Whirling Throw Monk feat


Advice


Anyone know what the best use of this feat is? This version no longer has create pit line of spells so throwing the enemy into the party wizards pit no longer applies.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=456

When the enemy is thrown would the party fighter get an AOO? Does the enemy spend an action standing back up on its turn? Is there something else? Is this feat good or bad?


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I think I read somewhere that involuntary movement does not provoke AoO.

Best use I can think for it is throwing gnomes and goblins at walls or off cliffs. In that regard, I consider it an excellent feat. :P


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Forced movement does not provoke AoOs.

If the enemy is prone, standing up takes an action an does provoke an AoO. The enemy landing prone is the critical success result for whirling throw.

The wizard in your party not being able to create a pit in every encounter does not mean that there is never something to throw an enemy into or off of.

This feat is great, sometimes, but not necessarily Standard Procedure that you always want to follow.


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It's great with hazards you set up like Wall of Fire, Blade Barrier, and anything else of the like.


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For an epic visual, scatter some Caltrops and then toss someone on them. XD


HammerJack wrote:

Forced movement does not provoke AoOs.

If the enemy is prone, standing up takes an action an does provoke an AoO. The enemy landing prone is the critical success result for whirling throw.

The wizard in your party not being able to create a pit in every encounter does not mean that there is never something to throw an enemy into or off of.

This feat is great, sometimes, but not necessarily Standard Procedure that you always want to follow.

Interesting, so when would you use this?


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When you're atop a wall, or building.

When there is a cliff.

Or a deep hole. Or a large fire. Or a big pile of pointy stuff. Or a tiger cage. Or a dangerous mystical rift between planes of reality. Or a large pile of manure. Or a trap the party found and bypassed instead of disabling. Or anything else you wouldn't want to step on.

I mean, adventuring doesn't all happen in featureless stone rooms.

Or when your ranger friend set a snare earlier.

Or when there's a space between your rogue friend and your fighter friend that you could toss the enemy into so they can unload all of their actions into attacking a flanked enemy.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Or example from the play test my group did. Friendly druid makes a raised platform with wall of stone,monk throws off any enemy that makes it up to melee.


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Not to mention it's a pretty nice defensive move.

Someone's at your back line?
Move to him, Flurry of maneuvers to grab him and either punch him or trip him, throw him.

In a strength build that's like 3d6+2xStr damage and he's now prone and 30 ft away, needing at least 2 actions to come back to the backline

Even better, if there are 2 enemies next to you, you can grab both with Flurry and throw them 30 ft away, dealing the same 3d6+2xStr to each.


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They're only prone if the throw is critical success, which is odd.


HammerJack wrote:
They're only prone if the throw is critical success, which is odd.

the prone i was talking about was from grab+trip on the flurry. hence why i said trip them or hit them.


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Ah. That does make sense, though I think all you have to offset the maxed out MAP is the flat footed condition from prone.


HammerJack wrote:
Ah. That does make sense, though I think all you have to offset the maxed out MAP is the flat footed condition from prone.

oups wrong reply.

well, yeah, but we were talking in another thread about actually using assurance to offset MAP


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Wait... whirling throw doesn't actually have the attack trait, and the athletics check isn't a grapple check or some other action with the attack trait baked in? Is it MAP free?

Assurance, though, looks like it only beats out things at your level or above if they have a really weak save to target, from my flip through the bestiary (which was not 100% comprehensive, to be fair)


HammerJack wrote:

Wait... whirling throw doesn't actually have the attack trait, and the athletics check isn't a grapple check or some other action with the attack trait baked in? Is it MAP free?

Assurance, though, looks like it only beats out things at your level or above if they have a really weak save to target, from my flip through the bestiary (which was not 100% comprehensive, to be fair)

oh, you're right.

yeah it doesn't suffer from MAP.

i guess it's similar to the equivalent Brabarian grappling feat Thrash which also isn't an attack (but uses base save instead)

basically they seem like 3rd actions to use in grappling builds.


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Use it alongside Terrified Retreat feat. Grab your enemy by the collar of their shirt, throw them away, and make them run in terror as you scream "Get Off My Lawn!"


I love that imagery. Like, you just grab two guys by the collar and do like a partial backwards roll to throw them, like a sacrifice throw but flinging them up instead of driving their noggins into the ground. XD


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An idea - take the combat climbing feat to reduce the number of hands needed to climb to one. Then, whenever someone tries to climb nearby you, use your monastic speed to climb next to 'em, grab 'em by their ankle, and throw 'em 30ft off the wall! Falling damage got buffed, so this might actually kill people.


shroudb wrote:

Not to mention it's a pretty nice defensive move.

Someone's at your back line?
Move to him, Flurry of maneuvers to grab him and either punch him or trip him, throw him.

In a strength build that's like 3d6+2xStr damage and he's now prone and 30 ft away, needing at least 2 actions to come back to the backline

Even better, if there are 2 enemies next to you, you can grab both with Flurry and throw them 30 ft away, dealing the same 3d6+2xStr to each.

Or I could grab the guy, unarmed strike him, and then whirling throw him and do 1D8+4 (from unarmed strike) and then 3d6+4(Crushing Grab)+4(Str mod)?


Atalius wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Not to mention it's a pretty nice defensive move.

Someone's at your back line?
Move to him, Flurry of maneuvers to grab him and either punch him or trip him, throw him.

In a strength build that's like 3d6+2xStr damage and he's now prone and 30 ft away, needing at least 2 actions to come back to the backline

Even better, if there are 2 enemies next to you, you can grab both with Flurry and throw them 30 ft away, dealing the same 3d6+2xStr to each.

Or I could grab the guy, unarmed strike him, and then whirling throw him and do 1D8+4 (from unarmed strike) and then 3d6+4(Crushing Grab)+4(Str mod)?

that's why i said strike or trip.

yes, if damage is more important than him losing an action to stand up and being flat footed for the rest of the team, sure, go ahead and punch him ^^


shroudb wrote:
Atalius wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Not to mention it's a pretty nice defensive move.

Someone's at your back line?
Move to him, Flurry of maneuvers to grab him and either punch him or trip him, throw him.

In a strength build that's like 3d6+2xStr damage and he's now prone and 30 ft away, needing at least 2 actions to come back to the backline

Even better, if there are 2 enemies next to you, you can grab both with Flurry and throw them 30 ft away, dealing the same 3d6+2xStr to each.

Or I could grab the guy, unarmed strike him, and then whirling throw him and do 1D8+4 (from unarmed strike) and then 3d6+4(Crushing Grab)+4(Str mod)?

that's why i said strike or trip.

yes, if damage is more important than him losing an action to stand up and being flat footed for the rest of the team, sure, go ahead and punch him ^^

But wouldn't he lose the prone condition right after you threw him across the room so he wouldn't need to spend an action getting up? He's only prone when you trip him, once he's out of your grasp he basically is no longer prone (unless you critically succeed and he lands prone) correct?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Atalius wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Atalius wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Not to mention it's a pretty nice defensive move.

Someone's at your back line?
Move to him, Flurry of maneuvers to grab him and either punch him or trip him, throw him.

In a strength build that's like 3d6+2xStr damage and he's now prone and 30 ft away, needing at least 2 actions to come back to the backline

Even better, if there are 2 enemies next to you, you can grab both with Flurry and throw them 30 ft away, dealing the same 3d6+2xStr to each.

Or I could grab the guy, unarmed strike him, and then whirling throw him and do 1D8+4 (from unarmed strike) and then 3d6+4(Crushing Grab)+4(Str mod)?

that's why i said strike or trip.

yes, if damage is more important than him losing an action to stand up and being flat footed for the rest of the team, sure, go ahead and punch him ^^

But wouldn't he lose the prone condition right after you threw him across the room so he wouldn't need to spend an action getting up? He's only prone when you trip him, once he's out of your grasp he basically is no longer prone (unless you critically succeed and he lands prone) correct?

Why would they lose the Prone condition? The Prone condition is ended one way, taking the Stand action.


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Atalius wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Atalius wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Not to mention it's a pretty nice defensive move.

Someone's at your back line?
Move to him, Flurry of maneuvers to grab him and either punch him or trip him, throw him.

In a strength build that's like 3d6+2xStr damage and he's now prone and 30 ft away, needing at least 2 actions to come back to the backline

Even better, if there are 2 enemies next to you, you can grab both with Flurry and throw them 30 ft away, dealing the same 3d6+2xStr to each.

Or I could grab the guy, unarmed strike him, and then whirling throw him and do 1D8+4 (from unarmed strike) and then 3d6+4(Crushing Grab)+4(Str mod)?

that's why i said strike or trip.

yes, if damage is more important than him losing an action to stand up and being flat footed for the rest of the team, sure, go ahead and punch him ^^

But wouldn't he lose the prone condition right after you threw him across the room so he wouldn't need to spend an action getting up? He's only prone when you trip him, once he's out of your grasp he basically is no longer prone (unless you critically succeed and he lands prone) correct?

he loses the grabbed condition, not the prone one.

the prone one has nothing to do with your position.

the way i see this working is that basically when he's tripped, you throw him like a sack of potatoes, and he lands on his butt.

while without the trip beforehand, he was standing (grabbed) when you throw him, so he may land on his feet unless you throw him really good (crit success)


Couldn't I just Grab+Attack+Whirling Throw and wouldn't that result in the enemy being prone without having to Trip them? This is assuming when you throw the enemy they don't naturally land on there feet.


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You might want to reread whirling throw. People are apparently great at rolling with the impact on Golarion, and they only land prone on a critical success.

WHERE you throw them may impact this.


Oh right only on Crit success, so it's assumed they just roll and recover damn.


shroudb wrote:

Not to mention it's a pretty nice defensive move.

Someone's at your back line?
Move to him, Flurry of maneuvers to grab him and either punch him or trip him, throw him.

In a strength build that's like 3d6+2xStr damage and he's now prone and 30 ft away, needing at least 2 actions to come back to the backline

Even better, if there are 2 enemies next to you, you can grab both with Flurry and throw them 30 ft away, dealing the same 3d6+2xStr to each.

It's my understanding that you can't do two different Manuevers with Flurry of Manuevers, with Mixed Manuever you could grab them and then trip them, but with Flurry your basically looking to either trip OR grab, but not both?


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Atalius wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Not to mention it's a pretty nice defensive move.

Someone's at your back line?
Move to him, Flurry of maneuvers to grab him and either punch him or trip him, throw him.

In a strength build that's like 3d6+2xStr damage and he's now prone and 30 ft away, needing at least 2 actions to come back to the backline

Even better, if there are 2 enemies next to you, you can grab both with Flurry and throw them 30 ft away, dealing the same 3d6+2xStr to each.

It's my understanding that you can't do two different Manuevers with Flurry of Manuevers, with Mixed Manuever you could grab them and then trip them, but with Flurry your basically looking to either trip OR grab, but not both?

Flurry of Maneuvers says you can replace one or both of the strikes with trips, grapples, or shoves. I think it follows that you can replace one strike with a trip and one strike with a grapple.


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Flurry of maneuvers definitely doesn't say they have to be the same maneuver.


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HammerJack wrote:

You might want to reread whirling throw. People are apparently great at rolling with the impact on Golarion, and they only land prone on a critical success.

WHERE you throw them may impact this.

And? Critical Success applies prone, but the other states don't say it undoes Prone. That would be like saying if you fail to Poison someone they immediately remove all other poisons.

The Crit Success is a bonus effect, its existence doesn't invalidate previous game states.


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Malk_Content wrote:
HammerJack wrote:

You might want to reread whirling throw. People are apparently great at rolling with the impact on Golarion, and they only land prone on a critical success.

WHERE you throw them may impact this.

And? Critical Success applies prone, but the other states don't say it undoes Prone. That would be like saying if you fail to Poison someone they immediately remove all other poisons.

The Crit Success is a bonus effect, its existence doesn't invalidate previous game states.

The post you quoted was a response to the question immediately above.

What I was answering wrote:


Couldn't I just Grab+Attack+Whirling Throw and wouldn't that result in the enemy being prone without having to Trip them? This is assuming when you throw the enemy they don't naturally land on there feet.

I am not saying that an enemy that was prone would lose the condition.


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Ah my bad


HammerJack wrote:

You might want to reread whirling throw. People are apparently great at rolling with the impact on Golarion, and they only land prone on a critical success.

WHERE you throw them may impact this.

re: "WHERE" - This may be to what you were referring, but one could throw their foe to a square that would cause a >5ft drop to apply prone and light damage. Staying heads-up in combat to look for such opportunities sounds like fun.

Also, if you can find the one GM who allows it, directing your throw to be nearly vertical would add ~15 damage and auto prone to all successes.


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Throwing people off of things, so that they need to deal with a vertical drop as well was one of the things I was thinking of, yes.


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Is the thrown enemy an improvised thrown weapon? Can you throw a guy at another guy? Also: I made a titan stature barbarian around this feat so that you get that sweet sweet +10 to the throw for being big.


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Boomstik101 wrote:
Is the thrown enemy an improvised thrown weapon? Can you throw a guy at another guy? Also: I made a titan stature barbarian around this feat so that you get that sweet sweet +10 to the throw for being big.

I'd say no as a base.

The Barbarian Thrash line of feats has that "use the grabbed enemy as a club" ability though later on @16.

Using that one as a base it'll be pretty easy to house rule an additional feat that basically something like:
"base Reflex for the same amount of damage on a secondary enemy, crit fail the save and he also drops prone"


Could I attempt to try and Trip two different enemies using Flurry of Blows?


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Atalius wrote:
Could I attempt to try and Trip two different enemies using Flurry of Blows?

if you're using Flurry of Maneuvers and they are both adjustent to you, yes.


Sounds like I would be able to pinpoint the location within the specified range where I would like to throw the enemy, which could be between two allies?

It does say "You can throw the creature any distance up to 10 feet, plus 5 feet × your Strength modifier." So would that mean vertically as well resulting in falling damage and prone?


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You might be able to find a GM who would allow that. I would give that one a hard no, myself.


HammerJack wrote:
You might be able to find a GM who would allow that. I would give that one a hard no, myself.

You mean throwing enemy vertically or pinpointing where the enemy goes?


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Throwing the enemy vertically.

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