Giant Instinct Barbarian, a question

[Yako Zenko]

So, reading the Giant Instinct seems all sorts of fun for a small race. If purely from a fluff point of view. One thing I have noticed though is, as-written, small characters actually end up being nerfed on fluff without having any mechanical affect. Which, honestly, just feels bad to me, since fluff is where players should be able to have fun if it doesn't change the mechanics.

Let me explain:

The Titan mauler instinct first sentence reads "You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium (both normally and when raging)." This is a fun, fluffy, rule. Good so far. Then we skip down two sentences and we hit this hiccup, bold mine for emphasis. "You gain access to one weapon one size larger than you, of any weapon type otherwise available at character creation."

A small creature is never described anywhere else as being unable to use medium weapons. (At least that I can find). In fact, it looks to be intended to simplify things that small creatures can use medium creature loot, that way you don't need to specify as much in standard situations.

If that is the case, while your small character can wield a Large weapon, they specifically have to be given access to it. As the ability as written, does not. (Society characters, I sense this being a big pain point for all of you.)

On a different note, the specifics of the Titan Mauler giving you the ability to wield a Large weapon as small or medium... Is already written as the base rule in item sizes, complete with the Clumsy affect. As such, the instinct does two things: Medium creatures gain access to large weapons (never explicitly called out as can't anywhere I can find) and gives the base damage increase.

In short. I see nothing small characters gain from the instinct besides the basic damage increase. (which is great and I approve of btw.) The Medium characters (the ones you expect as barbarians admittedly) keep all the goodies. But the halfling/goblin/gnome who wants to use ridiculously over-sized weapons are out of luck. (Affecting fluff, but not the mechanics. thus, bad IMHO. Especially since they were allowable in the playtest and already come with the negative to Strength).

[Captain Morgan]

1) I actually think they got rid of the distinction between small and medium weapons. I haven't been able to find anything and there is some text I came across implying it.

2) Even if they are still separate, "access" just means the GM has to let you purchase it. It isn't like you get it for free, and most GMs are going to let you get the large weapon regardless of your size if you have that instinct.

[Yako Zenko]

Captain Morgan wrote:

1) I actually think they got rid of the distinction between small and medium weapons. I haven't been able to find anything and there is some text I came across implying it.

2) Even if they are still separate, "access" just means the GM has to let you purchase it. It isn't like you get it for free, and most GMs are going to let you get the large weapon regardless of your size if you have that instinct.

Yes, I couldn't find a distinction in weapons either. However the description mentions one size larger, and we know there IS a size distinction between Medium and Small as described in the ability to move through occupied squares.

As for the latter, you are correct. I bring this all up mostly for two reasons, and see if this is accidental or not. Firstly, for most players, nowhere does it describe what is, or isn't, available size access. If they are all supposed to be available, then there is no point in the text of the instinct ability. If there is supposed to be a limit, then the information is contained only in a single class ability.

The second part is for Organized Play, where, as written, access to said weapon, which has different Bulk and Cost, is going to be on a per-GM choice, without being a single mechanical reason to not openly allow it.

[Yako Zenko]

I am following up on this thread, as I have realized that Small characters are teh only size-category that not benefit from the Giant Instinct. Every other size category, including Medium, is given access to the weapon size they are allotted by the Instinct Ability. Small characters, however, are NOT given that access.

I am really starting to wonder if this was intentional, or an attempt to save space in writing text, gone horribly awry.

[rayous brightblade]

not benefit? Its an advantage to be able to use a medium size weapon and get your larger rage bonus. Large weapons have double bulk and cost twice as much.

Though if you can find a weapon of large size (since you don't have access to it) you can still wield it and its hilarious as the size difference is amazing.

Also the giant stature/titan's stature feats set you to a set size so you have no issues there (funny fact, huge giant instinct barbarians would shrink with giant stature).

[PossibleCabbage]

Oddly, from the playtest the language changed from

Quote:

You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium (both normally and when raging). If you’re not Small or Medium, you can use a weapon built for a creature one size larger than you. You also gain access to your choice of weapon at character creation.

to

Quote:

You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium (both normally and when raging). If you’re not Small or Medium, you can use a weapon built for a creature one size larger than you. You gain access to one weapon one size larger than you, of any weapon type otherwise available at character creation.

So I think the idea was to clean up the language so titan mauler didn't give you access to literally any weapon, but they accidentally edged out small giants.

Probably the last sentence in the above should read:

Quote:

You gain access to one weapon built for a Large creature or one size larger than you, of any weapon type otherwise available at character creation.

[Slamy Mcbiteo]

It seems to me there is no differences between small and medium weapons any more...damage and bulk are the same.

I think Titan Mauler just removes the penalties and gives you access to the weapon..

Core Rule Book page 295 wrote:

In most cases, Small or Medium creatures can wield a Large weapon, though it’s unwieldy, giving them the clumsy 1 condition, and the larger size is canceled by the difficulty of swinging the weapon, so it grants no special benefit.

So small weapons appear to be a thing of the past..even the bulk is same between small and medium weapons...same page shows the bulk conversions by size.

So a large weapon is one size larger then both small and medium weapons I guess

Well that seems to be my take

[Yako Zenko]

Slamy Mcbiteo wrote:

It seems to me there is no differences between small and medium weapons any more...damage and bulk are the same.

I think Titan Mauler just removes the penalties and gives you access to the weapon..

Core Rule Book page 295 wrote:

In most cases, Small or Medium creatures can wield a Large weapon, though it’s unwieldy, giving them the clumsy 1 condition, and the larger size is canceled by the difficulty of swinging the weapon, so it grants no special benefit.

So small weapons appear to be a thing of the past..even the bulk is same between small and medium weapons...same page shows the bulk conversions by size.

So a large weapon is one size larger then both small and medium weapons I guess

Well that seems to be my take

Titan Mauler ability still gives the Clumsy 1 trait (I didn't copy the last sentences of the ability, but it mentions that there.) So that part is actually identical to the Size charts portion. As for small weapons being a thing of the past, while stats, cost, and bulk are identical. That doesn't change the description of the ability being "one size category larger." Where-as there is a distinction made in size between Small and Medium characters. Therefore, the small and medium weapons exist, but have no mechanical difference.

Which, looking at it further, actually means the Titan Mauler instinct mechanically nerfs the small barbarian, as they now get the Clumsy 1 trait even when wielding their selected Medium weapon. Due to how the ability is written.

"You gain access to one weapon one size larger than you, of any weapon type otherwise available at character creation. It has the normal Price and Bulk for a weapon of its size (page 295). When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from Rage from 2 to 6, but you have the clumsy 1 condition (page 618) because of the weapon’s unwieldy size. You can’t remove this clumsy condition or ignore its penalties by any means while wielding the weapon."

[Slamy Mcbiteo]

Well I am going to play it that Small and Medium weapons are basically one size now statistically, no differences in bulk or damage as far as I can tell. So one size larger of either a small or medium weapon is a large weapon, then the small barbarian does not get nerfed.

I agree it is confusing that seems to be different then the actually creature size. Maybe there will be a FAQ coming out about PF2 to clarify :)

[rayous brightblade]

In fact small barbarians are buffed, not nerfed. Sure gaining access to a medium weapon is useless as they already have access. But medium giant instinct barbarians get access to only one. So that is all they will be using unless they fight a giant and steal their weapon. A small giant instinct barbarian can find all non advanced weapons as easy as going to a store.

[Claxon]

Mechanically all the benefit comes from wielding a weapon sized for a creature one size greater than yourself.

So a small sized barbarian with Giant Instinct with a medium weapon benefits in the same way as a medium sized barbarian with giant instinct with a large weapon.

They're exactly as effective.

[rayous brightblade]

arguably more effective as their weapons don't cost double, dont have double bulk, and don't require access to get.

[thistledown]

Following up on that, what about the Giant's Stature feat? Sure, you get reach, and clumsy 1 (which you already had). But what other benefit do you get for becoming Large and having "your equipment grow with you"?

[Yako Zenko]

Claxon wrote:

Mechanically all the benefit comes from wielding a weapon sized for a creature one size greater than yourself.

So a small sized barbarian with Giant Instinct with a medium weapon benefits in the same way as a medium sized barbarian with giant instinct with a large weapon.

They're exactly as effective.

Mechanically, medium weapons are not listed as providing Clumsy 1 for small creatures.

all from the page on item sizes.

"Creatures of sizes other than Small or Medium need items appropriate to their size"

"In most cases, Small or Medium creatures can wield a Large weapon, though it’s unwieldy, giving them the clumsy 1 condition, and the larger size is canceled by the difficulty of swinging the weapon, so it grants no special benefit."

in the instinct ability

"You gain access to one weapon one size larger than you, of any weapon type otherwise available at character creation. It has the normal Price and Bulk for a weapon of its size (page 295). When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from Rage from 2 to 6, but you have the clumsy 1 condition (page 618) because of the weapon’s unwieldy size."

RAW, a normal small creature wielding a medium weapon incurs no negatives. The Titan mauler suddenly does.

However, whether this counts as truly debuffing small creatures due to the admittedly cheaper cost and bulk of thd weapon, is up for debate.

[Claxon]

thistledown wrote:

Following up on that, what about the Giant's Stature feat? Sure, you get reach, and clumsy 1 (which you already had). But what other benefit do you get for becoming Large and having "your equipment grow with you"?

If you take Titan Wrestler you can grapple a lot of stuff as a huge size humanoid (by also picking up Titan Stature). You can wrestle Gigantic creatures.

Really though, being Huge is cool enough on its own.

[Claxon]

Yako Zenko wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Mechanically all the benefit comes from wielding a weapon sized for a creature one size greater than yourself.

So a small sized barbarian with Giant Instinct with a medium weapon benefits in the same way as a medium sized barbarian with giant instinct with a large weapon.

They're exactly as effective.

Mechanically, medium weapons are not listed as providing Clumsy 1 for small creatures.

all from the page on item sizes.

"Creatures of sizes other than Small or Medium need items appropriate to their size"

"In most cases, Small or Medium creatures can wield a Large weapon, though it’s unwieldy, giving them the clumsy 1 condition, and the larger size is canceled by the difficulty of swinging the weapon, so it grants no special benefit."

in the instinct ability

"You gain access to one weapon one size larger than you, of any weapon type otherwise available at character creation. It has the normal Price and Bulk for a weapon of its size (page 295). When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from Rage from 2 to 6, but you have the clumsy 1 condition (page 618) because of the weapon’s unwieldy size."

RAW, a normal small creature wielding a medium weapon incurs no negatives. The Titan mauler suddenly does.

However, whether this counts as truly debuffing small creatures due to the admittedly cheaper cost and bulk of thd weapon, is up for debate.

Unfortunately the rules we're written a bit inconsistently.

I think the intent is if you wield weapons for a size category larger than you, you take a penalty. But its not written that way.

So you're right that a small creature weirdly could wield a medium weapon at no penalty.

But it seems like a Giant Instinct Barbarian that does so suddenly takes the penalty, or at least they have to if they want the damage bonus.

[Yako Zenko]

Claxon wrote:

Unfortunately the rules we're written a bit inconsistently.

I think the intent is if you wield weapons for a size category larger than you, you take a penalty. But its not written that way.

So you're right that a small creature weirdly could wield a medium weapon at no penalty.

But it seems like a Giant Instinct Barbarian that does so suddenly takes the penalty, or at least they have to if they want the damage bonus.

Sadly it's not even a "if they want the damage bonus" the next sentence of the titan mauler says "You can’t remove this clumsy condition or ignore its penalties by any means while wielding the weapon"

Fun that it specifies wielding the weapon. This means a two handed greatsword, when you let go with one hand, you suddenly stop being clumsy. But the moment you hold it like you should, you are clumsy again XD

[Yako Zenko]

So, I guess, at this point my question is answered. I am not misreading anything, it IS as written.

However, there is clearly different interpretations of what is written, as shown by the helpful, but opposing, views put forward by Claxon and Slamy... as such, I think this needs an official dev response on intent... is there a way to flag this for a faq?

[Kywedol]

It would make more sense if they split the paragraph eg.

You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium (both normally and when raging).

If you’re not Small or Medium, you can use a weapon built for a creature one size larger than you. You gain access to one weapon one size larger than you, of any weapon type otherwise available at character creation. It has the normal Price and Bulk for a weapon of its size (page 295). When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from Rage from 2 to 6, but you have the clumsy 1 condition (page 618) because of the weapon’s unwieldy size. You can’t remove this clumsy condition or ignore its penalties by any means while wielding the weapon.

Thus for most you could use a large weapon no penalty but if you’re already large you could use a “giant” weapon with penalty but more rage damage or if you’re tiny you could use a normal weapon with penalty and more rage damage.
This makes sense to me as there is a vast difference from tiny to small then from large to giant. (Looks back at old 3ed size charts)

[leonvios]

I have been trying to figure out if you can dual wield 2 large sawtooth sabers and get the bonus for both.

[Claxon]

leonvios wrote:

I have been trying to figure out if you can dual wield 2 large sawtooth sabers and get the bonus for both.

I don't see why you wouldn't, though barring abilities that make two weapon fighting any good (which the barbarian doesn't have) it wouldn't be useful.

If you take ranger or fighter dedication and some two weapon feats it could be alright, but you're not really gaining much.

[Javell DeLeon]

And this "large" weapon doesn't increase in damage, correct? Is it still the same damage as the "normal" weapon in the CRB?

I ask because if you look at the pregen of Amiri, her Large bastard sword damage is the exact same as listed in the CRB. Why is that? Which would tell me that it doesn't matter WHAT size the weapon is. It's still the same damage. Just doesn't make any sense. You'd figure it would at the very least increase by one step.

And if you do use the Giant/Titan stature feat, does the damage of the weapon still remain the same after growing large/huge?

[Arachnofiend]

The extra damage from using an oversized weapon is tied to Titan Mauler. Making it a static number independent of what weapon you're using increases flexibility on weapon choice quite a bit - if Giant Instinct increased your weapon dice then it would be completely useless to somebody using a d12 weapon, for example.

[Javell DeLeon]

Arachnofiend wrote:

The extra damage from using an oversized weapon is tied to Titan Mauler. Making it a static number independent of what weapon you're using increases flexibility on weapon choice quite a bit - if Giant Instinct increased your weapon dice then it would be completely useless to somebody using a d12 weapon, for example.

Yes! That's true. 1d12 would be the max. So basically the only reason to take Giant Instinct is for the 4 extra damage, correct?

So, thinking about it, it no longer matters what size you are, right? If the damage is the same for everyone, why is size even mentioned? It seems pointless. The only reason it would make a difference is if your weapon actually increased in damage per its size as it did in PF1 which it looks like it doesn't.

So with that, then what's the point of Giant/Titan stature? You grow in size and that's it? I know it says your equipment grows with you, so, does that mean your weapon will then increase in damage the way PF1 does as it did with Enlarge spell/righteous might/etc.,etc.?

[Deadmanwalking]

The weapons being oversized is very relevant thematically. It's also a relevant mechanical restriction in that it means you only get those bonuses when using your own or other very specific weapons. No picking up the Medium Vorpal Longsword the enemy just dropped and getting your Giant Instinct bonus.

And growing in size gives you Reach. That's great if you build for it.

[Squiggit]

Javell DeLeon wrote:

Thinking about it, it no longer matters what size you are, right? If the damage is the same for everyone, why is size even mentioned? It seems pointless.

It seems like a flavor thing. You wield an oversized weapon and do more damage is the whole aesthetic behind the instinct.

[Vlorax]

Javell DeLeon wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

The extra damage from using an oversized weapon is tied to Titan Mauler. Making it a static number independent of what weapon you're using increases flexibility on weapon choice quite a bit - if Giant Instinct increased your weapon dice then it would be completely useless to somebody using a d12 weapon, for example.

Yes! That's true. 1d12 would be the max. So basically the only reason to take Giant Instinct is for the 4 extra damage, correct?

So, thinking about it, it no longer matters what size you are, right? If the damage is the same for everyone, why is size even mentioned? It seems pointless. The only reason it would make a difference is if your weapon actually increased in damage per its size as it did in PF1 which it looks like it doesn't.

So with that, then what's the point of Giant/Titan stature? You grow in size and that's it? I know it says your equipment grows with you, so, does that mean your weapon will then increase in damage the way PF1 does as it did with Enlarge spell/righteous might/etc.,etc.?

Reach and the extra damage. You also block line of sight and provide cover for smaller PC's standing behind you.

[Javell DeLeon]

Well okay. Cool. Thanks for the responses, folks. I'd have to agree with all of you. What you folks said is spot on. In my opinion, though, comparing it to PF1 it's kind of paltry. Mainly because I'm a huge fan of the greatsword going from 1d12 to 2d8(or whatever it is) when you grow in size per PF1. I don't know, it just seems to make more sense to me I guess. *Shrugs* Or maybe it's just what I'm use to with PF1. Either/or. :P

BUT, having said that, I guess looking at it in the long run, though, later on in levels the damage does crawl up there fairly well so we'll see how it goes. And I get that Paizo's trying to tone down - at least it appears that way - massive amounts of damage but there's no way I can confirm that seeing how I'm still trying to learn this game and have just started to test it out.

And reach does tend to come in quite the handy that's true. It's amazing how annoying it is when you're a medium creature trying to get near a giant sized creature. :P

Awesome. Thanks again!