Sorcerer vs Wizard - slots & feats discrepancy..


Rules Discussion

Grand Lodge

Level 4 Arcane Sorcerer

  • 1 Focus Spell (Bloodline)
  • Blood Magic special effect
  • Level 1 Spell slots: 4
  • Level 2 Spell slots: 4
  • Class feats: 2

Level 4 Wizard

  • 1 Focus Spell (school)
  • Thesis (Improved Familiar or Metamagical Experimentation)
  • Level 1 Spell slots: 4 (include free one from school)
  • Level 2 Spell slots: 5 (include free one from school, and Arcane Bond)
  • Class feats: 4 (include free one from Thesis; ME thesis actually has 5 class feats by now)

First I thought "Hey the Wizard get's a Class Feat already at level 1", but when I started to actually compare.. The Wizard gets at least two extra feats.

I'm also saddened, that even though the Wizard has higher flexibility, at least in PF1, the Sorcerer would have extra spell slots. (in some cases 2 more) But that's not the case any longer.

Did I miss anything?


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You forgot to count:
* Eschew Materials feat for free
* all Bloodlines give 2 skills, meaning Sorcerer gets 1 more "free" skill than Wizard (although Wizard favours Int so will probably have a bunch of skills from that)

You're double-counting Thesis. Wizards get 3 class feats by level 4; the 4th one from your list is only given by one Thesis, which you counted separately as Thesis.

Also, Thesis are significantly weaker than Bloodline abilities.


I thought Sorcerers were wildly better than Wizards until I realized that after 1st level bloodline granted spells are mandatory selections from your repertoire, not in addition to it. Only being able to select two spells per level after 1st, and dealing with bloodline duds, is a lot more restrictive and makes the wizard a little more defensible. And the bard strangely more flexible by comparison, too.


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NemoNoName wrote:

You forgot to count:

* Eschew Materials feat for free
* all Bloodlines give 2 skills, meaning Sorcerer gets 1 more "free" skill than Wizard (although Wizard favours Int so will probably have a bunch of skills from that)

You're double-counting Thesis. Wizards get 3 class feats by level 4; the 4th one from your list is only given by one Thesis, which you counted separately as Thesis.

Also, Thesis are significantly weaker than Bloodline abilities.

I'd say a thesis is stronger than a blood magic effect. Most blood magic effects are weaker than dangerous sorcerery, which is a first level feat (and doesn't seem over powered), a thesis gives more than a first level feat, 2 give at least double. So it seems pretty clear to me that a thesis is worth more than blood magic. But I guess if you think dangerous sorcerery is over powered for a first level feat you might disagree.


citricking wrote:
I'd say a thesis is stronger than a blood magic effect. Most blood magic effects are weaker than dangerous sorcerery, which is a first level feat (and doesn't seem over powered), a thesis gives more than a first level feat, 2 give at least double. So it seems pretty clear to me that a thesis is worth more than blood magic. But I guess if you think dangerous sorcerery is over powered for a first level feat you might disagree.

Depends on which Thesis, but I wasn't comparing just to Blood Magic. Still, Blood Magic has a big advantage that it just triggers when casting a spell.

As for Dangerous Sorcery is not overpowered. It's just about the right power I would say, a very nice and simple spell. Maybe they should've made it into a Metamagic feat (with a bit stronger effect) but mostly it's fine.


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Xenocrat wrote:
I thought Sorcerers were wildly better than Wizards until I realized that after 1st level bloodline granted spells are mandatory selections from your repertoire, not in addition to it.

The wording on that is bad. But the example that follows makes it clear that that is not true. You get the bloodline spell in addition to your 2 new spells.

Sorcerer wrote:
When you gain access to a new level of spells, your first new spell is always your bloodline spell, but you can choose the other spells you gain. At 2nd level, you select another 1st-level spell; at 3rd level, you gain a new bloodline spell and two other 2nd-level spells, and so on.

The Exchange

Xenocrat wrote:
I thought Sorcerers were wildly better than Wizards until I realized that after 1st level bloodline granted spells are mandatory selections from your repertoire, not in addition to it. Only being able to select two spells per level after 1st, and dealing with bloodline duds, is a lot more restrictive and makes the wizard a little more defensible. And the bard strangely more flexible by comparison, too.

It is a bit disappointing in comparison to the Bard's capability as a spontaneous caster. Unless you have an arcane bloodline and the arcane evolution feat, the Bard will far outpace you in signature spells with their feats. It wouldn't hurt as much if the riders on Bloodline spells were better and you had a feat that let you add spells to your bloodline to trigger them more often. I mean I'm looking at a Hag bloodline for the focus powers and flavor. Its rider would rarely come up if I were using the bloodline spell. Illusory Disguise isn't really a combat spell.

It's also kind of odd that your Bloodline Spells don't auto heighten. From the flavor standpoint, you would think that these spells that are coursing through your veins would naturally get better as you got stronger in controlling your power.

Grand Lodge

NemoNoName wrote:

You forgot to count:

* Eschew Materials feat for free

You're double-counting Thesis. Wizards get 3 class feats by level 4; the 4th one from your list is only given by one Thesis, which you counted separately as Thesis.

Also, Thesis are significantly weaker than Bloodline abilities.

Eschew Materials - okay you got a point there. But do you think that countermands the flexibility of prepared casting?

I'm not double-counting Thesis..

Level 4 wizard:
* One of the Thesis's get an extra Class Feat. The other two extra feats by level 4. The Thesis baseline is way stronger then Bloodline.
* Level 1 Wizard Feat
* Level 2 Wizard Feat
* Level 3 Wizard Feat


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Varun Creed wrote:
Eschew Materials - okay you got a point there. But do you think that countermands the flexibility of prepared casting?

Prepared casting has a bit of flexibility, but only a bit. Prepared casters need to know what spells will be needed during the day to take advantage of that flexibility, while Sorcerers have a smaller pool but flexible in the moment.

No amount of prepared casting flexibility will help you if you have one fire spell prepared and the enemy is resistant to everything except fire. Sorcerer can blast away.

I will also point out that unless wizard spends gold putting extra spells in the spellbook, Sorcerers have the same number of available spell options (Wizards get 2 per level; Sorcerers have the same number of options as slots, which is 4 per spell level).

Varun Creed wrote:
* One of the Thesis's get an extra Class Feat. The other two extra feats by level 4. The Thesis baseline is way stronger then Bloodline.

This is literally double counting Thesis bonus. Either you count Thesis, or you count the feats the Thesis gives. Don't count both.


Eoni wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
I thought Sorcerers were wildly better than Wizards until I realized that after 1st level bloodline granted spells are mandatory selections from your repertoire, not in addition to it. Only being able to select two spells per level after 1st, and dealing with bloodline duds, is a lot more restrictive and makes the wizard a little more defensible. And the bard strangely more flexible by comparison, too.
It is a bit disappointing in comparison to the Bard's capability as a spontaneous caster. Unless you have an arcane bloodline and the arcane evolution feat, the Bard will far outpace you in signature spells with their feats. It wouldn't hurt as much if the riders on Bloodline spells were better and you had a feat that let you add spells to your bloodline to trigger them more often. I mean I'm looking at a Hag bloodline for the focus powers and flavor.

1. Correction: I was wrong, you do get to choose 3 per level plus get a free granted spell.

2. Terminology note: Spells in your repertoire from your bloodline are "granted spells." "Bloodline spells" actually refers to your focus spells.

Varun Creed wrote:
NemoNoName wrote:

You forgot to count:

* Eschew Materials feat for free

You're double-counting Thesis. Wizards get 3 class feats by level 4; the 4th one from your list is only given by one Thesis, which you counted separately as Thesis.

Also, Thesis are significantly weaker than Bloodline abilities.

Eschew Materials - okay you got a point there. But do you think that countermands the flexibility of prepared casting?

1. Sorcerer "Eschew Materials for free" is better than Eschew Materials, because sorcerers don't need hands free to fake material components, wizards with EM still do.

2. Prepared casting is only flexible day to day, and I don't think the spells (especially given uncommon limitations) are there yet to really support much real flexibility even with a padded out spell book. Sorcerers at high levels have HUGE tactical flexibility. A 12th level specialist wizard has four choices of what do with his 6th level spell slots, and can only use each of those choices once (ignoring arcane bond). A 12th level sorcerer has nine choices of what do with his 6th level spell slots, four spells known and five lower level signature spells he can heighten.

I think that's why it might be intended for 19-20th level wizards to be able to have up to four or five 10th level spells available as they can right now. Sorcerers can only have one or two slots per day, but they choose those slots from a minimum of eleven choices of spell they can cast. Until wizards get a lot more spells, actual transcribe them into their books, and get access to some good uncommon ones, sorcerers actually have more practical flexibility.

The Exchange

Xenocrat wrote:


1. Correction: I was wrong, you do get to choose 3 per level plus get a free granted spell.

2. Terminology note: Spells in your repertoire from your bloodline are "granted spells." "Bloodline spells" actually refers to your focus spells.

Ugh yeah I'm never going to get used to that terminology but that is what I meant. Something to tie your spell repertoire in with your granted spells so you can experience your riders more often would be nice and since you're stuck with your granted spells anyway, it would be great if they auto-heightened. It would push the Elemental bloodline into a better position a a blaster since then you'd have your granted spell heightening and a different elemental spell as your signature that's heightening along with it.


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Xenocrat wrote:

2. Terminology note: Spells in your repertoire from your bloodline are "granted spells." "Bloodline spells" actually refers to your focus spells.

Why did they decide to use "bloodline" as a descriptor for everything the sorcerer gets? It makes it so confusing when someone says "bloodline spell" and you then have to determine if they mean a focus spell or a spell added to their repertoire by their bloodline. Why didn't they just call the focus spells "Focus Spells"?


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Xenocrat wrote:
I thought Sorcerers were wildly better than Wizards until I realized that after 1st level bloodline granted spells are mandatory selections from your repertoire, not in addition to it. Only being able to select two spells per level after 1st, and dealing with bloodline duds, is a lot more restrictive and makes the wizard a little more defensible. And the bard strangely more flexible by comparison, too.

After making a few bards at this point, I would safely state they are actually the strongest caster in the game right now.

They have exceptionally powerful list, they get Cantrips out the wazzoo, they get excellent proficiency to Skills, Armor, Weapons, etc. that the other Casters do not, and their Feats are insanely powerful.

I don't want to say it's overtuned... because it is also my new favorite class in terms of flavor... but it does seem extremely strong.


Midnightoker wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
I thought Sorcerers were wildly better than Wizards until I realized that after 1st level bloodline granted spells are mandatory selections from your repertoire, not in addition to it. Only being able to select two spells per level after 1st, and dealing with bloodline duds, is a lot more restrictive and makes the wizard a little more defensible. And the bard strangely more flexible by comparison, too.

After making a few bards at this point, I would safely state they are actually the strongest caster in the game right now.

They have exceptionally powerful list, they get Cantrips out the wazzoo, they get excellent proficiency to Skills, Armor, Weapons, etc. that the other Casters do not, and their Feats are insanely powerful.

I don't want to say it's overtuned... because it is also my new favorite class in terms of flavor... but it does seem extremely strong.

1. I was wrong about Sorcerer repertoire, they do get the same as the Bard but also their Bloodline granted spells. So they get more, and their extra repertoire feat is available at level 16 for all arcane/occult bloodlines, vs the Bard one at 18 for only enigma muses (the least likely one to be taken).

2. I am coming around to thinking occult is the best list, but they definitely lag in raw spellcasting power compared to the sorcerer and (ugh) wizard. The polymath has some interesting day to day versatility in spell selection, but not nearly as much as the wizard and not as much as the sorcerer with extra bloodline granted spells and the crossblooded evolution feats. But yeah, they get lots of other stuff to make up for that. The first time a high level Sorcerer tries to use his expert will proficiency to save against the thing the Bard shrugged off with his legendary will he's probably going to have a bad time.


Xenocrat wrote:


1. Correction: I was wrong, you do get to choose 3 per level plus get a free granted spell.

See... here is where the confusion lies for me. It says in the class description that you must pick the bloodline spell as your first spell. And the example it gives has the sorcerer "picking" the bloodline spell, then picking 2 more (not picking 3 in addition to the free spell).

But in the bloodlines section it says they are in addition to.
I'm not sure which is right.

The Exchange

Looking at it more closely, the Wizard appears to be a tier higher than the sorcerer due to the effective 2-3 feat advantage.

Thesis feat for familiar gives you effectively two feats: both familiar and with the base Enhanced familiar feat tacked on (this familiar lets you regain 1 focus point/day in 1 round even during combat, 1 additional cantrip, and 1-2 other abilities to allow for scouting etc).
The L1 wizard feat gives you metamagic if you want or you could take eschew material feat (but why).

For these 2-3 feats the sorcerer gets ... efaster focus recovery (situationally useful), 1 more focus spell and some flexibility?

The sorcerer seems more useful as the chassis for a gish


Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:


1. Correction: I was wrong, you do get to choose 3 per level plus get a free granted spell.

See... here is where the confusion lies for me. It says in the class description that you must pick the bloodline spell as your first spell. And the example it gives has the sorcerer "picking" the bloodline spell, then picking 2 more (not picking 3 in addition to the free spell).

But in the bloodlines section it says they are in addition to.
I'm not sure which is right.

The confusion may lie in that the third spell you actually get to pick is on the even levels, with the bloodline-granted spell and first two picks being the odd levels (when you increment spell level).


Shinigami02 wrote:
The confusion may lie in that the third spell you actually get to pick is on the even levels, with the bloodline-granted spell and first two picks being the odd levels (when you increment spell level).

Ohhh. I might've missed that.

I'm trying so hard to cram this rules engine into my head on its own, without any prior assumptions. I'll go take another look.


I just went and looked. It says the bloodline granted spells are gained as soon as the sorcerer gets access to that spell level. Which would be 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc.
The spell repertoire paragraph very clearly says the bloodline granted spells count towards your spells known.
The only confusing part is the bloodline entry says they're in addition to.


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Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:

I just went and looked. It says the bloodline granted spells are gained as soon as the sorcerer gets access to that spell level. Which would be 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc.

The spell repertoire paragraph very clearly says the bloodline granted spells count towards your spells known.
The only confusing part is the bloodline entry says they're in addition to.

I think the bloodline entry is a hangover from the playtest. Back then, the chart only listed 3 spells able to be cast and known per level, and then had a special off chart ability that (1) gave you an extra cast because of your bloodline, and (2) gave you an extra spell known from your bloodline. So you got four spells to cast, and four spells known, one of which has to be your bloodline granted spell.

But now they just put everything in the chart and the main class spellcasting rules - you eventually get four spell slots per level and four spells in your repertoire per level, one of which must be your bloodline granted spell. But the bloodline entry itself still reflects the old idea that the chart/base was 3, and the bloodline added to it rather than modifying the base 4 in the final rules.


Hsui wrote:

Looking at it more closely, the Wizard appears to be a tier higher than the sorcerer due to the effective 2-3 feat advantage.

Thesis feat for familiar gives you effectively two feats: both familiar and with the base Enhanced familiar feat tacked on (this familiar lets you regain 1 focus point/day in 1 round even during combat, 1 additional cantrip, and 1-2 other abilities to allow for scouting etc).
The L1 wizard feat gives you metamagic if you want or you could take eschew material feat (but why).

For these 2-3 feats the sorcerer gets ... efaster focus recovery (situationally useful), 1 more focus spell and some flexibility?

The sorcerer seems more useful as the chassis for a gish

The feat advantage is one less than that. The ability to not need a hand free is definitely nice. That means you can hold a staff and a shield and cast spells with material components. Now of only there were spells with material components worth using…


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citricking wrote:


The feat advantage is one less than that. The ability to not need a hand free is definitely nice. That means you can hold a staff and a shield and cast spells with material components. Now of only there were spells with material components worth using…

Is that the Xenocrat symbol I see in the sky, or just a cloud that looks like an upraised middle finger?

Black Tentacles
Darkness
Disappearance
Fabricated Truth
Hallucination
Harm/Heal (three action)
Invisibility
Obscuring Mist
Prismatic Wall
Silence
Solid Fog
Summon X (they're not all bad all the time!)
Time Stop
Visions of Danger
Wall of X
Wish/Alter Reality/Miracle/Primal Phenomenon

Verdict: Mostly true.

The Exchange

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citricking wrote:
Hsui wrote:

Looking at it more closely, the Wizard appears to be a tier higher than the sorcerer due to the effective 2-3 feat advantage.

Thesis feat for familiar gives you effectively two feats: both familiar and with the base Enhanced familiar feat tacked on (this familiar lets you regain 1 focus point/day in 1 round even during combat, 1 additional cantrip, and 1-2 other abilities to allow for scouting etc).
The L1 wizard feat gives you metamagic if you want or you could take eschew material feat (but why).

For these 2-3 feats the sorcerer gets ... efaster focus recovery (situationally useful), 1 more focus spell and some flexibility?

The sorcerer seems more useful as the chassis for a gish

The feat advantage is one less than that. The ability to not need a hand free is definitely nice. That means you can hold a staff and a shield and cast spells with material components. Now of only there were spells with material components worth using…

No, I think I was accurate in my example. The familiar thesis gives you 2 feats (familiar and enhanced familiar) and the L1 wizard feat gives you another feat. That is 3 feats. If you decide to take eschew materials, that would reduce it.

Regarding being able to carry a shield, there is a cantrip that takes 1 action and requires NO hand (and stops Magic Missile to boot). The benefit of purchasing a shield with more protection is questionable at best. Thus, the advantage of no hand eschew material is minimal. In fact, the advantage of eschew materials is also questionable the vast majority of the time

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