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Piggybacking off of this thread I really want to discuss the limitations of character concepts within the realm of society play. Particularly with the use of learning spells, but this also very much applies to magic items, feats, and mundane equipment too.
As it is right now (and hopefully this will change when the actual society role play guide is released), all common equipment with an item level of your level or lower is always available to purchase. To purchase uncommon or rarer equipment, it has to be your level or lower AND appear on a chronicle sheet. In the case of uncommon equipment, it could also be purchased if you have a feat or ability that explicitly opens up uncommon options for you, such as weapon familiarity ancestry feats.
There is also the Home Region slotless boon which grants access to uncommon equipment based on your region.
So from what I can tell there is a huge issue that society play is going to face that home games uniquely don’t have to. And that’s how the game will support players who wish to play very specific character concepts. Examples are found in the thread I linked above. How often can we rely on encountering a particular wizard with exactly the spell we want for a build in their spellbook, at an appropriate time for us to be able to learn such an uncommon spell like teleport? Or a cleric to use Circle of Protection?
If I want to make a character concept that, at its core, requires the use of particular uncommon equipment feats or spells, how does Society handle that? PF2 wants to put that sort of power in the GMs hands, allowing someone who wants to make a specific character to actually do so. But GMs don’t have that authority in society play to allow players access to that.
I’m afraid a lot of people are going to be turned off from 2e Society play because too many things that would be core to a character concept would be unavailable because they’re labeled uncommon.
And I don’t believe the answer should be making them available in the form of feats; it wouldn’t make sense in my mind for availability to come from skill or class feats, and general feats are so limited already (we only get 5 throughout our whole career! And PFS probably won’t be going to level 20 very often!) that it really wouldn’t be fair to force players to pick up a general feat for that when other players can pick whatever else they want.
Boon rewards probably makes the most sense, being able to gain access to equipment based on reputation, but I didn’t see that as an option when I looked through the online guide.
And this whole thing is primarily for uncommon stuff; I think between that and common items, most people will be satisfied in whatever concept they have. Rare and unique items being accessible through special boons or rewards makes sense for the most part. I just don’t want to be stuck with needing to go through particular adventures to get an item on my chronicle sheet that is a big part of a character’s concept. And I’m concerned that is what is about to happen.
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And that’s how the game will support players who wish to play very specific character concepts.There's a good chance they won't. Not all concepts are suitable for Society play.
Examples are found in the thread I linked above. How often can we rely on encountering a particular wizard with exactly the spell we want for a build in their spellbook, at an appropriate time for us to be able to learn such an uncommon spell like teleport? Or a cleric to use Circle of Protection?I would hold off and simply ask when the Scenarios come out if that's a viable reward from it.
If I want to make a character concept that, at its core, requires the use of particular uncommon equipment feats or spells, how does Society handle that?Again, that might not work in Society play.
I’m afraid a lot of people are going to be turned off from 2e Society play because too many things that would be core to a character concept would be unavailable because they’re labeled uncommon
This isn't any different than PFS 1e with Resources and Campaign Clarifications, whole swathes of stuff was not allowed or tweaked.
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Nah, this is a much better policy, i.e. a better decision overall for the campaign, than an alternative that would open up uncommon/rare items for wide use
Helps constrain power creep through elaborate builds using unexpected combos of uncommon resources
Lets the uncommon/rare options be more interesting/powerful bc they've got that rarity toggle to restrict them
Helps rewards of uncommon/rare options be more special and interesting
And really, most of the uncommon options are accessible via class choices so it's not like they're off the table
So sure, there may be some cases where you can't play a specific build bc a specific option is rarity restricted and you don't have a way to access it. But I don't see that becoming a huge issue of any sort. And looks to me like that cost is worth benefits like those above
Organized play isn't as flexible as home games. That's inherent in its nature and leads to perennial expressions of frustration (esp. hypothetical/anticipated frustration). But PFS seems to manage this kind of thing very well overall and I expect it'll actually be a lot better in the new edition
So, *shrug*
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I think the main problem is that it sounds like pretty baseline stuff we used to do in society are no longer accessible - and the Society getting weaker doesn't sit well with lots of us.
The other issue is, without reliable access to uncommon things, why waste time printing them? Every uncommon item will just serve to be either chronicle fodder or wasted ink because nobody will get to use them.
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I think the main problem is that it sounds like pretty baseline stuff we used to do in society are no longer accessible - and the Society getting weaker doesn't sit well with lots of us.... how often were you using teleport in PFS 1e?
The other issue is, without reliable access to uncommon things, why waste time printing them? Every uncommon item will just serve to be either chronicle fodder or wasted ink because nobody will get to use them.
Uh, just because you can't get them in PFS doesn't mean I can use them in my home game.
Venture-Agent, California—Sacramento
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I welcome these changes and agree with what Rysky and tqomins have said.
If anything It might discourage some munchkin type characters (That never really made sense lore wise), but personally I see this as plus. (Characters more integrated into the campaign).
Why print these options if we cant use them in PFS? Well.. Pathfinder is much much greater then PFS, and as mentioned these options can allways be used in your home games.
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I think the main problem is that it sounds like pretty baseline stuff we used to do in society are no longer accessible - and the Society getting weaker doesn't sit well with lots of us.... how often were you using teleport in PFS 1e?The other issue is, without reliable access to uncommon things, why waste time printing them? Every uncommon item will just serve to be either chronicle fodder or wasted ink because nobody will get to use them.Uh, just because you can't get them in PFS doesn't mean I can use them in my home game.
Teleport is not the only uncommon spell in 2e, and I was just using that as an example. But a Cleric using Circle of Protection would easily want to use that spell pretty often and that is just as uncommon. Allegro, Discern Lies, Detect Poison, and so many other spells are just walled off for little reason, and with little indication that players will be able to gain access to such a spell.
By the way if you haven't looked over all the uncommon spells- just spells alone, not even other options- you'll see a good number of spells that were commonly found in PFS.I really don't like the implication that I have to do something special or play a certain scenario so my cleric can learn Raise Dead.
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I think the main problem is that it sounds like pretty baseline stuff we used to do in society are no longer accessible - and the Society getting weaker doesn't sit well with lots of us.... how often were you using teleport in PFS 1e?The other issue is, without reliable access to uncommon things, why waste time printing them? Every uncommon item will just serve to be either chronicle fodder or wasted ink because nobody will get to use them.Uh, just because you can't get them in PFS doesn't mean I can use them in my home game.
Whenever I was high enough level and the scenario benefited from it. Only a few times, but getting teleported by the society wasn't an uncommon thing. And I sure as heck used Raise Dead more often than I wanted.
And I don't really know how else to put it, but your home game isn't the most ubiquitous avenue of play. That's not an argument, especially when we're specifically talking about Society.
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I think the main problem is that it sounds like pretty baseline stuff we used to do in society are no longer accessible - and the Society getting weaker doesn't sit well with lots of us.... how often were you using teleport in PFS 1e?The other issue is, without reliable access to uncommon things, why waste time printing them? Every uncommon item will just serve to be either chronicle fodder or wasted ink because nobody will get to use them.Uh, just because you can't get them in PFS doesn't mean I can use them in my home game.Whenever I was high enough level and the scenario benefited from it. Only a few times, but getting teleported by the society wasn't an uncommon thing. And I sure as heck used Raise Dead more often than I wanted.
And I don't really know how else to put it, but your home game isn't the most ubiquitous avenue of play. That's not an argument, especially when we're specifically talking about Society.
Playing with people you distrust so much that you need the devs to specifically stop them from screwing with you is also not the most ubiquitous avenue of play, believe it or not.
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Raise Dead is a ritual, but the NPCs will still have access to to it and teleport for getting agents to and fro.
@Syries some (probably a lot) of those spells are Uncommon because they are Class specific and then Bloodline/Doctrine/School specific. And then some are Focus Spells which also follow the above. You don’t have to “jump through hoops” for those, they come with the class selections.
Augment Summoning for example you immediately get for being a Conjurer.
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There is a marked theme with some of the uncommonings,restricted access expands stories. Teleport invalidated loads of stories, detect poison outright removes interesting detective work etc.
I can see why they'd want to restrict such things.
Or you could, ya know, write appropriate stories for the setting.
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By the way if you haven't looked over all the uncommon spells- just spells alone, not even other options- you'll see a good number of spells that were commonly found in PFS.
** spoiler omitted **
^ This list includes focus spells. Which are class powers accessible by class choices. It doesn't really speak to the purported "problem" here. There's plenty of good reason to prevent a Cleric from grabbing the "uncommon" focus spell granted by, say, a domain their deity doesn't have, or a sorcerer bloodline, or whatever
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Or you could, ya know, write appropriate stories for the setting.There is a marked theme with some of the uncommonings,restricted access expands stories. Teleport invalidated loads of stories, detect poison outright removes interesting detective work etc.
I can see why they'd want to restrict such things.
They now will be because this is a setting where those kinds of things are uncommon. Which is much more akin to the lore of the setting anyway
And PFS is rather big on lore from my recollection...
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Or you could, ya know, write appropriate stories for the setting.There is a marked theme with some of the uncommonings,restricted access expands stories. Teleport invalidated loads of stories, detect poison outright removes interesting detective work etc.
I can see why they'd want to restrict such things.
Is it even worth pointing out that the rarity toggles reflect the setting? This option or that option are not-common in Golarion, in the Inner Sea, in the setting for the PFS campaign. You want a different setting, play a different campaign
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I think it's worth pointing out too that some of the "rare" options are actually mechanically different or in some cases "better".
Sawtooth sabres are a very restricted item, but they're also the highest damage dice on a 1-handed agile weapon too *and* the only weapon with the Twin trait. If access was not restricted, they would likely end up being the only choice for TWF characters.
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Achievement Points: By playing, running, and reporting Pathfinder Society games, participants earn Achievement Points (abbreviated ACP), a special online currency with which they can purchase special rewards like access to uncommon ancestries, items, spells, and more.
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Come on, no need for names. Behave.My apologies, I was making a Vampire Hunter D reference.And we're talking about Society play here. Mr Rogers having cancer isn't cured by your neighbours being fine.... what
The depths of a disagreement might not be the best time for such references.
And the Mr Rogers thing was trying to emphasize that something working in your private games has no effect on society play and it's different needs due to the scale of the game and it's play experience goals.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Southwest
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By the way if you haven't looked over all the uncommon spells- just spells alone, not even other options- you'll see a good number of spells that were commonly found in PFS.
** spoiler omitted **...
Umm... that list includes a bunch of Focus spells that you can indeed have in Society play. They generally require a Class Feat. For instance Dirge of Doom, Allegro, Counter Performance and more are all available to Bards who have selected them as class feats. That list includes a host of others from other classes that are totally available if you select that class feat.
Sawtooth sabres are a very restricted item, but they're also the highest damage dice on a 1-handed agile weapon too *and* the only weapon with the Twin trait. If access was not restricted, they would likely end up being the only choice for TWF characters.
Umm, the bit about the Twin trait is true, but the damage dice isn't. According to the core rulebook they do 1d6, same as a shortsword. Archive of Nethys says 1d8, but that seems to be an error.
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I experienced this myself as my halfling rogue dual-wielding kukri is not currently possible. But that doesn’t stop me from playing the game. There are plenty other character builds I am interested in until such time as the option I want becomes available. The minute I read about rarity, I knew it was going to be a problem for some people.
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The rarity isn't stopping me from wanting to play the game- far from it.
I'm merely expressing concern about how rarity is going to be handled for a campaign with a huge melting pot of people from all over the world going on adventures all over the world and even to different planes.
If I go on an adventure to Qadira can I stop at a local market to purchase a weapon that's common to the area (aka a kukri) or do I just have to get lucky and find it on a chronicle sheet?
If I'm by the Acadamae, can I spend my downtime researching an uncommon spell to learn?
I'm honestly fine with having a rarity system, but I think the hard-set rules for how uncommon+ things are handled aren't going to translate very smoothly to PFS. It's going to bum me out so much if I have to research what I get on my chronicle sheets before I play an adventure, so I know who I want to bring to the game.
Rare and Unique items being severely limited? That's fine, because it indicates it's so hard to come by only a select few people can get/make the thing (rare) or it's literally one of a kind (unique). But Uncommon falls under neither of those, so I feel there should be a system in place where a person can consistently obtain uncommon items for their characters.
Achievement Points: By playing, running, and reporting Pathfinder Society games, participants earn Achievement Points (abbreviated ACP), a special online currency with which they can purchase special rewards like access to uncommon ancestries, items, spells, and more.
If that's the case, that really helps alleviate my concerns. That being said, hopefully a player can obtain enough achievement points to acquire uncommon items/abilities at a reasonable rate.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I experienced this myself as my halfling rogue dual-wielding kukri is not currently possible. But that doesn’t stop me from playing the game. There are plenty other character builds I am interested in until such time as the option I want becomes available. The minute I read about rarity, I knew it was going to be a problem for some people.
We might have to wait until the world guide releases or we get some clarification to which region Kukris belong. Fortunately, weapon focus is no longer a thing and you can likely move your runes.
By the way if you haven't looked over all the uncommon spells- just spells alone, not even other options- you'll see a good number of spells that were commonly found in PFS.
This list appears to contain the focus powers for all the classes, which are perfectly accessible without a chronicle sheet to characters who made the appropriate choices during creation or level up.
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Sawtooth sabres are a very restricted item, but they're also the highest damage dice on a 1-handed agile weapon too *and* the only weapon with the Twin trait. If access was not restricted, they would likely end up being the only choice for TWF characters.Umm, the bit about the Twin trait is true, but the damage dice isn't. According to the core rulebook they do 1d6, same as a shortsword. Archive of Nethys says 1d8, but that seems to be an error.
Well good, this is what I get for making a comment at work and pulling AoN as my reference :P
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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So I removed the focus powers, and tried to cluster/guess why the spells were uncommon:
INTRIGUE: REVEALS PLOT OR HIDES FROM DETECTION
Detect Alignment
Detect Poison
Detect Scrying
Discern Lies
Discern Location
Drop Dead
False Vision
Glibness
Hallucinatory Terrain
Locate
Mind Blank
Mind Probe
Mind Reading
Modify Memory
Nondetection
Read Omens
Scrying
Stone Tell
Talking Corpse
Telepathic Bond
Tongues
Undetectable Alignment
POCKET PARADISE: EASILY SET UP A REALLY SAFE RESTING PLACE ANYWHERE
Circle of Protection
Magnificent Mansion
Private Sanctum
Protection (this one I don't really understand, it doesn't seem that fundamental)
Rope Trick
TRAVEL & RESTRICTIONS: PCs SUDDENLY TELEPORTING OFF THE RAILS
Dimensional Lock
Ethereal Jaunt
Gate
Passwall
Plane Shift
Shadow Walk
Teleport
Tree Stride
SOUL MAGIC
Bind Soul
Dominate
Possession
Raise Dead
Crusade
ANTIMAGIC
Disjunction
Globe of Invulnerability
Spell Turning
NO SAVE
Power Word Blind
Power Word Kill
Power Word Stun
Reverse Gravity
Remake (recreates destroyed magic items and MacGuffins)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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This doesn't do much for the perception that 2e limits ideas for characters by not letting you build what you want
Yeah, I'm kinda heartbroken I can't buy spaceships with my starting cash in 2E. On the plus side, I can make a non-human archer who doesn't suck at level 1. It's like the new system isn't 100% good or bad.
Seriously, looking at the list of uncommon spells, it seems like there's two big things that they wanted the GM to have more control over.
One is intrigue. In PF1 they had to write a whole chapter in Ultimate Intrigue for GMs frustrated because people kept solving plots with low level divination spells. A lot of classic detective stories were not really possible in PF1 because nonmagical villains just weren't able to cover their crimes well enough. Making almost all those spells uncommon and then allowing the GM to decide whether to allow access, gives GMs the choice what kind of campaign they want to do. Instead of having to comb through the cleric's default spell list crossing things out.
The other one is movement, I think pretty much all spells that allow you to teleport/planar travel/whatever through an opaque barrier are uncommon. Note that Dimension Door isn't uncommon; but you can't take your friends with you and you have to have line of sight. The setup is clearly to make Scry & Fry a GM choice instead of a default option.
Seriously, looking at the list of uncommon spells, it seems like there's two big things that they wanted the GM to have more control over.One is intrigue. In PF1 they had to write a whole chapter in Ultimate Intrigue for GMs frustrated because people kept solving plots with low level divination spells. A lot of classic detective stories were not really possible in PF1 because nonmagical villains just weren't able to cover their crimes well enough. Making almost all those spells uncommon and then allowing the GM to decide whether to allow access, gives GMs the choice what kind of campaign they want to do. Instead of having to comb through the cleric's default spell list crossing things out.
The other one is movement, I think pretty much all spells that allow you to teleport/planar travel/whatever through an opaque barrier are uncommon. Note that Dimension Door isn't uncommon; but you can't take your friends with you and you have to have line of sight. The setup is clearly to make Scry & Fry a GM choice instead of a default option.
Thats nice for home games, but what does all that have to do with Society games?
Venture-Agent
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Thats nice for home games, but what does all that have to do with Society games?
Society games are even more likely to have characters break scenarios, that's the nature of not usually having the same play group week after week and being able to take your character anywhere. If anything, uncommon game breaking options being uncommon is more helpful for society than home games since there's not usually the negotiate your character with your GM to make sure it works with what the GM has planned aspect that many home groups engage in.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Well gnomes (and therefore humans) can already get them. But they don't increase their proficiency beyond trained very easily, so I don't think it's actually worth it.Reading the entry it seems gnomes get proficiency but not access, which is odd and perhaps unintentional.
I thought (but don't have a source handy) that if you specifically gain proficiency in an uncommon thing that you also get access to it.
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Or it will make people mad because they cannot play the character they want because of rarity restrictions. We don't yet know which group is larger or if either will have a meaningful impact on participation.
Bob hits on a key point here, but it's not just about numbers. Of course there will be more players who want everything than GMs who don't. Many of the GMs who don't want everything allowed are those who haven't even GM'd yet, and were intimidated by the huge number of options they'd have to "master". So a strict counting of opinions isn't going to necessarily provide the best long-term option for the campaign.
New GMs are the lifeblood of this campaign. PFS1 made it more difficult to recruit new GMs as PCs became able to trivialize every encounter with options many people hadn't even heard of. Rarity allows the Campaign staff to see how options work and how the campaign progresses, using a brand-new rules system which may have other issues yet to be uncovered in Organized Play.
Maybe there will be ways to unlock items using achievement points and not just through chronicles. Let's wait and see before declaring the whole system unusable because of a few weapons and some mostly class-specific spells.
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I thought (but don't have a source handy) that if you specifically gain proficiency in an uncommon thing that you also get access to it.Well gnomes (and therefore humans) can already get them. But they don't increase their proficiency beyond trained very easily, so I don't think it's actually worth it.Reading the entry it seems gnomes get proficiency but not access, which is odd and perhaps unintentional.
In listening to Mark and Jason discuss the rules, 2E has much more precision language. Think of it like the rule for card game that indicates the rules say what they mean and do not imply what they don’t mean. While a gnome gains proficiency with kukri, the language is different that than of similar rules like the elven weapon proficiency, etc. They gain ACESS to weapons with gnome in the name, but only PROFICIENCY with the short list of weapons including kukri. Because of the precision language, access does not equal proficiency.
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So another problem I see with this system, and that nobody seems to have mentioned yet, is chronicle fishing. What's to stop people from using certain games to get access to something that would make their character work better/be more on theme? I understand that we can buy boons via playing, but if chronicles themselves have access to these options it'd be impossible to stop fishing.