Problems with Rarity in Society Play


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Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

At the moment, the guide says the following are items you "can always purchase" (slight tangent from the spell conversation but still within the OP question of rarity in society play, I think) -

Quote:

Any common equipment in sanctioned Pathfinder content with an item level equal to or less than your character’s level (minimum 2).

Any uncommon equipment in sanctioned Pathfinder content with an item level equal to or less than your character’s level (minimum 2); your character must have access to this uncommon equipment such as through meeting its Access condition.
Any equipment listed on your character’s Chronicle sheets with an item level equal to or less than your character’s level + 2. Some items found on Chronicle sheets are available for purchase only a limited number of times.
Any items and services purchased with Fame.

Given the language used, especially in the second and third points, and also given that I haven't seen a lot of "access conditions" or access requirements in the core rules, does this mean that level 1-2 uncommon items are simply "always available" for PFS characters?

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Mike Bramnik wrote:

At the moment, the guide says the following are items you "can always purchase" (slight tangent from the spell conversation but still within the OP question of rarity in society play, I think) -

Quote:

Any common equipment in sanctioned Pathfinder content with an item level equal to or less than your character’s level (minimum 2).

Any uncommon equipment in sanctioned Pathfinder content with an item level equal to or less than your character’s level (minimum 2); your character must have access to this uncommon equipment such as through meeting its Access condition.
Any equipment listed on your character’s Chronicle sheets with an item level equal to or less than your character’s level + 2. Some items found on Chronicle sheets are available for purchase only a limited number of times.
Any items and services purchased with Fame.
Given the language used, especially in the second and third points, and also given that I haven't seen a lot of "access conditions" or access requirements in the core rules, does this mean that level 1-2 uncommon items are simply "always available" for PFS characters?

I don't think so, you have to be sufficient level AND meet the item's access condition. An elf with the Elven Weapon Familiarity feat gains access to uncommon elf weapons, so they could buy an elven curve blade. An elf who didn't take that feat doesn't gain access.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Bob Jonquet wrote:
I would agree if it was an issue of a missing word or word choice, but the way it was written seems to be intentional. Also, we had this conversation in Slack and Mark Seifter commented multiple times and never indicated any errata.

Not to be pedantic, but were you just talking uncommon items in general and kukris didn't come up, or did you specifically ask "hey, kukris are the only uncommon weapon that you explicitly gain proficiency in but not access to, is that really intentional?"

If you compare gnomes/kukris to goblins/dogslicers, all that's missing is the word "gnome" as a weapon property in Table 6-7.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
I don't think so, you have to be sufficient level AND meet the item's access condition. An elf with the Elven Weapon Familiarity feat gains access to uncommon elf weapons, so they could buy an elven curve blade. An elf who didn't take that feat doesn't gain access.

For that example, I'm in total agreement with you. But if there are ever things that are simply listed as "uncommon" and has no other traits suggesting what qualifies as "access" (and it is level 2 or less), would PFS characters be free to purchase them?

2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
I would agree if it was an issue of a missing word or word choice, but the way it was written seems to be intentional. Also, we had this conversation in Slack and Mark Seifter commented multiple times and never indicated any errata.

Not to be pedantic, but were you just talking uncommon items in general and kukris didn't come up, or did you specifically ask "hey, kukris are the only uncommon weapon that you explicitly gain proficiency in but not access to, is that really intentional?"

If you compare gnomes/kukris to goblins/dogslicers, all that's missing is the word "gnome" as a weapon property in Table 6-7.

Yeah, it was specific to kukris and gnomes. Also elves without Weapon Familiarity and the elven curveblade.

2/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mike Bramnik wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
I don't think so, you have to be sufficient level AND meet the item's access condition. An elf with the Elven Weapon Familiarity feat gains access to uncommon elf weapons, so they could buy an elven curve blade. An elf who didn't take that feat doesn't gain access.
For that example, I'm in total agreement with you. But if there are ever things that are simply listed as "uncommon" and has no other traits suggesting what qualifies as "access" (and it is level 2 or less), would PFS characters be free to purchase them?

Access is a ancestry feature, feat, class feature, or boon that grants "access" to a non-common thing. So assume no access if you can't find a way to gain access in published materials (Paizo or OPF).

E.g. I haven't found a way to gain access to a katana.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

Blake's Tiger wrote:
Yeah, it was specific to kukris and gnomes. Also elves without Weapon Familiarity and the elven curveblade.

Now I'm sad for all those kukri-less gnomes. I was so excited that they had finally fixed gnome weapon proficiency into something useful by offering glaives and kukris in addition to standard gnome weapons. It meant that people had a reason to pick up gnome weapon proficiencies. Oh well, let's hope that there will be some access provided later.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Yeah, it was specific to kukris and gnomes. Also elves without Weapon Familiarity and the elven curveblade.
Now I'm sad for all those kukri-less gnomes. I was so excited that they had finally fixed gnome weapon proficiency into something useful by offering glaives and kukris in addition to standard gnome weapons. It meant that people had a reason to pick up gnome weapon proficiencies. Oh well, let's hope that there will be some access provided later.

Don't worry, they also gave them access to the only 1 handed d8 weapon with reach in the game, so they sure get something! ;-)

2/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It does not help with the confusion/frustration that the book dedicated entirely to the people and cultures of the setting was delayed a month, but it is coming. I will be disappointed if that resource does not directly address some of these culture-based access issues (and thus make having a home region boon mean something).

Kyonin nation may grant Elven Curveblade access while I would expect Ekujae nation to not necessarily grant it and maybe grant different things.

Five Kingdoms may grant the expected weapon access but access granted by Pahmet affiliation may be different.

The OPF may or may not be aware of what is in LOWG and be unwilling to step on the toes of that product's release and unable to comment on what they may know. So, before tossing your hands up in the air and declaring PFS(2) unplayable, I would recommend giving it a minute to start to catch up to 10 years worth of content.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Yeah, it was specific to kukris and gnomes. Also elves without Weapon Familiarity and the elven curveblade.
Now I'm sad for all those kukri-less gnomes. I was so excited that they had finally fixed gnome weapon proficiency into something useful by offering glaives and kukris in addition to standard gnome weapons. It meant that people had a reason to pick up gnome weapon proficiencies. Oh well, let's hope that there will be some access provided later.

I don't know. Ripsaw glaive, flick mace, and battle ladder were all pretty solid choices in PF1.

2/5

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shadowhntr7 wrote:
So another problem I see with this system, and that nobody seems to have mentioned yet, is chronicle fishing. What's to stop people from using certain games to get access to something that would make their character work better/be more on theme? I understand that we can buy boons via playing, but if chronicles themselves have access to these options it'd be impossible to stop fishing.

This assumes a lot about how these items might be distributed on chronicles. It may be that some uncommon options are easily accessed on multiple chronicle sheets. I'd much prefer that than being offered the same +1 cloak of resistance on every chronicle, which was already always available. We have only a handful of scenarios out.

Combine that with the achievement point system it may not be so difficult to get items you want. The difference is you'll earn them through your character's career.

Rare items and features might be different and prone to chronicle fishing...but no more so than most of what happens with unique character options currently. Either that or there we just an awful lot of really lucky wizards who ran into Riddywhipple.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

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I think the "Bequeath" faction boon will help with the rare option fishing.

Quote:


Bequeathal
service

Prerequisites All Factions Tier 3
Cost Varies

Pathfinders often find strange treasures for which they might not have any use, yet one of their colleagues would benefit. When you acquire this boon, select one uncommon, rare, or unique character option to which you’ve gained access through an adventure’s Chronicle sheet (e.g., a boon that allows you to acquire a special animal companion or purchase a special magic item). Choose another of your characters. That character gains access to that special option instead, though they may only use the option once their level equals or exceeds the lowest level able to play the Chronicle sheet’s adventure (e.g., 5th level for Tier 5–8). On the Chronicle sheet, write “Bequeathed” and the recipient character’s number next to the option. You no longer have access to that option (and must sell it back if you acquired the option and would no longer qualify for it).

The cost of this boon is 4 Fame for an uncommon option, 8 Fame for a rare option, and 12 Fame for a unique option.

Special You can purchase this boon multiple times. Each time you bequeath a different character option.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka The ShadowShackleton

Honesty it will be nice for chronicles and boons to be meaningful again. I went from using all my boons to just picking the best ones to not even bothering to read them and regifting them for the most part over 11 years of PFS.

I am loving the new approach!

3/5 Venture-Agent, Canada—Alberta—Grand Prairie aka DM Livgin

cavernshark wrote:
...I'd much prefer that than being offered the same +1 cloak of resistance on every chronicle, which was already always available...

Minor nitpick and one of my complaints about PFS1. The Cloak of Resistance +1 was not always available and was not available until 9 fame. For this reason I would often chronicle fish to put GM credit for a Confirmation on any caster characters I was making.

Yes, calling that chronicle fishing is a huge exaggeration.

Pearls of power were another contender for the first major purchase that was unavailable for characters that did not want armor.

Yes this is/was minor but with some module credits in the mix, 9 fame felt like a long time. Especially when you would fail a save by one in the meantime.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

As long as we offer special boons, unlocks and rewards on chronicle sheets, we are going to encourage chronicle fishing. Its inevitable. Personally I've rarely had an issue with it specifically, but when combined with increasingly liberal replay rules I dislike the outcome. Chronicle fishing through replay almost caused me to quit OP back in season two, but fortunately it was a [mostly] isolated incident.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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"Okay, we're now running Tea Time in Tien and..why is everyone that signed up a samurai?

Table in unison "No reason...."

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

"Okay, we're now running Tea Time in Tien and..why is everyone that signed up a samurai?

Table in unison "No reason...."

Somebody needs to write this in the style of a Hercule Poirot book that just happens to be during a fancy tea party in a far of a country home. Add a couple of retired warriors, maybe a bit of scandal and of course .....murder.....

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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You have no idea how much I want to write this scenario. I would love to do one that's a cross between an Agatha Christie stuck in a manor mystery and Murder's Mark.

Huh. Maybe I should look at third party guidelines for PF2.

Hmm

Silver Crusade 5/5

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You write it, I'm buying it.

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Captain, Netherlands aka Woran

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

You have no idea how much I want to write this scenario. I would love to do one that's a cross between an Agatha Christie stuck in a manor mystery and Murder's Mark.

Huh. Maybe I should look at third party guidelines for PF2.

Hmm

Want to co-op and make it a module?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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You have my sword.

Grand Lodge 3/5 Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Diego aka Michael_Hopkins

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And my bow!

Dark Archive 3/5

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And my axe!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

And my attention to read/run/play it!

Dataphiles 4/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵

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I'll bring the evil Macguffin that we need to dispose of.

Silver Crusade 4/5 Venture-Agent, Ohio—Cincinnati

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I'll bring the arsenic. I take two lumps of rat poison with my tea.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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Tineke Bolleman wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

You have no idea how much I want to write this scenario. I would love to do one that's a cross between an Agatha Christie stuck in a manor mystery and Murder's Mark.

Huh. Maybe I should look at third party guidelines for PF2.

Hmm

Want to co-op and make it a module?

Let's continue this conversation via email.

Hmm

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
You have my sword.

What

Michael Hopkins wrote:
And my bow!

kind

Grigorii wrote:
And my axe!

of tea parties do you attend?^^

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Depends, are they hosted by Amara Li or Sheila Heidmarch?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

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1. Because Organized Play means you will likely be playing with a variety of people and characters, in a variety of locations, with a variety of different styles of adventures, and a variety of GMs, players need to show flexibility.

2. A player who would stops playing PFS because he/she is not able to play the EXACT character concept they want is representing a very rigid mind set that is not conducive to the type of flexibility and cooperative play that is required for Organized Play.

I realize that it can be hard to fill seats sometimes. I frequently have this problem. But pandering to highly demanding people just makes them more demanding, not just of the campaign in general, but of the GMs and players. Which, in turn, puts off GMs and the more cooperative players. In my experience, pandering to overly demanding players is more likely to drive off more players and GMs than are represented by the overly demanding player base.

1/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
Tineke Bolleman wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

You have no idea how much I want to write this scenario. I would love to do one that's a cross between an Agatha Christie stuck in a manor mystery and Murder's Mark.

Huh. Maybe I should look at third party guidelines for PF2.

Hmm

Want to co-op and make it a module?

Let's continue this conversation via email.

Hmm

Could you add me to the list of supporters for The Long Dark TeaTime of the Eastern Pathfinder Society, por favor?

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Online—VTT

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*points at avatar* Did someone offer tea?

2/5

Ward Davis wrote:
cavernshark wrote:
...I'd much prefer that than being offered the same +1 cloak of resistance on every chronicle, which was already always available...

Minor nitpick and one of my complaints about PFS1. The Cloak of Resistance +1 was not always available and was not available until 9 fame. For this reason I would often chronicle fish to put GM credit for a Confirmation on any caster characters I was making.

Yes, calling that chronicle fishing is a huge exaggeration.

Pearls of power were another contender for the first major purchase that was unavailable for characters that did not want armor.

Yes this is/was minor but with some module credits in the mix, 9 fame felt like a long time. Especially when you would fail a save by one in the meantime.

All the tea time aside, I see that as a difference without distinction. Players often can't afford the items on chronicles when they first unlock them.

Chronicle fishing is a biggest problem when it locks character options behind a single character. Hopefully they'll unlock those options for all of a players characters. We also have a paradigm for passing unique loot between characters now.

There will inevitably a certain amount of metagaming any reward system, but I'd rather they take a shot at doing something interesting if our only other option is straight gold rewards. Let's see how it works out before casting judgement is all I'm saying. It seems promising so far.

3/5

Blake's Tiger wrote:
E.g. I haven't found a way to gain access to a katana.

I have found one sure way to access the katana, the Human 1st level feat: Unconventional Weaponry. The key part is: "or that is common in another culture" Obviously, katanas are common in Tian.

Someone also told me there is something in society play that says "if you are from a region, you gain access to uncommon weapons if they are common in that area" but I can't find that anywhere....


shalandar wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
E.g. I haven't found a way to gain access to a katana.

I have found one sure way to access the katana, the Human 1st level feat: Unconventional Weaponry. The key part is: "or that is common in another culture" Obviously, katanas are common in Tian.

Someone also told me there is something in society play that says "if you are from a region, you gain access to uncommon weapons if they are common in that area" but I can't find that anywhere....

I'm running into this. Going to spare you character details, but looking to get a clan dagger on a non-dwarf. Technically Adopted Ancestry feat says nothing about item access, nor do I see anything about the home region (Five Kings Mountains) rules and access. I could take the Dwarven Weapon Familiarity feat to make it common for me, but using an ancestry feat to gain access to a simple weapon purely for story reasons, at level 5 when I should have it from level 1 doesn't seem like an effective use of feats.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

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shalandar wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
E.g. I haven't found a way to gain access to a katana.

I have found one sure way to access the katana, the Human 1st level feat: Unconventional Weaponry. The key part is: "or that is common in another culture" Obviously, katanas are common in Tian.

Someone also told me there is something in society play that says "if you are from a region, you gain access to uncommon weapons if they are common in that area" but I can't find that anywhere....

Be careful of the word ”obviously”. All of us may think that katanas are common in Tien, but until that information appears in a printed book, it’s just theoretical. You can’t take an option just because something is “obvious” because you may turn out to be wrong.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin aka Partizanski

shalandar wrote:


Someone also told me there is something in society play that says "if you are from a region, you gain access to uncommon weapons if they are common in that area" but I can't find that anywhere....

There is the Home Region boon in the guide to organized play on the OPF website

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