Challenge points and level bump


Pathfinder Society

4/5 5/5

So, was just checking the challenge point adjustments, especially the level bump mechanic.

It says, "Increase the Hit Point totals of all enemy creatures by 10 or by 10%, whichever is higher." which make sense for tough single monsters,or at later tiers, but imagine an encounter of say 5 goblins at 6 points each, they would then all have 16 hp, an increase of 167% in HP. Seems to me that it would turn a relatively short fight for 5 level 2 players into a rather long fight. Is this WAD or was this an oversight

4/5 *

The difference between 6hp and 16hp is much less than it used to be, given the increased damage most PCs can dish out even at level 1. In my first game, 1st-level PCs were doing 25+ damage in a round, or 10-15 in area of effect.

A 16hp goblin just won't die when even the wizard hits it with a pointed stick, whereas a 6hp goblin just might. So I think it's ok.

2/5 *

Im a bit confused on calculating challenge points. Its easy if the PCs vary in level. But what if everyone is the same level (say level 3 in a 1-4) or even if half the PCs are level 3 and half are level 2? How would you calculate challenge points in either of these cases according to the chart in the society guide?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

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nick gray 117 wrote:
Im a bit confused on calculating challenge points. Its easy if the PCs vary in level. But what if everyone is the same level (say level 3 in a 1-4) or even if half the PCs are level 3 and half are level 2? How would you calculate challenge points in either of these cases according to the chart in the society guide?

For a tier 1-4 game:

Level 1 PCs would count as 2 challenge points each
Level 2s would be 3 challenge points
Level 3s would be 4 each
Level 4s would be 6 each

So if you had four level 3 PCs, that would be 16 (4x4) challenge points. A party of six level 3 PCs would be 24 (6x4) challenge points for the table.

If you had two level 3s and two level 2s, you would get 8 (2x4) challenge points from the level 3s and 6 (2x3) challenge points from the level 2s, for a total of 14 challenge points. A party with three 3s and three 2s would be 12 (3x4) challenge points from the level 3s and 9 (3x3) challenge points from the level 2s, for a total of 21 challenge points for the table.

I hope that helps?

2/5 *

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That actually does help alot. Thank you

The Exchange 1/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:

The difference between 6hp and 16hp is much less than it used to be, given the increased damage most PCs can dish out even at level 1. In my first game, 1st-level PCs were doing 25+ damage in a round, or 10-15 in area of effect.

A 16hp goblin just won't die when even the wizard hits it with a pointed stick, whereas a 6hp goblin just might. So I think it's ok.

Have to say that is one freakin' powerful set of 1st level PCs to do an average of 25+ a round after accounting for misses.

Reality check - The scenario addition of 10 hp each to a group of 5-7 monsters can make it extremely difficult depending upon what needs to be done. A creature that might go down with an average hit now takes 3 average hits or so. In turn (so to speak), they will have a couple extra rounds to TPK the party. These monsters will have much better hit points than the party, the same or better to hit, the same or better damage

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

It's really not that hard. To take a rather obvious build, a fighter with Power Attack, a glaive, and strength 18.

On a regular hit, he does 2d8+4, for an average of 13. Not shabby. But if he crits (and with a +9 to hit as a fighter, he's going to crit now and then), it's actually 5d8+8 (because of the Deadly). That's an average of (5*4.5)*(2*8)=30.5 damage.

Or the sorcerer casts Magic Weapon on his glaive, adding +1 to hit and +1d8; that makes for 3d8+4 ~= 17.5 on a regular hit, and 39.5 on a crit.

Inspire Courage is a pretty popular buff nowadays, adds another +1 to hit and +1 damage. All these to hit bonuses are making crits more likely, too.

A goblin that's been bumped up from level -1 has an AC of 17, so without any help the fighter needs to roll an 8 to hit and an 18 to crit. But if the goblin is flanked and the fighter is buffed, he only needs a 14 to crit, so about a third of the time.

I'll admit, it's not constantly at those peak levels; but it's also frequent enough that you're going to notice.

The Exchange 1/5

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

It's really not that hard. To take a rather obvious build, a fighter with Power Attack, a glaive, and strength 18.

On a regular hit, he does 2d8+4, for an average of 13. Not shabby. But if he crits (and with a +9 to hit as a fighter, he's going to crit now and then), it's actually 5d8+8 (because of the Deadly). That's an average of (5*4.5)*(2*8)=30.5 damage.

Or the sorcerer casts Magic Weapon on his glaive, adding +1 to hit and +1d8; that makes for 3d8+4 ~= 17.5 on a regular hit, and 39.5 on a crit.

Inspire Courage is a pretty popular buff nowadays, adds another +1 to hit and +1 damage. All these to hit bonuses are making crits more likely, too.

A goblin that's been bumped up from level -1 has an AC of 17, so without any help the fighter needs to roll an 8 to hit and an 18 to crit. But if the goblin is flanked and the fighter is buffed, he only needs a 14 to crit, so about a third of the time.

I'll admit, it's not constantly at those peak levels; but it's also frequent enough that you're going to notice.

So after taking into account the 60% hit chance for the fighter (thus average of about 7 excluding 15% crit) and the 50% hit/save of others of the others, the party is still doing 25+ damage around and 10-15 AoE. That is one powerful party

Grand Archive 4/5 5/55/5 *

While you are correct that they are a powerful party, it isn't that hard to achieve. It is merely utilizing a knowledge of the mechanics of the game. It isn't even an overly complex setup.

On a single hit, without the magic weapon buff, he's rocking 13 damage. That does not even account for the rest of the party doing damage either. At level 2, 25+ damage for the whole party over the whole round seems pretty accurate.

The Exchange 1/5

Level 1 PCs rocking 25+ and 10-15 AoE. Not level 2. *edit

The freakin' powerful party was an aside comment (since most party's would probably not be rocking 2 PA fighters and 2 combat mages).

The point was that the using the modification of +10hp per goblin can be quite dangerous. It turns a minor encounter which might last 2-3 rounds at most into a climactic battle that could easily last 10+ rounds. At 6 hp, the average goblin would die to AoE and fighters would kill 1 each round. At 16 hp, the fighters would need to take 3 rounds on average to kill 1 goblin (accounting for misses) even assuming that the burning hands can be used in later rounds.

4/5 ****

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I apologize for the digression but I find the 2e math quite fascinating/

Gonna live in a theoretical vacuum for the purposes of this amusing math. No allies, no flanking no AoOs etc)

+9 Glaive (1d8+4, Deadly d8, Forceful) vs AC 17

As a note for the above option you have a higher expected damage value by attacking twice instead of using power attack. (11.075 vs 11.975).
(On a related note Forceful in this case provides an expected 0.46 damage

What I find a more interesting comparison is % to kill said foe given Z HP.

For the power attacking option...

PA Kill % (Long):

6 : 65.00%
7 : 64.22%
8 : 62.66%
9 : 60.32%
10 : 57.19%
11 : 53.28%
12 : 48.60%
13 : 43.13%
14 : 36.85%
15 : 31.35%
16 : 26.57%
17 : 22.58%
18 : 19.28%
19 : 16.76%
20 : 14.90%
21 : 13.83%
22 : 13.42%
23 : 13.01%
24 : 12.48%
25 : 11.95%
26 : 11.31%
27 : 10.66%
28 : 9.90%
29 : 9.14%
30 : 8.32%
31 : 7.50%
32 : 6.68%
33 : 5.86%
34 : 5.10%
35 : 4.34%
36 : 3.69%
37 : 3.05%
38 : 2.52%
39 : 1.99%
40 : 1.58%
41 : 1.17%
42 : 0.88%
43 : 0.59%
44 : 0.41%
45 : 0.23%
46 : 0.15%
47 : 0.06%
48 : 0.03%
49 : 0.00%
50 : 0.00%

The 2 attack option is a little more complicated, we have to figure out the % of each of the 9 combinations of hit, miss and crit. Order matters due to forceful as well.

2 Attack % (Long):

6 : 75.25%
7 : 69.97%
8 : 64.69%
9 : 59.41%
10 : 54.13%
11 : 48.84%
12 : 43.15%
13 : 37.18%
14 : 34.52%
15 : 33.12%
16 : 31.27%
17 : 29.16%
18 : 26.59%
19 : 23.73%
20 : 21.09%
21 : 18.70%
22 : 16.54%
23 : 14.61%
24 : 12.89%
25 : 11.39%
26 : 10.11%
27 : 9.06%
28 : 8.11%
29 : 7.13%
30 : 6.30%
31 : 5.46%
32 : 4.77%
33 : 4.08%
34 : 3.56%
35 : 3.06%
36 : 2.61%
37 : 2.19%
38 : 1.80%
39 : 1.46%
40 : 1.17%
41 : 0.93%
42 : 0.75%
43 : 0.61%
44 : 0.50%
45 : 0.42%
46 : 0.36%
47 : 0.32%
48 : 0.28%
49 : 0.24%
50 : 0.21%

Interestingly enough

The 2 attack % to kill is better against 1hp - 8hp
PA takes the lead for 9hp - 14hp
From 15hp - 24hp 2 Attacks gives you better odds
From 25hp - 42hp PA once again takes the lead
43hp - 66hp 2 Attacks takes the lead with Power Attack capping out at 48 damage.

66hp+ neither option can kill in 1 round.

See Spreadsheet for the maths. % chances on dice courtesy of anydice.com

PF2 Math is extremely complicated (And I love it). Generic Glaive Gary has a 75.25% chance of slaying the 6hp AC 17 goblin (Drops to 65% if he uses power attack)

If it has 16hp (still 17AC) He has a 31.27% chance of killing it (Drops to 26.57%) if he uses power attack.

If we also remember to drop the 6hp goblin to 16 AC, the chance of killing rises to 84.72% (70% w/PA)

tl;DR Generic Glaive Gary drops the normal goblin in 1 round 84.72% of the time, and the level bumped goblin only 31.27% of the time.

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