Advanced Player's Guide playtest announced for October!


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Huzzah for the kitties!! I'd suspected after seeing them in the first Bestiary, so this is very welcome.


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David knott 242 wrote:

Age shouldn't be a factor in retiring iconics after a mere decade of Pathfinder, so Quinn ought to be safe.

Alahazra's clothing issue can be taken care of by a new outfit (but if Seoni survived, why shouldn't Alahazra?). She could be in trouble if they redid the Oracle's Curse in a way that makes her clouded vision curse no longer work.

I think Jirelle might be the one who is on the chopping block for a very simple reason -- We actually don't have a clear picture of what she is supposed to look like, as her skin color varies drastically from one image to the next.

I wouldn't put any money on this but Alahazra may get the cut depending on how Rahadoum is depicted in the first World Guide. A more sympathetic description of their history that leans more into "the Goodest Good god's followers nearly destroyed our country in a massive war why would we see any merit in the divine" would IMO be more interesting for the overall narrative of the Inner Sea, but having our only Rahadoumi character be one that portrays the Laws of Man as Terrible and Irrational would make that difficult to sell.

I don't actually think this is going to happen, especially since Paizo seems intent on scrubbing away any questions of the moral purity of their Good gods (you will be missed, Cult of the Dawnflower). Still, it's possible.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

They also mentioned that they consider this an extension to the core rules. As in, they're going to kind of assume that most tables will be using CRB, GMG, and APG.

I believe Bestiary 2 is viewed that way as well. One of its goals is to fill the holes in the current Summon lists.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It will be difficult to maintain hype for a year, but I think I can do it.

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm already buying my ticket. The hype train is leaving the station.

Dataphiles

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Rysky wrote:
Also in addition to getting new art for the Iconics one is getting replaced, which I don't know how to feel about since those 4 are some of my favourites.

I have two predictions for that. One is fun and the other is practical for some of the stuff they're wanting to expand lore on.

A Catfolk Swashbuckler would be kinda awesome. A wonderful nod to Puss in Boots.

A Lizardfolk Oracle would make sense as something they'd change. Erik Mona mentioned in the presentation that Iruxi are deep into astrology and studying the stars to find meaning. An Iruxi Oracle of the Heavens would fit perfectly in with that and give them an 'in' for pursuing more Lizardfolk lore.


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Chetna Wavari wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Also in addition to getting new art for the Iconics one is getting replaced, which I don't know how to feel about since those 4 are some of my favourites.

I have two predictions for that. One is fun and the other is practical for some of the stuff they're wanting to expand lore on.

A Catfolk Swashbuckler would be kinda awesome. A wonderful nod to Puss in Boots.

A Lizardfolk Oracle would make sense as something they'd change. Erik Mona mentioned in the presentation that Iruxi are deep into astrology and studying the stars to find meaning. An Iruxi Oracle of the Heavens would fit perfectly in with that and give them an 'in' for pursuing more Lizardfolk lore.

Okay, i was hoping for Kobold after someone mentioned it, but now i want that Catfolk Swashbuckler.


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Not at all happy with the Swashbuckler and Investigator. These were defiantly 2 of the most OP classes they had. In 1st edition I didn’t allow them in any of my companions.

The investigator made the rest of the party look incredibly dumb in Society play especially with the Mind Chemist archetype. I never allowed any of the hybrid classes be able to multi class with their parent classes.

I am looking forward to the archetypes and new ancestries. I really want a Dhampir. I finally got 1 in 1st edition and have very little to play. Even with replays.

Silver Crusade

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Micheal Smith wrote:
Not at all happy with the Swashbuckler and Investigator. These were defiantly 2 of the most OP classes they had. In 1st edition I didn’t allow them in any of my companions.

wut


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The Investigator was a pretty great class and stacked up well with other gold standard classes like the Inquisitor

The Swashbuckler... Was bad. Really, really bad. So bad that it was completely outclassed at its own job by a Cavalier archetype that came out in the same book.


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Yeah, 1e swashbucklers bordered on unplayable. "I'm a frontline combatant ... with crappy AC and poor Will and Fort saves." And a bottleneck for swift actions.

I was super-excited about that class when it was announced and unutterably disappointed when it came out.

Hoping for something different this time around.


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All the swashbucklers we played with wrecked the table. I crit, I parry but didn’t have to crit to parry the attack. Now anything that couldn’t be hit with precision was a problem but being able get that was decent in damage. Having only needed Dex and Charisma, charmed life was popwerful. Getting the panache points back wasn’t do difficult. Crappy AC? The 3 I saw had great AC, decent Fort. Charmed life made up. They did great damage I parry this and this and this. I crit I killed the creature, regain panache etc.

Def do not see what you all see.

We had investigators that would out pace other class when it came to skills. They made figuring things out almost with out having to roll. We had several that could roll 1’s on the d20 and the d6 and still have close if not higher then some of the other skilled classes.


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Actually this is the first time I am hearing its a weak class. Most people I play with say its too strong.


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Micheal Smith wrote:
Actually this is the first time I am hearing its a weak class. Most people I play with say its too strong.

Have to say this is a first time hearing they are too strong.

Silver Crusade

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Pretty sure those people are doing something they’re not supposed to then, or there’s heavy house rules involved.

I’ve seen them used as 1 level dips cause of how front loaded they are, but mechanics wise I've never heard of anything good about them. Fun and flavorful for sure, especially with later archetypes. But powerful? This is a first.

Dataphiles

Micheal Smith wrote:
Actually this is the first time I am hearing its a weak class. Most people I play with say its too strong.

It all depends on the strength of the rest of your table. If your table is generally unoptimized then it might have seemed strong, but it wasn't. It had a lot of holes.


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Semi-transcribed the part about the Advanced Player's Guide from the panel:
Planetouched are indeed heritages and should be applicable to all/most other ancestries.
Archetypes will be available to almost all classes, only a few that are special.
Archetypes: pirate, acrobat, duelist, beast master, gladiator, poisoner, assassin, bounty hunter, scout.
APG will also have backgrounds (Jason).
The investigator might have gotten "bumped" a bit as it fits so well with the Absalom AP coming out at the same time.
All the classes will not only fill a conceptual niche, but a mechanical one too.
The sorcerer touches on some of the mechanical stuff of the PF1 Oracle, so they're looking at how to make the PF2 Oracle unique.
Oracle will still have curses, but might go more back to its pan-theistic roots. Will have lots of Divine and probably some Occult elements to it.
With the Swashbuckler they're aiming for it to be the ultimate mobility warrior, you will be mobile in ways that other characters can only drool over. (I misremembered that it was actually Jason talking about the class). Mona mentions that he thinks the 3 action economy is especially interesting for martial characters and how they can marry that with the abilities we already know from the PF1 Swashbuckler.
The Investigator will be the skill heavy class that will be able to solve a lot of your problems through skill use.
The Witch will let them revisit familiars and, of course, hexes.


David knott 242 wrote:
I think Jirelle might be the one who is on the chopping block for a very simple reason -- We actually don't have a clear picture of what she is supposed to look like, as her skin color varies drastically from one image to the next.

Adopted Ancestry: Chameleon Gnome confirmed...

-------------------------------

From what Paizo has earlier said re: Archetypes, and the inclusion of Duelist Archetype, I sort of assume Swashbuckler won't really give much Duelist type or Weapon-specific abilities, or at least that won't be baked in and won't be sole focus of abilities... Some sort of synergy with Weapon-specific Archetypes is potentially possible, of course, but more a core focusing on Panache/Grit/Luck non-magical self buffing and probably a skill-sy social angle... but that now works equally well with other weapons or combat styles. Doesn't look like any Guns or Gunslingers for now, but if Swashbuckler isn't weapon-specific, I kind of expect Guns will just be Weapon Archetype and Gunslinger characters will just use Swashbuckler maye with a few Class Feats that synergize with the Gun Archetype.

I was hoping they would do something with the non-Mount specific elements of Cavalier, like Order and Challenge, Banner, Teamwork Tactics, and general social-skillsy angle. Combining with "Marshal" type abilities (mundane combat support) seems like decent basis for class, I was even considering if it could be merged with Swashbuckler, with more "Selfish" vs "Helpful" angles being Sub-Classes like Doctrines, since alot of content seems like it would over-lap. Hmmm...

In terms of the Races, they all seem pretty solid, although my first reaction is Duskwalker and Dhampir feel too similar, and I'd personally prefer Fetchlings for Shadowplane action. I do understand Duskwalker/Dhampir are pretty different though, with Duskwalker if anything more like Neutral Pharasmin version of Samsarans... And I appreciate this ties in with Whispering Tyrant etc, so it makes sense, I just like Fetchlings still :-)

Curious what they do with the original, undiluted, undefeated... O-R-C-s...
Everybody expects more STR, and that's reasonable, but obviously conflicts with balance all the more in "tight math" era. One approach I thought of, since CON bonus is also reasonably associated with them, is using a custom approach to character creation: At normal Ancestry stage of character creation they get +2 STR and +2 CON along with -2 INT and maybe -2 DEX (let's say). That is worse than normal, but will be compensated later. When choosing their class, they boost it's key Stat like everybody else, but they ALSO boost their choice of STR or CON... but can't apply it to same stat boosted by Class. So they can't get higher peak bonus in STR (or CON) than anybody else (with STR or CON boosting Class) but they can still get net +4 to one of STR or CON, which balances the additional penalty. Thoughts?


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GentleGiant wrote:
APG will also have backgrounds (Jason).

I am very curious to see what bonuses the (Jason) background will give.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:
APG will also have backgrounds (Jason).
I am very curious to see what bonuses the (Jason) background will give.

It gives you the Control Matrix skill at Master level.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hm... Very interesting to see Magus and Inquisitor not on that list.

Paizo has set themselves up with an effective "time limit" on those two classes - namely, Kingmaker is promised to include rules for two companions that were originally a Magus and an Inquisitor.

So by the time Kingmaker comes out late next year, Paizo needs to have decided how they are going to mechanically represent that. Since it seems highly unlikely that they'd release another book with new classes before then...

Combined with Magic Warrior being confirmed as a class-agnostic archetype, it's looking very much like Magus and Inquisitor will not be coming back as base classes.

The alternative is that those two companions will need to have "jury-rigged" builds, and then when Magus and Inquisitor do come out theoretically Paizo would release a guide for rebuilding them, but that seems awkward overall.

Anyway, that all aside, super hype for this announcement!


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Magus is really, really easy to do without making an entire class. I still maintain that half the reason multi-classing was overhauled was to make it so they don't need to do another Magus. The aesthetic niche that Magi filled with spell strike/spell combat is already satisfied with the Bespell Weapon feat.

Inquisitors are quite a bit trickier, though a Champion/Ranger multiclass would be "close enough to count". This is one that could go either way on whether or not they become their own class.


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They are built correctly and for society. You can give them High AC. Dex and light armor with mithral. Then you can easy get Dex to damage with Dex to hit. So you are hitting pretty good and doing the same damage as most STR based builds with exception of 2 handed builds. Parry an reposte is pretty potent on its own. Making that pretty reliable isn’t too difficult. All society legal. So then you can make them more potent with the things not allowed in Society.

Being able to parry a creature that hit a critical and not having to roll a critical is pretty powerful. Acrobatics is super high again because of DEX.

Our table was pretty optimized. Maybe the lack of building a GOOD swashbuckler is the problem.

With an Inspired Blade 9th level
+21/+16 1d6+13+9 precision (spend 1 panache to boost to 18). We can through Power Attack for even more damage,
With Answering you now have +25 to parry. Base 25 AC (Armor, Dex, dodge, natural) Easily boost that more. Competes just fine with most 1 handed STR based builds. This character could run a lot of the table with optimized team, just chooses not to play at full power (still is pretty powerful in society)


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The build referenced is not optimized, and is still powerful. We can add so much more. Swashbuckler is not a weak class.


I see Inquisitors working fine as Warpriest Cleric or Champion MC with Fighter, Ranger, or even upcoming Swashbuckler or Investigator, depending on focus. Magus IMHO is posterchild for "no longer needs Hybrid Class", although there certainly seems room for "Magus" Archetypes without setting specificity of Jatembe Magic Warrior, not to mention other setting specific Gish Archetypes.

------------------

On the general Archetypes they did list, Assassin and Poisoner seem VEEEERY conceptualy close. As in, I don't understand why they need be 2 distinct archetypes. OK, some Feats can be more Poison-y and some Feats can be Poison-free, but why not just put them in one Assassin Archetype, even it's twice as big as 'normal'? Hell, give a choice in the opening Feat between Poison and non-Poison ability, so nobody gets disappointed with 1st Feat. Another Feat can allow choosing the alternate ability later. ...Convince me I'm wrong.

*60 archetypes* is a metric s++&-load though... Definitely will (re)define the game to get that modularity independent of Class. It sounds like there is a few class-specific archetypes within those, although IMHO the base ability-swap Archetype seems more relevant to specific Classes in the long run (no sign they plan to include those in APG though, AFAIK).


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Joana wrote:
They specifically said Feiya was safe, so that leave Quinn, Lirianne, and Alahazra and her huge hat.
GentleGiant wrote:
My best guess at the iconic that'll be changed, it's probably Jirelle, the Swashbuckler

Considering I got her mixed up with the iconic Gunslinger, I'd have to concur that the iconic Swashbuckler needs to be more distinctive. :P


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Not surprised by investigator. It gives them another class to at least have base access to the new alchemical items system they made, though not to the same level that alchemists do


GentleGiant wrote:
He said something to the tune of it being the most mobile and agile class, being able to do things all the other classes would be envious of.

Sounds like the monk IMO. ;)

Micheal Smith wrote:
Swashbuckler is not a weak class.

IMO, it's one of the weakest PF1 classes: Inspired Blade 1 level dip was about the only time I EVER saw someone play one.


Chetna Wavari wrote:
It all depends on the strength of the rest of your table. If your table is generally unoptimized then it might have seemed strong, but it wasn't. It had a lot of holes.

Speaking from my personal experience playing one, it was holding up well. The AC I got my Swashbuckler to brought no end of frustration to the DM struggling to hit me (especially with Dodging Panache as an option for my very Charismatic Swashbuckler), the Intimidation options were quite nice when focused on decently, and I was also quite stealthy, which never hurts. The 15-20 Crit range with the Rapier only made me that more annoying to the poor DM, who couldn't hit me while I was doing decent enough damage and regaining Panache with my Crits.

But yeah, can't wait for the new Classes and Ancestries. More options are always good in my book.


graystone wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:
He said something to the tune of it being the most mobile and agile class, being able to do things all the other classes would be envious of.
Sounds like the monk IMO. ;)

Seriously, this is like the Spiderman pointing at Spiderman meme. "I am the Ultimate Mobility Class!"

Probably shouldn't read too much into that random statement, but suffice it to say Swashbuckler has alot of other themes to rely on.
Sure, above average mobility can be one, and even fantastic mobility tricks, but I don't think beating Monk is the goal.
"Impossible" combat tricks, and CHA tied Panache/Grit/Luck, along with social aspect seems as/more important.

Really, I was imagining roping in non-Mount specific parts of Cavalier and "Marshal" to go for
general CHA-focused dynamic tricks-y combatant with either self-buff/tricks or group tactics (sub-paths?),
with all of that open to choices via sub-paths and feats to create custom vision of CHA-focused mundane skills-y combatant.
I guess Swashbuckler doesn't need to include those, and they could be distinct "Marshal" class, although
I expect whenever the do guns, a "Gunslinger" will just be Swashbuckler with maybe a sub-path or synergistic Class Feat or 2 or 3.
(TBH a "Marshal" class that alters allies' action economy probably should come later after more mechanics established)


Hopefully, I've misunderstood this.

An Advanced Player's Guide will not be a core book; since it's not core, some won't allow it's material into a game.

Please tell me I'm wrong. I really like the Witch class.

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

APG in PF1 was so core...that some people even forget that it was a different book. APG introduced new classes, races, traits, archetypes etc...

I expect APG in PF2 to basically do the same with 60+ archetypes and coming with the favorite ancestries (Aasimar, Tieflings are by far the most popular races in the game).


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Surprised at the class picks.

Not that they're bad or Paizo can't make them interesting, but they're easily some of the most redundant options when it comes to PF2 core's design space. I was hoping they might be a little more adventurous with their choices and give us ways to build things that PF2 can't make right now, rather than new ways to build the same things people are already playing.

scary harpy wrote:

Hopefully, I've misunderstood this.

An Advanced Player's Guide will not be a core book; since it's not core, some won't allow it's material into a game.

Please tell me I'm wrong. I really like the Witch class.

There's literally nothing Paizo can say or do to make some random GM who wants to ban witches not ban witches.


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scary harpy wrote:

Hopefully, I've misunderstood this.

An Advanced Player's Guide will not be a core book; since it's not core, some won't allow it's material into a game.

Please tell me I'm wrong. I really like the Witch class.

If your home GM makes that decision, he is being silly. I would try to talk him out of that if you could.

But the definition of core from Paizo's point of view is that they would use material from core sources only (or the current book, if applicable) to build NPCs and the like in other material that they published. And I thought Jason said that the Advanced Player's Guide would count as core for that purpose.


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Eltacolibre wrote:
We all know that Paizo will keep the same pace that they had with PF1, so we will get new materials every month anyway.

Pretty sure they've confirmed a slower pace with the cancellation if the player companions and the quarterlyish release for campaign guides.

They might be able to match the same pages per year output, but I doubt even that. As I recall, it's definitely a more leisurely pace though.


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I wonder if each of the new classes will come with a multi class archetype like the Core classes did.

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Steve Geddes wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
We all know that Paizo will keep the same pace that they had with PF1, so we will get new materials every month anyway.

Pretty sure they've confirmed a slower pace with the cancellation if the player companions and the quarterlyish release for campaign guides.

They might be able to match the same pages per year output, but I doubt even that. As I recall, it's definitely a more leisurely pace though.

Ah didn't know those got canceled...

Gisher: with 60 archetypes, I would be very surprised if we don't get Multiclass archetypes from the new classes.


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They will be releasing new content every 3 or 4 months a lot like Starfinder. I talked to someone on the phone and that is what she told me. Either the core Rulebook subscription or the Lost omen subscription


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Gisher wrote:
I wonder if each of the new classes will come with a multi class archetype like the Core classes did.

At one of the panels at Gen Con, they mentioned that every class will have a corresponding multiclass dedication and associated feats.


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GentleGiant wrote:

July - Advanced Player's Guide

- Investigator, Oracle, Swashbuckler, Witch (October playtest)
- 8 new ancestry - Aasimar, Catfolk, Changeling, Duskwalker, Dhampir, Kobold, Orc. Ratfolk, Tiefling, Tengu
- New spells, archetypes (60) and other fun stuff
(pirate, acrobat, duelist, beast master, bounty hunter, poisoner, scout, assassin)

I really wish that all these options, especially ancestries will be PFS legal. For PF1 only a few races are legal, some need boon and other are not at all. And having to always check AoN to see whether a feat, archetype, or whatnot is legal or not is a huge pain...


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I guess we will have a clue after the Lost Omens World Guide comes out next month and we see whether hobgoblins, leshies, and lizardfolk are restricted in any way.

If we are lucky, the only restriction will be "must own Lost Omens World Guide" to play one of these races.


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Swashbucklers do exactly two things exceedingly well in PF1- they deal damage in melee combat and they avoid damage in melee combat. As for what they do poorly, I would present "everything else." Like sure, you have more charisma than a fighter so nominally you could do social stuff, but your class gives you nothing that makes you any better at it than the sorcerer or the oracle.

Without easy access to pounce, it's probably the weakest non-rogue martial in PF1. I can't see any PF1 class being more "OP" than the core wizard was, though.

graystone wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:
He said something to the tune of it being the most mobile and agile class, being able to do things all the other classes would be envious of.
Sounds like the monk IMO. ;)

Swashmonks and Monkbucklers might be fun.

David knott 242 wrote:

I guess we will have a clue after the Lost Omens World Guide comes out next month and we see whether hobgoblins, leshies, and lizardfolk are restricted in any way.

If we are lucky, the only restriction will be "must own Lost Omens World Guide" to play one of these races.

I suspect we might put rarities on ancestries/classes/backgrounds/other level 1 things just to represent in the world stuff like "Changelings are not common". Shouldn't keep anyone from playing that stuff, it just puts it in an "ask the GM" territory.


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PFS studiously avoids putting anything in "ask the GM" territory, for obvious reasons.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Swashbucklers do exactly two things exceedingly well in PF1- they deal damage in melee combat and they avoid damage in melee combat. As for what they do poorly, I would present "everything else." Like sure, you have more charisma than a fighter so nominally you could do social stuff, but your class gives you nothing that makes you any better at it than the sorcerer or the oracle.

Swashbucklers have far less reason to invest in charisma than a Fighter who has decided that she wants to be charismatic, actually. Fighters can stack Improved Bravery and Steadfast Personality on top of each other for a genuinely formidable will save (Swashbucklers can't use Steadfast Personality because it conflicts with Charmed Life) and Fighters can also take advantage of Cornugon Smash+Hurtful (Swashbucklers can't do this because their swift action is too fully occupied).

Swashbucklers, on the other hand, use charisma only for the size of their panache pool (can be shored up with feat expenditure) and the strength of charmed life (which has limited uses and must be committed to prior to your roll, which gives the Paladin a real hearty chuckle).

I don't mean to correct your point since obviously I agree with it, but I think it really hammers home how bad Swashbucklers are that Fighters are better with high charisma than them.


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My #1 request for this book is:

Please give Champions a class archetype that gives them the same relationship with the source of their power that an Oracle has.

One can still hold Champions to the tenets of good, but you wouldn't need to be devoted to a specific deity, since the Champion might not have a clue who granted their powers, just an understanding of the price. Since we're going to have an oracle in the book, so there's no reason not to do this, right?

Like "great power = great responsibility" works for Spider-Man without making him indebted to radioactive spiders.


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That description of the flaws of the PF1 swashbuckler suggests a lot of reasons for Paizo to revisit that class and make it better in PF2.


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Witch and Oracle was to be expected. Investigator was 50/50 from the threads; but Swashbuckler was purely a dark horse that kinda came out of nowhere. At this point i see no reason Magus will be anything less than the dark horse no one was expecting. With two of the most recommended casters up to the plate it makes sense that they wouldn’t add a third.

I’m actually surprised i got so close with where they would put Swashbuckler in terms of combat role. Now if they just add some condition inflicting abilities maybe i can predict the next big loto numbers. :p

As for Bespell Weapon; it’s nice but i really think people are putting too much stock into it.


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I'm so excited!!!!!


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Hey I'm pretty iconic! *grumble*

Paizo Employee Franchise Manager

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Joana wrote:
Rysky wrote:
It'd probably be Freiya if I have to guess, but then I'm not happy since design wise I love her, but then I love all of them.
They specifically said Feiya was safe, so that leave Quinn, Lirianne, and Alahazra and her huge hat.

What would you say if I told you that we've already illustrated the new iconic and you've all seen them? And no, we're not updating an existing NPC to iconic status.

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