Shields really bug me. They don't hinder spellcasting. So, why not equiping your caster with a shield? Ok, you need an action to use it, but there is not much of a drawback besides having your hand full.
I have hard time imagining all wizards and sorcerers wandering around with heavy steel shields...
For wizards and a lot of sorc you could just use the shield cantrip for most of the benefit of a shield without having to lug it around. Honestly given that cantrip them being able to use mundane shields does not bother me much because most are going to effectively have it anyway.
AFAICT, wearing full plate mail doesn't hinder casting either. There is no more arcane spell failure chance. It's all in the proficiencies.
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I'm more bugged by the fact that using a tower shield still counts as unamored.
A monk can't do tricky stuff as soon as their wear a leather armor but jumping around with a door strapped to their arm is fine. :D
Shield cantrip is nice, but shields are better in my opinion: They give a +2 AC bonus and don't disappear for 10 minutes if you shield block. But it's true you need the Shield Block feat to use shields to their best ability.
Yes, but to wear a full plate you need feats or Champion Dedication, which is different than having everyone using shields just because it costs nearly nothing.
I agree for monks, in my opinion, shields should disrupt their ability, and all finesse weapons efficiency like in PF1.
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The shield has 1 bulk, costs increasing amounts of money to keep up with levels, needs a feat to block with, needs time dedicated to repairing it. The cantrip costs 0 bulk, 0 gold, 0 feats to block, can block magic missile, and recharges automatically so you can instead refocus or treat wounds or whatever. Both have their ups and downs, real shields are better but cost an awful lot more to use. If you don't have the strength and the feat and the wealth and the craft skill and the time to repair reliably, you're better off with the cantrip, it is far lower maintenance.
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While shields do look pretty useful for casters, and I'm sure it will come up now and then, I don't expect it to be too common. For a few reasons. Let's assume a caster who's trying to stay out of melee:
(1) Shield will get you *most* of the benefit of a steel shield, and you probably don't expect to shield block more than a couple times in a combat even when you're dragged into melee (combat lasting only 3-4 rounds).
(2) Many casters will be low-Str and constrained by Bulk limits. A shield is 1 Bulk, and a repair kit to keep it together is 1 Bulk. But a spellbook is 1 Bulk and a Waterskin (full) is 1 Bulk. So if you've got an 8 Str Wizard, you're already encumbered if you carry anything more than that. And many casters will be low-Str. Which is to say, again, that the marginal benefit of hauling around that stuff as opposed to just using shield may not be worth it.
(3) But the real reason not to bother is that very, very often you'll find yourself having a better use for all 3 actions. Casting a spell is mostly 2 actions, you've got useful cantrips so you'll probably want to be doing that every round, and that 3rd action will almost always be better spent on moving, on metamagic, on a focus spell, or on something else.
It wouldn't bother me if casters with shields became common. But I don't expect them to, for reasons like these.
I'm more bugged by the fact that using a tower shield still counts as unamored.
A monk can't do tricky stuff as soon as their wear a leather armor but jumping around with a door strapped to their arm is fine. :D
Jackie chan could do it with a ladder a shield is probably childs play.
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Jackie chan could do it with a ladder a shield is probably childs play.I'm more bugged by the fact that using a tower shield still counts as unamored.
A monk can't do tricky stuff as soon as their wear a leather armor but jumping around with a door strapped to their arm is fine. :D
You beat me to it.
Yep, if ladders, shopping carts, and benches can all count as monk weapons (and they should), then I see no problem with an acrobatic monk with a door on his arm. This is a very welcome and long overdue correction to a rather egregious oversight.
I'm more bugged by the fact that using a tower shield still counts as unamored.
A monk can't do tricky stuff as soon as their wear a leather armor but jumping around with a door strapped to their arm is fine. :D
The only things monk lose wearing armor is their passive movement speed, can still do all the "tricky stuff"
EDIT: and 2 stances, iron blood and tangled forest require no armor.
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The shield has 1 bulk, costs increasing amounts of money to keep up with levels, needs a feat to block with, needs time dedicated to repairing it. The cantrip costs 0 bulk, 0 gold, 0 feats to block, can block magic missile, and recharges automatically so you can instead refocus or treat wounds or whatever. Both have their ups and downs, real shields are better but cost an awful lot more to use. If you don't have the strength and the feat and the wealth and the craft skill and the time to repair reliably, you're better off with the cantrip, it is far lower maintenance.I mentioned this elsewhere, but yeah, I think shields are significantly better for casters. Particularly once the spellguard shield comes into play. Then I basically *never* want to use shield block, as a +2 circumstance bonus to saves is a huge advantage.
I'd argue that as a caster you *probably* want to use a regular shield for +2 AC and never shield block vs casting shield for +1 AC with shield block assuming you're attacked 3 or so times on average in a combat, and that's before the spellguard shield. Note, there's also no reason you can't have the shield spell and *also* a regular shield for after you block...
I don't think that meshes with my playstyle, but if it works for you great. I personally find myself struggling to have enough carrying capacity for all the stuff I want on-hand. I also really do prefer having the option to shield block even if only in emergencies. Which is a lot easier with the cantrip.
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It's important to remember that every caster except the sorcerer has to keep a hand free for material components, and there are some two actions spells (mostly illusions) that require them. If you try to hold a shield and a staff as a wizard you're locked out of all material component spells even if you have Eschew Materials.
It's important to remember that every caster except the sorcerer has to keep a hand free for material components
Or bard [there are 1 handed instruments].
It's important to remember that every caster except the sorcerer has to keep a hand free for material componentsOr bard [there are 1 handed instruments].
Did Bards lose the ability to replace any casting action with Somatic?
Did Bards lose the ability to replace any casting action with Somatic?It's important to remember that every caster except the sorcerer has to keep a hand free for material componentsOr bard [there are 1 handed instruments].
Nope, that is the point. You can replace any somatic or material component with an instrument. Also, I don't think you need a free hand for somatic anyway.
It's important to remember that every caster except the sorcerer has to keep a hand free for material componentsOr bard [there are 1 handed instruments].
I don't really consider that to be keeping a hand free, since you can do performances without hands and still get item bonuses.
Nope, that is the point. You can replace any somatic or material component with an instrument. Also, I don't think you need a free hand for somatic anyway.Did Bards lose the ability to replace any casting action with Somatic?It's important to remember that every caster except the sorcerer has to keep a hand free for material componentsOr bard [there are 1 handed instruments].
You don't, only material requires a free hand (except sorcerers, and maybe clerics if they still have that engrave feat for holy symbols).
But I don't consider holding an instrument to be a useful way of replacing components in combat, since performances don't require instruments. The only reason to do them is your preferred flavor or ultra optimization for an extra point of item bonus you can't get on a dancing scarf or acting mask.
all stances require no armor as far as i can see.I'm more bugged by the fact that using a tower shield still counts as unamored.
A monk can't do tricky stuff as soon as their wear a leather armor but jumping around with a door strapped to their arm is fine. :D
The only things monk lose wearing armor is their passive movement speed, can still do all the "tricky stuff"
EDIT: and 2 stances, iron blood and tangled forest require no armor.
Damn Archives of Nethys! on their big list of feats it only has ironblood and tangled forest as having "you are unarmored" as prereq (even though they're requirements not prerequisites) but yea you're correct the stances all list you must be unarmored.
Except Wild Winds Stance.
All the other feats are usable while armored though so my wep monk idea lives on.
It's important to remember that every caster except the sorcerer has to keep a hand free for material components, and there are some two actions spells (mostly illusions) that require them. If you try to hold a shield and a staff as a wizard you're locked out of all material component spells even if you have Eschew Materials.
Agreed. And Shield can be a valid choice, but it tends to block out others even more so than other options because it can't be quickly dropped AFAIK. Whether holding a melee weapon or holding a magical staff (which seems to be much bigger focus in 2E) or having hand free to use random items, a Shield can conflict with those.
Yup. Although they did invent Bucklers for that, only half as effective in AC and HPs of course. But they're only L!
Yup. Although they did invent Bucklers for that, only half as effective in AC and HPs of course. But they're only L!
Hm... an action to gain +1 AC, which allows you to use a reaction to block some damage, and which doesn't require a free hand. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea for a caster. But I'm not sure if bucklers are thematically suited. If only casters had some other option to get the same benefit, in a more thematically suited way. Too bad something like that doesn't exist. Maybe we'll see it in a later book.
Yup. Although they did invent Bucklers for that, only half as effective in AC and HPs of course. But they're only L!Hm... an action to gain +1 AC, which allows you to use a reaction to block some damage, and which doesn't require a free hand. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea for a caster. But I'm not sure if bucklers are thematically suited. If only casters had some other option to get the same benefit, in a more thematically suited way. Too bad something like that doesn't exist. Maybe we'll see it in a later book.
While a caster CAN cast shield, it goes away for 10 min if they actually use the damage block: no reason not to use the cantrip first and if it vanished use the buckler.
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"at least real shields are natural..." mutters in Druidic...
While a caster CAN cast shield, it goes away for 10 min if they actually use the damage block: no reason not to use the cantrip first and if it vanished use the buckler.Yup. Although they did invent Bucklers for that, only half as effective in AC and HPs of course. But they're only L!Hm... an action to gain +1 AC, which allows you to use a reaction to block some damage, and which doesn't require a free hand. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea for a caster. But I'm not sure if bucklers are thematically suited. If only casters had some other option to get the same benefit, in a more thematically suited way. Too bad something like that doesn't exist. Maybe we'll see it in a later book.
Fair enough for using both, I guess, but I'm not sure the going away for 10 minutes us a huge knock against it compared to the buckler. At level 1, the shield goes away if you take more than 5 damage in a single hit. But so does the buckler (6 damage - 3 = 3 = Buckler Broken threshold), and the buckler could also be permanently destroyed, potentially, and it also blocks less damage. While there isn't as clean a comparison for later levels, the best common bucklers are cold iron, but even at the levels you get them at, if you consider the maximum amount they could block compared to the cantrip, it can always block at most two hits that would destroy a cantrip shield of equivalent level, but the maximum HP saved from that would be only equal to or 1 higher than the cantrip shield, meanwhile the cantrip shield can handle larger single hits and is just flat better when the next heightened versions come online, as any hit that would bypass the shield's hardness would break the buckler in one hit, thus preventing more damage. So, as a backup, sure, but at that point you have to wonder is it worth the general feat?
So, as a backup, sure, but at that point you have to wonder is it worth the general feat?
Even if you don't have the feat, you can still get the AC bonus for Raising a buckler.