PFS2 1-00 Origin of the Open Road


GM Discussion

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

Protoplasmic Extruder.

This creates oozes, this is pretty cool.

Unfortunately their stat blocks are not included in the scenario, and the PRD bestiary lacks rules on their attacks as well.

Gelatinous Cube Example.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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I played this one yesterday and will run it soon... that first ooze encounter is brutal, mostly because 2 of the currently available 6 pre-generated characters are relatively useless.

Combined with our group activating the trap, it felt more like Serpent's Rise than a quick and easy scenario for beginners.
The GM's cursed dice did not help with secret checks either.

The first encounter felt pretty good though.

2/5

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Ran this at GenCon, table felt like they had fun. However none of them had significant ties to PFS/Golarian lore so it was harder to motivate this as an exciting adventure. 'We're tracking down old books in a library' wasn't a great hook for them.

The first encounter worked pretty well, especially as it typically will be triggered with the party somewhat spread out. However it did have a bit of a 5e feel in 'it doesn't matter what class you are, your rolls matter more' -- our higher AC fighter with shield raise kept getting crit, while the lower AC wizard tanked one for 3 rounds with no hits getting through.

The skill check portion at the beginning is structured a little oddly IMO with the red herring 'there's nothing left to find here' before some of the good/required results. Not sure how GMs are running that. I was letting all simultaneous checks happen and then tallying the results, so we jumped over these problem areas due to the way the dice fell. But if they had gone wrong I think the PCs lose the primary success condition for no good reason.

The black pudding is brutal and I can see it causing tpks indirectly later in the fight -- depletes a lot of resources, a couple of people lost armor/weapons.

The pacing felt a little off for a 'new to the game system special'. There will often be a fair bit of rules explanation/questions about characters. I try to keep it brief, as I believable in learn by playing, not by lecture. But with level 5s people had a lot more questions than they did with the level 1 pre-gens. The skill checks were harder for me to add interested role-play to (felt I did a better job in 1-01 with all the NPCs) so its just a set of checks to make until the combat is triggered. And then winning the combat only means you go back to the same checks. Once you exhaust those checks it back to more skill checks to gather information/etc. I could tell my group was itching for combat and the scenario delays.

Scarab Sages 3/5 Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Bellevue aka JohannVonUlm

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Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

I played this one yesterday and will run it soon... that first ooze encounter is brutal, mostly because 2 of the currently available 6 pre-generated characters are relatively useless.

I ran this one in the Thursday night slot at GenCon. Two of the veteran players felt pretty frustrated with both the black pudding and the final fight. At first I was concerned that set of 6 pre-gens available weren't well tailored for it.

But after some thought, I realized that as a GM I missed something important. For the most part, I treated the scenario as a tutorial. It was the first PF2 game for all of us. But I clearly didn't emphasize well enough what the players find in the library and in their investigation.

- All the missing books are on Oozecraft - the making and use of oozes.
- The suspected thieves are from an area that specializes in oozes.
- The hidden trap door obviously leads to the sewers.

And finally, you're in one of the bigger towns in Golarion with plenty of time on your hands for an investigation.

If I had footstomped the obvious ... you may see oozes? Allowed a knowledge check or two. Maybe the rogue stops to buy a light mace (finesse, 2 sp) and the Barbarian stops to buy a great club (1 gp). For 1 gp, 2 sp, they would have changed the fights altogether. Both those pregens have plenty of cash on hand for that.

Kicking myself for not emphasizing that part of the story.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Newcastle aka Tim Schneider 908

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How does one do downtime work for this one?

Guide suggests that pregens can do a dayjob, which is fine, but combined with the special allowing you to put it on a level 1... the amount of gold that a level 5 pregen can get on a dayjob is somewhat inappropriate for a level 1 character.

Is this an oversight that shouldn't be allowed, or just a windfall for those who put the special chronicle on a level 1?

4/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Southcoast aka JDDyslexia

John Brinkman wrote:

I ran this one in the Thursday night slot at GenCon. Two of the veteran players felt pretty frustrated with both the black pudding and the final fight. At first I was concerned that set of 6 pre-gens available weren't well-tailored for it.

But after some thought, I realized that as a GM I missed something important. For the most part, I treated the scenario as a tutorial. It was the first PF2 game for all of us. But I clearly didn't emphasize well enough what the players find in the library and in their investigation.

- All the missing books are on Oozecraft - the making and use of oozes.
- The suspected thieves are from an area that specializes in oozes.
- The hidden trap door obviously leads to the sewers.

And finally, you're in one of the bigger towns in Golarion with plenty of time on your hands for an investigation.

If I had footstomped the obvious ... you may see oozes? Allowed a knowledge check or two. Maybe the rogue stops to buy a light mace (finesse, 2 sp) and the Barbarian stops to buy a great club (1 gp). For 1 gp, 2 sp, they would have changed the fights altogether. Both those pregens have plenty of cash on hand for that.

Kicking myself for not emphasizing that part of the story.

My table at GenCon was fantastic with the oozes. Once they identified the weapon damage problem, Ezren pulled a "yeah, I can hit things with a staff" and proceeded to charge into melee. Eventually, Amiri took it from him and the rest was history. They had the pieces they needed.

The table I ran last weekend opted for the poisonous spores and did fairly well at it.

Both tables roflstomped the final encounter. My GenCon table snuck up on the alchemists. I rolled crud initiative and they just wiped the floor clean with them. The table from last weekend needed a couple of rounds due to coming in single-file through difficult terrain, but Merisiel won initiative and got a crit success for the Disable check on the trap.

Dark Archive 1/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Michigan—Warren

We had a TPK on this one last night. The team had done a general knowledge check on oozes before heading down to the sewer, but that didn't pick up the piece of knowledge that a specific type of ooze (black pudding) splits under certain circumstances. In the encounter, the first PC split the pudding into three puddings and the creatures then devastated the team. With three actions, going toe to toe with these things can be catastrophic! I totally agree with John Brinkman's comments suggesting finding ways to feed more information.

Except for the collective bummer of the TPK, the players seemed to enjoy the plot and new rules. Be prepared that this one has a decent risk of going long, especially with new players involved.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

We also very nearly TPK'd on this one Friday night. The first encounter was fun and relatively easy/straightforward, but Fumbus blew through almost all his bombs and then used up all his reagents making more before we went into the sewers, and with the rest of the party being Ezren, Amiri, and Valeros, we were hard up for healing. It did not occur to us to buy more appropriate equipment before we went down into the sewers, even though we all bloody well knew what oozes meant, so Valeros and Amiri were severely handicapped, and that was after they both crit-failed against the trap at the beginning, so when we wandered into the poisonous spores and Valeros again crit-failed, that player was done. He walked back through the acid trap on purpose to kill the character and went home early, with the strong implication that he had no intention of ever playing PF2 again. The rest of us narrowly managed to "defeat" the alchemists by triggering their retreat morale condition and disabling the ooze extruder.

Overall, while I still had fun playing Amiri, I feel like this was really spectacularly poorly balanced for the pre-gens we ran it against and the equipment they were provided with. It just felt like a meat grinder, and not a fun introduction to the system.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Minnesota—Minneapolis aka Silbeg

When I ran this at Gen Con, the players did pick up on all the ooze-lore. As such, they assumed that the black pudding was some sort of ooze.

This didn't help Merisiel, who got critted, grabbed, and spent the rest of the encounter learning about the death and dying rules. Once they took a moment to recall knowledge, they did get some basic things (though not before Valeros managed to split it).

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Newcastle aka Tim Schneider 908

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My group almost died on the black pudding splitting it 6 times, but right before the 6 puddings obliterated them Ezren fireballed the whole party to kill them! We got to try out all the dying rules haha.

Whole party walked in stark naked into the final encounter (ooze dissolving gear) where I had them scream that they'd never stop their research and was about to call initiative when a player shou1ted "Wait! We dont want to! We just want the open road book, you can keep the ooze books!"... the players actually thought the ooze research was cool & didn't want to stop them. Plus they did enough research earlier to know they were having no luck selling the open road stuff. After the initial more confusing than threatening entry of the naked party, a few diplomacy checks and a promise to help with the research matters calmed down... and when fumbus and Ezren both crit craft checks to help with their research they made such good friends I decided they were ok with the party making a copy of the ooze research so long as they kept the original.

All in all great fun.

Still trying to work out how downtime checks work for this though... for now I didn't give the players the downtime as giving it at level 5 to a level 1 char seemed broken and anything else seemed house rule. I've promised to fix it up once I know the rules, if anyone can help me here it'd be great.

Dark Archive 3/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Colorado—Denver aka masterslate

Tim Schneider wrote:
Still trying to work out how downtime checks work for this though... for now I didn't give the players the downtime as giving it at level 5 to a level 1 char seemed broken and anything else seemed house rule. I've promised to fix it up once I know the rules, if anyone can help me here it'd be great.

Short answer: It depends.

Long answer:

Guild Guide v0.04 wrote:
You can apply credit from a higher-tier adventure to a 1st-level Pathfinder Society character. When doing so, you gain only the gold appropriate to a 1st-level character. You do not benefit from any boons until your Pathfinder Society character reaches the minimum level listed on the Chronicle sheet, unless otherwise noted.
If they're applying it to a level 1 character, my understanding is you would use the dayjob of the character the chronicle is being applied to. If that character is not yet built, I think you're just SOL on the downtime, since downtime must be used at the end of the session in which it was earned.
Quote:

Special: This adventure was designed for use with pregenerated characters. You can assign this Chronicle sheet to any character of

levels 1–5 who does not already have a copy of this Chronicle sheet.

However, there's also the rule that says:

Guild Guide v0.04 wrote:

You may apply a pregenerated character’s Chronicle sheet to one of your Pathfinder Society characters once your Pathfinder Society character reaches the level of the pregenerated character used to play through it. For example, if you played a 5th-level pregenerated character, you would apply the credit once your character reaches 5th level.

...

Downtime: Pregenerated characters can use Downtime.

So, you could use the pregens downtime roll, which would be available when the PC reaches level 5. In this case, they would get all the boons at level 1, since the chronicle says level 1-5.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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Earn Income is not a boon, so it's not covered by the delayed gratification clause.

I also don't think it's covered by the scale-to-L1 rule, that one seems intent on scaling the treasure bundles.

It seems like this one particular scenario is quite lucrative for lower level characters. For a level 1 character, that's about 30% extra gold. However, I don't think it's really cause for alarm. The scenario isn't evergreen. And it's only a lot of money relatively speaking; the advantage fades rather quickly as regular scenario awards quickly become bigger than that. By level 3 it's as if you had earned one extra treasure bundle, hardly reason for panic.

So I'd say just let people enjoy it this once.

Dark Archive 3/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Colorado—Denver aka masterslate

Regarding the research work section -- at 6 successes, they "are aware
they have exhausted all their research avenues in the Orrery Archive."

Yet there are 3 more successes. Is that a typo? or are players supposed to assume that there must be more?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Newcastle aka Tim Schneider 908

Yeah, I wasn't sure how to proceed there too - as if they stop at that heavy-handed GM "You're done here" they lose their primary success condition as the permit comes after it.

I read what it said to read, cause I felt like I should... but added "But you're seasoned pathfinders, and surely are aware it's worth double checking before you move on right?" (In my most 'this is the actual GM hint' voice I could muster). The party thought that info came from a crit-fail not the scenario until I admitted it after :P


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Doing some catchup on my paperwork, and I just realized that the Chronicle sheet from this one doesn't have space for Fame. Do we still receive the 4 Fame from this scenario? Or does this scenario provide Reputation but no Fame?

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

azjauthor wrote:
Doing some catchup on my paperwork, and I just realized that the Chronicle sheet from this one doesn't have space for Fame. Do we still receive the 4 Fame from this scenario? Or does this scenario provide Reputation but no Fame?

?

Fame is in the lower right corner, just like the other chronicles.

2/5

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

The chronicles were updated very early on after they dropped. If you downloaded the original they had no spot for fame. Within the first week they re-released it with the new form.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The GM who ran it likely pulled them as soon as they dropped. Thanks!

Certainly not the first time. I had a Starfinder repeatable Scenario that I played and ran a couple of times before I played it with someone else and found out they'd updated the chronicle to a different credit amount.

Silver Crusade 5/5

We TPKed last night (later reversed by GM fiat for reasons that I found unconvincing).

The Black Pudding is just brutal. We knew we were fighting oozes but it never occurred to us that we'd need to go get better weapons. So, maybe our bad. But this is an INTRODUCTORY scenario and we were all concentrating on learning the rules, our characters, etc. And we've all been well trained to stay on the obvious railroad tracks in PFS. I guess a TPK will learn us :-)

An all but automatic grab on a creature with reach is just brutal. The check to get out isn't too bad but that takes 1 action, getting in reach takes a second, allowing only one hit. Which then splits the ooze. What happened to us seems quite likely. A character got grabbed early so running away was no longer a great option (you're leaving a character to die)

The scenario seems to assume that the wizard (who may or may not be along, of course) will make a knowledge check before the party splits the ooze into several component parts. Never happened since the wizard was slow and we'd already split the ooze into too many parts to handle by the time his initiative came up.

This would be hard with level 5 characters made by players. With pregens it really is over the top in how difficult it is. The pudding is fairly likely to crit whoever he hits and, depending on which character that is, fairly likely to put him unconscious in a single round (a full round attack starting with a crit does 6d8+28+6d6 damage, or 75 pts of damage on average).

And only one of the Pregens has in battle healing. We made the fatal mistake of not choosing to bring Kyra. Yes, PF2 has all sorts of ways to make a cleric no longer essential. Except none of the pregens had them.

This scenario brought me one step closer to deciding that PFS2 isn't for me (a lot of the issues I'm seeing can be handled by a decent GM. Except in PFS where GMs don't have the freedom to be decent :-().

If it was my first exposure to PFS2 it would definitely have been my last. As it is, it may well be my last.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

It sounds like you just got some very bad luck with the ooze fight.

It's got a decent chance to crit, but not a likely chance as the AC of just about every PC is 22, requiring a roll of at least 14 on the die to crit on the first attack. Grab takes an action, as does constrict. The most likely turn for a black pudding is Attack, Grab, and Constrict for 3d8+14 bludgeoning plus 3d6 acid. If the PC doesn't escape it will most likely keep the Grab and Constrict the next round, costing it two actions for 1d8+7 bludgeoning plus 1d6 acid.

There's two ways to handle the split ability. One is to only use bludgeoning weapons and spells and the other is to deliberately split it as fast as possible and let Ezren and Fumbus deal with it (fireball and bombs). The second requires a lot more player coordination using delays and careful targeting to make sure you split it as far down as possible between its turn and Ezren/Fumbus. Unfortunately what often happens is that individual players pursue a mix of strategies and the end result is several barely damaged puddings.

It is a big problem that Amiri and Merisiel have no way to damage the black pudding by default.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Our Amiri beat the pudding to death with rage-fueled, hasted fists. Admittedly, our team was experienced 1E players, so the idea might not occur to newer arrivals. Having Kyra and being able to throw spiritual weapon also helped.

2/5

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Yup, its a doozy of a fight. I've GM'd it 7-8 times now (losing track), most groups split it ~1-2 times and typically at least half the PCs have wounded 1-2 by the end of the fight. I had 2 groups do knowledge checks before entering the sewers after all the ooze references -- both learned about the splitting, one bought blunt weapons for everyone, one decided on the 'intentional split and burn' both of those groups did much better, but even still often had 1 person emerge with wounded. Commonly Valeros or Amiri has lost some of their gear to the ooze's acid too.

It does feel a touch unfair to PF newbies just trying the game out at a convention (where 5 of my tables were). When you have experienced players (even if they've been taught the railroad), at least they understand what's happening after the first split.

2/5

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

We also had one table with Merisiel stealing bombs from Fumbus (skill checks and player permission), Amiri disarming Ezren (again w/ player permission(not character permission)) to get a staff to bludgeon the ooze), before Ezren used his hand of the apprentice to throw the staff and get it back leaving Amiri with nothing (probably not RAW, but the entire table was laughing and enjoying it)

Silver Crusade 5/5

Kevin Willis wrote:
Grab takes an action,

I don't think that is correct. I think it automatically grabs on an attack.

2/5

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

It has regular Grab not Improved Grab. That means after an attack that hits, it can spend an action to grab. Improved Grab makes it a free action.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Grab wrote:

Action(s): one

Requirements The monster’s last action was a success with a Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry, or it has a creature grabbed using this action.

Effect The monster automatically Grabs the target until the end of the monster’s next turn. The creature is grabbed by whichever body part the monster attacked with, and that body part can’t be used to Strike creatures until the grab is ended. Using Grab extends the duration of the monster’s Grab until the end of its next turn for all creatures grabbed by it. A grabbed creature can use the Escape action to get out of the grab, and the Grab ends for a grabbed creatures if the monster moves away from it.

It prevented the first hit from grappling Merisiel in my run, as it was the last action the pudding took, so it had no action to Grab.

Silver Crusade 5/5

NielsenE wrote:
It has regular Grab not Improved Grab. That means after an attack that hits, it can spend an action to grab. Improved Grab makes it a free action.

You're right. GM got it wrong (as did I when I looked up the monster) and it actually would have made a difference in the fight. I feel less bad for the armwaved "you didn't actually die"

But man is PF2 failing the "simpler" goal. It's just as complicated as PF1, just in different places. If I look up a monster and see an action that includes grab I shouldn't have to look up every word in its attack line. One of the stated purposes of the 1,2,3 action icons was to reduce lookup.

I know, learning curve. But when EVERYBODY at a table misses something it's pretty good evidence that things aren't being explained well.

Sorry for being so negative. Part of the problem is that I WANT to like this game, I'm just finding it hard to. I keep stumbling over several issues that really bug me.

2/5

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

No one else at the table is likely looking at the bestiary, so its not the best example.

However, it does help to approach it with a mindset of 'whoops I/we made a mistake, lets fix it and move on' not 'I can't believe we couldn't find it in the first place'. Once you're already in the mindset that its not easier, everything you see will just compound that feeling.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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pauljathome wrote:

We TPKed last night (later reversed by GM fiat for reasons that I found unconvincing).

The Black Pudding is just brutal. We knew we were fighting oozes but it never occurred to us that we'd need to go get better weapons. So, maybe our bad. But this is an INTRODUCTORY scenario and we were all concentrating on learning the rules, our characters, etc. And we've all been well trained to stay on the obvious railroad tracks in PFS. I guess a TPK will learn us :-)

I think to some degree the adventure is intended to shake you of PF1 railroad tracks. It takes an action to do Knowledge checks. The fighter can do that check, Valeros has Occultism. But it would stop him from moving forward and (disastrously!) using Double Slice. Most peoples' instinct is not to "waste" an action on knowledge and pile on the damage. This is a lesson worth learning!

pauljathome wrote:
An all but automatic grab on a creature with reach is just brutal. The check to get out isn't too bad but that takes 1 action, getting in reach takes a second, allowing only one hit. Which then splits the ooze. What happened to us seems quite likely. A character got grabbed early so running away was no longer a great option (you're leaving a character to die)

Note that being grabbed isn't quite as bad as it was in PF1. In PF1 being grappled prevented you using 2H weapons and spells. In PF2 you can still do most things while grabbed, you just need to clear a DC 5 flat check to do Manipulate actions (like spellcasting). It's a lot easier to cast spells in a PF2 grapple than in PF1.

pauljathome wrote:
The scenario seems to assume that the wizard (who may or may not be along, of course) will make a knowledge check before the party splits the ooze into several component parts. Never happened since the wizard was slow and we'd already split the ooze into too many parts to handle by the time his initiative came up.

After the first splitting you didn't pause to think about it? Also, Valeros also has Occultism trained - kinda like how PF1 fighters also had Dungeoneering as a class skill ("what did I just step into").

pauljathome wrote:
This would be hard with level 5 characters made by players. With pregens it really is over the top in how difficult it is. The pudding is fairly likely to crit whoever he hits and, depending on which character that is, fairly likely to put him unconscious in a single round (a full round attack starting with a crit does 6d8+28+6d6 damage, or 75 pts of damage on average).

Actually I've seen especially Valeros use his shield effectively to deflect most of the ooze's attacks, but yeah, he also got critted a lot by it. It's a harsh encounter to be sure, but both when I played it and when I ran it, the pregens won through.

pauljathome wrote:
And only one of the Pregens has in battle healing. We made the fatal mistake of not choosing to bring Kyra. Yes, PF2 has all sorts of ways to make a cleric no longer essential. Except none of the pregens had them.

Well I guess again the scenario works to teach a lesson: always talk about your healing strategy when mustering the party.

pauljathome wrote:

This scenario brought me one step closer to deciding that PFS2 isn't for me (a lot of the issues I'm seeing can be handled by a decent GM. Except in PFS where GMs don't have the freedom to be decent :-().

If it was my first exposure to PFS2 it would definitely have been my last. As it is, it may well be my last.

At this point you're being a bit sour grapes about it. The scenario is surprisingly spicy for an iconic-only one, but it isn't as bad as you describe it. Both times I saw it in action was with a group with mixed experience as gamers, and they made it through intact. And both the other guy and me as GM didn't feel that the scenario got in our way while we tried to be a decent GM.

You guys had several chances to avert disaster:
- Think twice before not bringing any proper healing character. I mean, Medicine is nice but apparently you didn't even check if the other characters could actually do that.
- During the investigation in town, a critical success on asking about oozes warns you about oozes splitting.
- Both the library investigation and the investigation in town are rife with hints about oozes being a thing. You could have thought "hey we're likely to face oozes, maybe we should think bout what we could do to prepare for that".
- When you actually faced the ooze, both the wizard and the fighter have the skill to know more about it.
- When you first split the ooze, that's a damn good hint something is up. But you imply that you guys split it more than once. Why did you keep doing a thing that was working out very badly?

Dark Archive 5/5 Venture-Agent, Ohio—Columbus aka Cirithiel

The pudding fights were tough, since most of the pregens were built to use Pointy-Slashy Things.

But... in 2E, *everyone* is trained in unarmed attacks. Once the party splits the first one and realizes the Attack did no damage at all, the GM might need to give the party a hint on how to stop the things. The two best plans I have seen so far are to create as many puddings as possible and let Ezren roast em all like giant marshmallows, or for the melee characters to throw down their weapons and start punching it in the squishy bits.

As we all learn a new rule set, I think a few hints from the GM on better tactics is a good thing. I’m not advocating telling people how to play their characters, but I suspect that very few players will realize that everyone is now trained to punch things — this is a change from how we are all used to thinking.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
pauljathome wrote:

We TPKed last night (later reversed by GM fiat for reasons that I found unconvincing).

The Black Pudding is just brutal.

I'm not going to quote all of your response but I will reply to the gist of it,

I totally agree that we could have done some things better. Both the GM and players made some mistakes that contributed to the TPK.

But in an introductory scenario for a brand new game system I think it is just too hard. One can EXPECT the GM and Players to make mistakes. An introductory scenario shouldn't be so difficult that a failure to play smart (by looking for information on oozes BEFORE going in) combined with a bit of bad luck ends up in a TPK.

Quote:


I think to some degree the adventure is intended to shake you of PF1 railroad tracks. It takes an action to do Knowledge checks. The fighter can do that check, Valeros has Occultism. But it would stop him from moving forward and (disastrously!) using Double Slice. Most peoples' instinct is not to "waste" an action on knowledge and pile on the damage. This is a lesson worth learning!

I wasn't playing Valeros. I don't think that it even occurred to the player that Occultism would let him know something about oozes. Maybe the GM should have hinted.

Quote:


Note that being grabbed isn't quite as bad as it was in PF1.

Agreed, but it is also WORSE than in PF1 in one significant respect. As far as i can see you aren't pulled adjacent so given that you're grabbed by a creature with reach the fighter (assuming no reach weapon which is the case for pregens) can't even strike back.

Quote:


Well I guess again the scenario works to teach a lesson: always talk about your healing strategy when mustering the party.

It was an online game. The player who was going to play Kyra didn't show up. We briefly discussed somebody swapping into playing Kyra but it was pointed out that PF2 was designed to make the cleric no longer essential. So we believed the hype and nobody chose to bite the bullet and play Kyra.

Our mistake I guess. The lesson is to not believe Paizo? Yes, I know this is largely unfair. It IS true that other characters can take on the healing role. Just none of the pregens. But is it really good introductory adventure design to make the cleric so crucial a character? I'm going to say no.

Quote:


At this point you're being a bit sour grapes about it.

Not really, no. In my experience a very large number of new players take quite badly to character death, especially to what seems like unfair character death.

As to me, I didn't really mind the TPK per se (the chronicle was attached to a brand new character. No way I'm risking a real character on a Paizo pregen only scenario :-) :-)). One of my biggest concerns with PF2 is how limited and expensive knowledge skills are. And how crucial they seem to be. This scenario accentuated that concern. Big time.

I've got a knowledge monkey character. I'm getting very close to deciding that he is the only character I'll ever play in PFS because that role is so crucial and, in PFS, you can't rely on the other players.

I stand by my original position. This is too hard FOR AN INTRODUCTORY PREGEN ONLY ADVENTURE. Its acceptably hard with player built characters, its probably even going to be acceptable for pregens a year from now when the players and GM know all the rules. But it is too unforgiving for right now when the GMs and players are all making substantial mistakes.

As I said, the GM thought that he'd made enough mistakes that he retconned the TPK. Now that I know that he oops'd on the grab I almost agree with him. But mistakes like that are all but inevitable at this stage (I'm most certainly not blaming him in any way).

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka The ShadowShackleton

Can’t agree with you there. I have now run it 4 times and it has been a fun introduction to the game with a suitable challenge that forced them to really work to succeed but was achievable with some reasonable GMing. A few times characters have been put down but no one has died in any of those runnings.

There are a couple of points in the adventure when you can gather information and learn about split specifically., giving you a chance to prepare so you may have missed these clues as well.

One of my groups decided to split the pudding over and over again and then fireballed the whole room, friends and all, to kill the puddings.

Another group attacked it with their fists and slings to kill it.

The deadliest encounter for most groups was the trap and persistent acid damage.

It seems like you keep finding things that cause you to lose heart with 2e, only to find the rules weren’t followed or your initial assumptions were incorrect.

I have played at your tables and found you to be a lot of fun to play with so I don’t get where all this negativity on the boards comes from sometimes, but next time you think “this time my expectations that this game will suck have finally come true” I advise you to take a deep breath and check first that significant mistakes were not made in how the scenario was run before using that experience or an assumption to judge the system a failure.

Give it a fair chance! You might come to enjoy the new system if you don’t keep jumping to conclusions.

I say this with the friendliest of intentions.

Dark Archive 5/5

pauljathome wrote:

Agreed, but it is also WORSE than in PF1 in one significant respect. As far as i can see you aren't pulled adjacent so given that you're grabbed by a creature with reach the fighter (assuming no reach weapon which is the case for pregens) can't even strike back.

Core Rulebook pg. 475 wrote:
Sometimes part of a creature extends beyond its space, such as if a giant octopus is grabbing you with its tentacles. In that case, the GM will usually allow attacking the extended portion, even if you can’t reach the main creature.

Silver Crusade 5/5

DrParty06 wrote:
pauljathome wrote:

Agreed, but it is also WORSE than in PF1 in one significant respect. As far as i can see you aren't pulled adjacent so given that you're grabbed by a creature with reach the fighter (assuming no reach weapon which is the case for pregens) can't even strike back.

Core Rulebook pg. 475 wrote:
Sometimes part of a creature extends beyond its space, such as if a giant octopus is grabbing you with its tentacles. In that case, the GM will usually allow attacking the extended portion, even if you can’t reach the main creature.

I missed that. Thanks.

Too many versions of D&D floating in my head, all with fairly minor (but quite significant) differences. I'm an old fart, its hard to keep track of which is which :-(

Glen Shackleton wrote:


Give it a fair chance!

I am really trying to! One reason that I post has been to see if people can convince me that I'm wrong :-). Or to identify mistakes that have been made.

But I also do realize that not all games are right for all people. And, unfortunately, its becoming quite likely that PF2 (at least PFS2) is just not for me. I have NOT yet made that decision but I'm definitely headed in that direction.

Oh, and I AM giving it a fair chance. Played every PFS scenario out there so far, ran most of them. Played under a variety of GMs.

Sorry that I'm coming across as quite negative. Not my intent although I definitely see how I'm coming across that way.

Also, for what its worth, I'm NOT saying that PF2 is a bad game. I am saying that I'm not sure its the game for me, which is a very different statement.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka The ShadowShackleton

Yep I can see that it won’t be everyone’s cup of tea. Perfectly ok with that but do wish more would give it a fair shake before deciding that arbitrarily out of the gates.

I was a huge skeptic but I now see it solves a lot of gameplay issues rather elegantly.

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