparison. shroudb wrote:are you seriously implying that using all your...SuperBidi2019-08-09T19:28:37ZRe: Forums: Advice: Is a Poison/Venom focused character actually viable now?shroudbhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42oxv&page=2?Is-a-PoisonVenom-focused-character-actually#512019-08-09T20:30:39Z2019-08-09T19:10:30Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">shroudb wrote:</div><blockquote>A bomb doesn't have that peak, but deals respectable damage and has a floor of 4 damage at that level.</blockquote><p>Let me take an example to explain you what I mean:
<p>Level 1 "Poisoned" crossbow VS Level 1 Alchemist's Fire.
<br />
2 actions to load and attack (with a feat, you can compare a "poisoned" bow and Quick Bomber Alchemist's Fire, it's exactly the same).</p>
<p>On a hit, both deal 1d8 damage. Alchemist's Fire deals 1 persistent damage and 1 splash damage. Poisoned crossbow gives a save for 1d6 extra damage and potentially more damage after one round (hence highly improbable).
<br />
On a miss, Alchemist's Fire deals 1 splash damage. On a miss (non critical one), poison is not expanded.</p>
<p>So, in my opinion, poison's better. We may argue on that, but stating that bomb is plain better is clearly false.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">shroudb wrote:</div><blockquote>C) it's not free. It costs reagents. Reagents are much more valuable than doing cantrip level damage one time per combat even if it's a "free action".</blockquote><p>I completely disagree with that. A level 1 Alchemist can do roughly 10 alchemical items. Giant Centipede Venom has a damage expectancy of 3 points against an average CR1 creature. We are speaking of 30 points of damage for free (and I insist on the "for free"). A wizard using cantrips will need 10 rounds to catch up with that amount of damage, rounds during which I'll be a paysant with a crossbow, still, I'll continue to do damage. If he doesn't get into his limited spells, he'll be behind.
</p>
So, that's far from cantrip damage, it's potentially very good.
<br />
And you get more and more reagents by gaining levels, doubling them by level 6. So, the reagent issue becomes less and less of an issue. </blockquote><p>are you seriously implying that using all your reagents to do 30 damage, and for the whole day being literally a peasant with a crossbow, is good damage?
<p>30 damage is like 2-3 hits from a martial at level 1</p>
<p>again, it's as free as saying "opening every fight in a day with max level fireballs is free damage"</p>
<p>It really, isn't.</p>
<p>also, at level 1 bobms are terrible, we already know that. At level 1, alchemist in general is beyond terrible, we also know that.</p>
<p>Compare an actual level, like 7, where your bombs deal 2d8+4splash+2 persistent (and they really deal that from level 4, level 4 poisons don't even begin to scratch that) vs a level 7 poison dealing 2d6 on a failed save..</p>SuperBidi wrote:shroudb wrote:A bomb doesn't have that peak, but deals respectable damage and has a floor of 4 damage at that level.
Let me take an example to explain you what I mean: Level 1 "Poisoned" crossbow VS Level 1 Alchemist's Fire.
2 actions to load and attack (with a feat, you can compare a "poisoned" bow and Quick Bomber Alchemist's Fire, it's exactly the same).
On a hit, both deal 1d8 damage. Alchemist's Fire deals 1 persistent damage and 1 splash damage. Poisoned crossbow gives...shroudb2019-08-09T19:10:30Z