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Bombs do solid damage, often even on a miss, and do varying debuff or condition infliction stuff so they make fine offensive characters that way, and Bestial Mutagen gives another valid route to being an offensive character via tearing people's faces off. They're pretty good backup healers. And Mutagens are actually by far the best Skill (and thus a lot of utility) Item in the game. Various other Alchemical things are pretty useful sometimes as well.
So I'd say they're solid on offense and utility/single target buffing (via mutagens and other elixirs), and decent healers.
That's not hugely different from their PF1 role, IMO, though their tool kit is a tad smaller at present (something that's likely to change as more alchemical items are published).
Bomber is amazing in applying conditions and trigger elemental weakness being capable to easily inflict persistent damage of these elements. See that Ancient White Dragon? It's on fire now and taking extra 15 damage at the end of each of their turns.
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I wouldn't say bombs are good damage for a limited daily resource.
They now do comparable dices of damage as a weapon of their level for most levels, you need to actually spend a feat to add your stat on them, and the "minimum damage/aoe" is nothing to write home about, usually being, for a specialised bomber like 4-8 damage.
Being able to target weaknesses and do damage on a miss are huge advantages that increase effective damage quite a bit.
And this compares a limited resource that requires heavy feat investment (min 3 class feats, usually 5+) vs a normal at will strike with 0 feats calculated.
Uh...bombs require two Feats to be really good at (Quick Bomber and Calculated Splash) and are better than alternative options of the same level due to the aforementioned debuffs/persistent damage and splash damage.
In order to put said debuffs you need to lower the damage.
I was talking the base bomb effects, actually, not the Feats (Bottled Lightning in particular is just vicious). And even with the Feats you actually only need to lower damage sometimes (they require you to do lower level items than your level...at many levels, your highest level bomb is still a few levels below your actual level).
And your "cantrips" have no reason to be 6 levels behind other cantrips... Bad damage and less accuracy, basically relegates them to be "I try to make this target Flat-footed"
They aren't. For one thing, they're one action rather than two for most bombers, something most cantrip users can only dream of, and you can get the accuracy up over par with Quicksilver Mutagen really easily.
As for buffs, the penalties for the skill bonuses are equally massive.
Sure, but you can decide when to use them and, if you're a Mutagenist, arrange to end them whenever you like. Being able to decide 'oh, we're going to a party let's buff all my Cha stuff' is a great option.
Not sure, but from trying to build both a bomber and a healer they seem really subpar in their respective roles.
I think you're really underestimating what a bomber can accomplish. I'm less convinced on healer myself, as my previous post notes. You've definitely got some healing stuff, but I dunno if it's enough to sustain you as a primary role at the moment.
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Pretty sure "cantrips" is referring to the bombs from Perpetual Infusions, which do take two actions to use (one to create with Quick Alchemy, one to throw)
Not quite, though I suppose it's not one action either (my bad). From 9th level on (and you only get Perpetual Infusion at 7th) you can make two as one action, then throw them as one action each.
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Actually, re-reading Perpetual Infusion, you don't need Double Brew to have the effect I list. To quote Perpetual Infusion:
"You gain the ability to create two 1st-level alchemical items using Quick Alchemy without spending a batch of infused reagents."
So you're technically correct, but I'm functionally correct.
Yeah, I tried really hard to like the alchemist... It's a tough sell before bulk knocked it over and started kicking it in the side... :P
Bulk is a serious annoyance and a real problem. I think the rest of the Class works pretty well, though.
For me, they end up being forced to use weapons and don't really feel like the old alchemist at all but more a PF1 warrior with some alchemy gear.
Bomber: based on limited numbers of bombs, until 7th level you're looking at having a lot of rounds without a bomb to use especially if you're holding them for vulnerabilities and the monsters you're fighting don't have them.
Chirugeon: pretty much have to use weapons throughout all their level as Perpetuals not only suck but have no combat use.
Mutagenist: at least get to use built in weapons from mutagens and seem the most like an actual alchemist IMO.
So from 1-6, they lack any 'cantrip' like abilities and for myself, I'm going to be seeing a LOT more 1-6 play than 7+... Hence the tough sell. I think, for me, a fighter or wizard with an alchemist multiclass works out better than an actual alchemist since I'm much more useful on the non-alchemy item using rounds.
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Bulk is a serious annoyance and a real problem. I think the rest of the Class works pretty well, though.For me, they end up being forced to use weapons and don't really feel like the old alchemist at all but more a PF1 warrior with some alchemy gear.
Bomber: based on limited numbers of bombs, until 7th level you're looking at having a lot of rounds without a bomb to use especially if you're holding them for vulnerabilities and the monsters you're fighting don't have them.
Chirugeon: pretty much have to use weapons throughout all their level as Perpetuals not only suck but have no combat use.
Mutagenist: at least get to use built in weapons from mutagens and seem the most like an actual alchemist IMO.So from 1-6, they lack any 'cantrip' like abilities and for myself, I'm going to be seeing a LOT more 1-6 play than 7+... Hence the tough sell. I think, for me, a fighter or wizard with an alchemist multiclass works out better than an actual alchemist since I'm much more useful on the non-alchemy item using rounds.
alternatively an alchemist with wizard dedication for a couple attack cantrips?
alternatively an alchemist with wizard dedication for a couple attack cantrips?
Not really very attractive. starting as a wizard gets you 3 more cantrips, 1st level spells, the ability to recast spells, Spell Substitution or a super familiar [Extra Reagents, Familiar Focus and Cantrip Connection for +1 reagent, +1 cantrip and regain 1 focus], school [force bolt or drain bonded item 1/level].
Alchemist first instead gets me a + int reagents, a Research Field and quick alchemy, +1 skill, +2 hp/level and 1 better save [and light armor]...
IMO, it's pretty clear which I should have as a base.
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The Pathfinder 2 Alchemist is a support class now. Poisons can be applied in advance, making them a nice damage boost to anyone using a slashing/piercing weapon. Bombs give flat footed condition, and it's in my opinion their main feature. Elixirs of life are excellent because everyone can use them. They are less powerful than heal spell, but they are so much easier to use (very good candidates for the weak third action). And the mutagens give very nice bonuses.
The issue with the alchemist is that it's a passive class. Most of what you do is filling your companion's inventories with elixirs, mutagens, poisons and even bombs (they can use them as much as you do, sometimes even better).
So, you need to find something to do when it's your turn. You have a lot of choices, but you won't shine next to your companions. That's the case for all support classes.
The PF1 alchemist is dead. Long live the PF2 alchemist!
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It's very rough around the edges due to basically being written from scratch and then rewritten to take out Resonance so it doesn't feel quite done in comparison to the other classes. I like where they're going but the fact that you don't get a renewable resource comparable to focus powers just really sucks. Perpetual Potency would be close to this if it didn't take two actions to use. The additives are a cool idea but you can only ever apply it to one bomb since it's once a round and only applies to a single bomb. The Chirurgeon is hurt the worst though since even if you hand out your Elixirs of Life you've effectively turned your healing ability into multiple 2 action maneuvers that won't heal consistently till level 13. Even then, a healing focused Bard just one level higher can throw out a Soothing Ballad and do more healing than you could accomplish running around and using Quick Alchemy to bring up your party after an area attack goes wrong.
I've said it time and again but what I hate the most is how they specified the items in your class features, effectively future proofing any new items out of the base Alchemist's Perpetual Infusions, Perpetual Potency, and Perpetual Perfection.
Just a correction, elixirs of life are 2 actions to use:
Draw (interact) and drink (interact again)Coupled with their very low healing it makes for some extremely inefficient in combat healing.
First, some classes fight with free hands and can have the Elixir at hand from the beginning of the fight. Second, yes, it's two actions in general, so you must use two of your third actions in two consecutive rounds.
Third, it's not that inefficient, and really depends on how you are looking at it. It is inefficient if you consider the actions used to heal yourself to replace some relevant actions, like casting a spell or smashing something. It gets more and more efficient when you start replacing third actions, like useless movement after casting a spell or smashing with a -10. You can also consider that you give all your party members the ability to heal, which can prove itself crucial in some fights, or just an alternate course of action in most of them. And it doesn't cost massive ressources as soon as you get to level 5+ as you have a ton of alchemical items produced per day.
Also, Elixirs of Life are not that inefficient in terms of numbers. At level 5, an Elixir of Life heals 3d6+6 (16.5 on average). A Fighter with 14 Constitution has 60 hit points. So it's more than 25% of the Fighter's hit points. It's true that the Cleric heals 3d8+24 (37.5 on average) which is massively better, but at the same time you have a great chance for overheal, especially if you roll high. And because you have few high level spells, Clerics will often use lower level spell slots. 2d8+16 (25 on average) is now closer to what the alchemist does. Also 2 actions, but no third actions at all like for the Alchemist's Elixirs of Life.
In my opinion, it's two very different ways of healing. Clearly, Clerics are better healers, but Alchemists are not to be disregarded. They heal less, but at a far lower cost.
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They simply need a place where they are the "vastly superior option" as compared to Heal which is the "vastly superior option" in a lot of cases.
There is none. If you want to play a dedicated healer, Cleric is a better class than Alchemist. It doesn't make Alchemist bad, just the Alchemist is not a specialized character, it will never outperform compared to a more specialized one.
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They simply need a place where they are the "vastly superior option" as compared to Heal which is the "vastly superior option" in a lot of cases.There is none. If you want to play a dedicated healer, Cleric is a better class than Alchemist. It doesn't make Alchemist bad, just the Alchemist is not a specialized character, it will never outperform compared to a more specialized one.
That's just not a great thing to say about a class with a subclass that's supposed to be dedicated to healing. As is, it seems to be dedicated to curing poisons and diseases, which oddly enough their healing item gives a bonus to as well.
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That's just not a great thing to say about a class with a subclass that's supposed to be dedicated to healing. As is, it seems to be dedicated to curing poisons and diseases, which oddly enough their healing item gives a bonus to as well.
The Research Fields are no dedication. They are light specializations. The Research Field makes you a bit better in one domain, but you still have to rely vastly on the other domains to perform normally. So, a Chirurgeon is not much better than a Bomber at healing. A Chirurgeon has to use Poison, Bombs and Mutagens, and can't just rely on healing as his main contribution to the party.
For the chirurgeon:
A familiar with manual dexterity could fix the in combat healing action economy, with medicine you can also become pretty good with battle medic (without wisdom).
For overall healing prowess I would say yes each individual elixir is weaker than a heal spell (depending on the number of actions) however you can use them more often, unless you compare to a very charismatic 1st level cleric, than other healing classes.
The only issue I have with elixir of life is, that there is no 3rd level version.
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That's just not a great thing to say about a class with a subclass that's supposed to be dedicated to healing. As is, it seems to be dedicated to curing poisons and diseases, which oddly enough their healing item gives a bonus to as well.The Research Fields are no dedication. They are light specializations. The Research Field makes you a bit better in one domain, but you still have to rely vastly on the other domains to perform normally. So, a Chirurgeon is not much better than a Bomber at healing. A Chirurgeon has to use Poison, Bombs and Mutagens, and can't just rely on healing as his main contribution to the party.
I have to respectfully disagree. Your research field enables the other class features that key off of specific items so it definitely seems to be the case that you're supposed to be a specific kind of Alchemist. It's true that the feats aren't class locked but your free items are supposed to synergize with the feats since you have a finite resource to use Quick Alchemy with.
It's true that you'll have to dip into the other pools of items and pick up other item specific feats to stay effective but that's mostly because the Chirurgeon doesn't really have much they can do on their own aside from antitoxin and antiplague. You can't even really buff since you can't select Elixirs as your Perpetual items. Honestly, that might have been the best way to go for the Chirurgeon. Handing out Mutagens before battle feels like a bandaid to this issue but with the way the math is lined up, I'm wary of handing out a bunch of items that penalize my ally's saves. Other support characters don't have that issue.
Edit: Now that I've thought about it, Chirurgeon should have totally been able to use their Perpetual features for those other Elixirs. Handing out Stone Fist, Leaper, Cheetah, or Mistform elixirs would've gone a long way to making them feel like a real support class.
I have to respectfully disagree.
I will respectfully disagree with you, too.
I agree that, on paper, it looks like a specialization. But, when you look at it:- Feats are not locked to a specific Research Fields.
- Items are not locked to a specific Research Fields.
- Most Research Fields abilities are either bad or plain bad, including the Perpetual Infusions which are close to useless for all three Research Fields. The only good ones are at level 1 and 13. Considering that the level 13 one is hard to get, you basically have to choose between the level 1 abilities and that's all.
And, in my opinion, it's far more than a dip that you have to make. An Alchemist who is not using poisons, bombs, elixirs and mutagens at the same time will be behind a more versatile one.
Poisons are one of your main contribution. It's roughly one free attack per combat per slashing/piercing weapon (as long as you don't fight undeads). Elixirs are also good, in my opinion. You need to give everyone a few of them to be able to heal in situations where they don't have any good action to perform. Mutagens are a must have for ranged fighters (a +1 to hit is extremely hard to get at PF2). I also like the bestial ones for non weaponized classes, it allow them to fight in melee without having to invest in anything but a little bit of dexterity. Bombs is the only class feature asking for a specific stat (Dexterity). They are good for debuffing (Bottled Lightning) or hitting vulnerable monsters. For other situation, I would go for a bow.
Poisons, if you figure out how to deal with their economy of actions, hit like trucks. Poison your darts, melt people with both status effects and repeating, turn-after-turn ramping up damage; scout ahead and use your contact poison as a trap by figuring out where opponents come and by and poisoning the items they tend to touch; if they are stupid hungry monsters, drop some food laced with ingested poisons.
Alchemist looks really fun, but gigaton of your power will be in finding a niche item that is OK in most circumstances but turbogood in that one specific situation at hand and feeling like Batman for pulling it out.
Easiest way to deal with poisons is apply the poisons to your darts during prep at the start of the day which gives you some good alpha strike capability when needed. I think poisons will come into their own more when the poisoner speciality reappears. I think it got nixed due to space but I fully expect to see that return in the not too distant future.
That's just not a great thing to say about a class with a subclass that's supposed to be dedicated to healing. As is, it seems to be dedicated to curing poisons and diseases, which oddly enough their healing item gives a bonus to as well.The Research Fields are no dedication. They are light specializations. The Research Field makes you a bit better in one domain, but you still have to rely vastly on the other domains to perform normally. So, a Chirurgeon is not much better than a Bomber at healing. A Chirurgeon has to use Poison, Bombs and Mutagens, and can't just rely on healing as his main contribution to the party.
I completely agree, Alchemist specializations give you some extra tricks and resource efficiency with your specialized items, but they don't boost them enough for you to exclusively focus on them, and they don't boost them enough to make you better than every other class focusing in the same thing. Versatility and accepting that you're a flexible supporter of your party is the key to being happy as an Alchemist.
Crap, you're totally right. I'm apparently off today.
That doesn't effect my general assessment that alchemist does fine, but it does make Perpetual Infusions look a lot worse for bombers. It matters little for other users, of course.
Perpetual infusions for bombers is likely oriented towards their debuff bombs. That way you can use your main bombs for damage and be able to throw around debuffs with wild abandon. Dedicated debuffer is a pretty useful slot in a party.
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I have to respectfully disagree.I will respectfully disagree with you, too.
I agree that, on paper, it looks like a specialization. But, when you look at it:
- Feats are not locked to a specific Research Fields.
- Items are not locked to a specific Research Fields.
- Most Research Fields abilities are either bad or plain bad, including the Perpetual Infusions which are close to useless for all three Research Fields. The only good ones are at level 1 and 13. Considering that the level 13 one is hard to get, you basically have to choose between the level 1 abilities and that's all.
I agreed with you on all of these points. The research fields and perpetual abilities are my biggest disappointments with how the Alchemist is set up currently. What I would like to see is something more akin to Signature Items that the Alchemist can focus on for their Quick Alchemy and let them retrain them during downtime. Bombers could pick two types of Alchemical Bombs, Mutagenists get 2 mutagens, and then Chirurgeon get everything else. A clause excluding Elixirs of Life would be fine to disallow infinite healing.
And, in my opinion, it's far more than a dip that you have to make. An Alchemist who is not using poisons, bombs, elixirs and mutagens at the same time will be behind a more versatile one.
Poisons are one of your main contribution. It's roughly one free attack per combat per slashing/piercing weapon (as long as you don't fight undeads). Elixirs are also good, in my opinion. You need to give everyone a few of them to be able to heal in situations where they don't have any good action to perform. Mutagens are a must have for ranged fighters (a +1 to hit is extremely hard to get at PF2). I also like the bestial ones for non weaponized classes, it allow them to fight in melee without having to invest in anything but a little bit of dexterity. Bombs is the only class feature asking for a specific stat (Dexterity). They are good for debuffing (Bottled Lightning) or hitting vulnerable monsters. For other situation, I would go for a bow.
As someone currently playing a poison based Alchemist in 1e I agree that in this edition they're amazing but the Alchemist gets shut out of the ability to apply them quickly. I agree that the bombs are great for debuffing and hitting vulnerable monsters. My problem isn't with the items more so the class abilities relating to them. It honestly seems like you'd get more value out of multiclassing into Alchemist than being an Alchemist.
Also, I'm just really not a big fan of Mutagens in this edition overall. Yes a +1 is really great for a ranged fighter but that -2 to Fortitude and 2 x level hp damage that can't be healed for a minute is pretty major. That'll always be about a 5th of your health gone, more or less if you're a d8 hit die race with a +2 Con modifier, same goes for a d10 race with a +2 con mod. Same for Bestial Mutagen lowering AC and Reflex saves. I don't want to be the reason somebody got critted.
alternatively an alchemist with wizard dedication for a couple attack cantrips?Not really very attractive. starting as a wizard gets you 3 more cantrips, 1st level spells, the ability to recast spells, Spell Substitution or a super familiar [Extra Reagents, Familiar Focus and Cantrip Connection for +1 reagent, +1 cantrip and regain 1 focus], school [force bolt or drain bonded item 1/level].
Alchemist first instead gets me a + int reagents, a Research Field and quick alchemy, +1 skill, +2 hp/level and 1 better save [and light armor]...
IMO, it's pretty clear which I should have as a base.
Actually the Alchemy dedication only gives you your level for reagents so the amount you can make per day is pretty limited.
From the dedication.You gain the alchemist’s infused reagents class feature, gaining a number of reagents each day equal to your level.
It honestly seems like you'd get more value out of multiclassing into Alchemist than being an Alchemist.
If you multiclass into Alchemist, you only get access to low level items (5 levels under yours), and it costs you a bunch of feats to do so. So only bad Mutagens, easy to save poisons, low level Elixirs and bombs. In fact, I don't find any good reason to multiclass into Alchemist.
I don't know if the current Alchemist is on par with other classes (hard to know without having played one extensively), but I really think there's a place for one in a party. It's a synergistic class, if you can help your party members with what they do, I'm pretty sure you can be an asset.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It doesn't make Alchemist bad, just the Alchemist is not a specialized character, it will never outperform compared to a more specialized one.
I mean, clerics aren't exactly a specialized character either. They get a full suite of 9th level casting with your choice of top tier casting proficiencies or weapon bumps on top of their healing.
A chirurgeon alchemist who focuses on creating healing elixirs is spending a much more significant chunk of their daily resources on healing than a cleric who just throws some free divine font around.
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It honestly seems like you'd get more value out of multiclassing into Alchemist than being an Alchemist.If you multiclass into Alchemist, you only get access to low level items (5 levels under yours), and it costs you a bunch of feats to do so. So only bad Mutagens, easy to save poisons, low level Elixirs and bombs. In fact, I don't find any good reason to multiclass into Alchemist.
Precreate a bunch of support buffs (darkvision, speed, concealment, etc.), poisons (preapplied to arrows/darts and other weapons), and healing to pass around the party at the beginning of the day.
Antitode/Antiplauge have long duration and give better item bonuses than you'll be getting from your armor.
Bravo's Brew makes intimidation a little harder to last, as well as other fear effects.
Cat's Eye Elixir is great to have if you're facing concealed or hidden creatures.
Cheetah's Elixir for a speed.
A lesser/moderate Cognitive Mutagen can be used during exploration to aid with out of combat Aid Knowledge, you won't have an item bonus for every relevant skill and avoiding crit fails is useful.
Comprehension Elixir to read any languages you come across.
Darkvision Elixir is great for those who need it.
Eagle-Eye Elixir has a decent duration and is probably helping your trap finder out more than his existing perception item.
Infiltrator's Elixir is Illusory Disguise, with a 10 minute duration instead of 1 hour, but lets untrained disguise people try with a +4 bonus and doesn't require the 10 minute setup of a disguise kit.
Mistform Elixir gives you concealment, although you need the higher level versions for decent duration it's still the equivalent of a 2nd level defensive spell.
Salamander/Winter Wolf Elixir protect an individual from environmental heat/cold for a full day when you're exploring harsh climates.
Seatouch Elixir is pretty high level, but gives you as swim speed and eventually water breathing for a decent duration if you need to venture into the water.
Silvertongue Mutagen lets someone excel at social skills at the price of a penalty to some monster identification skills. A fair and good trade for many.
Plenty of these are good at level 5 versions (available for 2 feats by/after 10th level) and you can keep scaling at level-5 the reset of your career with a third feat. That's not bad at all on something like an Enigma bard who doesn't have a lot of good feats in his muse and is a support character.
alternatively an alchemist with wizard dedication for a couple attack cantrips?Not really very attractive. starting as a wizard gets you 3 more cantrips, 1st level spells, the ability to recast spells, Spell Substitution or a super familiar [Extra Reagents, Familiar Focus and Cantrip Connection for +1 reagent, +1 cantrip and regain 1 focus], school [force bolt or drain bonded item 1/level].
Alchemist first instead gets me a + int reagents, a Research Field and quick alchemy, +1 skill, +2 hp/level and 1 better save [and light armor]...
IMO, it's pretty clear which I should have as a base.
Actually the Alchemy dedication only gives you your level for reagents so the amount you can make per day is pretty limited.
From the dedication.You gain the alchemist’s infused reagents class feature, gaining a number of reagents each day equal to your level.
I was listing the differences depending on which class was taken first: level reagents is gained by both so I didn't list it: I only listed the difference, Int bonus reagents for the base alchemist.