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I don't think "there is an intelligent gorilla city in our Africa expy" isn't something you decide to realize the unfortunate implications of, it's something you probably think is fine until you realize the unfortunate implications. Like this realization is why the Arrowverse Grodd was a one-off experimental subject who gained psychic powers in the process, not the scion of a hidden gorilla civilization (yes, yes there's Earth-2 but such is the nature of multiverses.)
Like I don't think Paizo's intent was malicious, but intent kind of doesn't matter when you're still doing harm (it starts to matter when you stop doing it and start trying to make amends).
I'm definitely heartened by a commitment to present a more nuanced view of "evil ancestries" since doing so solves a great number of problems.
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It's a challenge with incorporating various tropes from pulp stories and other influences - not all of them were racially sensitive at the time they were published and that may taint things a bit even if Paizo tries to handle them with a more enlightened approach. A gorilla king harkens back to Tarzan stories as well as Gorilla Grodd/King Solovar and makes for a great, evocative hook. And I'm sure that was why it was included on a continent that would be the natural home for a gorilla-dominated society.
Same with the Varisian wagons, Harrow cards, scarves, and shady reputation.
That's the challenge. You want enough familiar tropes to populate a world so that RPGers can relate to them. Cultural, historical, and geographic analogs, tropes in literature and mythology. And you want to do them reasonable justice without having to write a PhD thesis on each one and without suggesting the worst aspects of the tropes and stereotypes involved.
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Paizo takes this topic very seriously. As do I. And step one, as I've mentioned, is to be open minded and learn from past mistakes.
The inclusion of a Gorilla King was NOT intended to be racist. It's unfortunate that the real world has a history of equating Africans with gorillas, and that's an awful and horrific and depressing example of the cruelty and ignorance of humanity that puts another tick in the mark of maybe we're a failed species that deserves extinction. I try hard NOT to fall down the misanthropic route, as tempting as it is, and do what I can to make things better for the world as much as I can.
The inclusion of a Gorilla King and the charau-ka was intended to follow in the tradition of animal-humanoids, like lizardfolk, ratfolk, catfolk, gnolls, serpentfolk, tengu, and so on, not as a commentary on African people.
It may have been a bit of rose-tinted glasses that we could include a Gorilla King without sending the wrong message. And certainly the world in which we were living in, even just 15 years or so ago when we first introduced the Gorilla King to the game, was less observant from a white privilege standpoint. Pathfinder was a smaller game with a smaller audience. Culture was different.
In those 15 or so years, things have changed. Some for the worse, sure, but it's important to remember that there are positive changes as well. Part of those changes, as tiny as they might be on a global scale, are the changes we are making to Golarion and Pathfinder... and among those tiny but important changes are decisions like the removal of the Gorilla King from a part of the setting by hard-coding his defeat into the history. And we'll be looking at ways to portray ALL evil ancestries, be they charau-ka or orcs or goblins, in a more open-minded light.
The game, at its core, is about fighting monsters, so don't expect all of these ancestries to be always-good going forward. Likewise, we won't be portraying dwarves and elves and humans as always good either.
As long as the overall...
Yeah, to be honest I never thought the Gorilla King was intended to be racist or be a stand in for Africans or anything. It's certainly something that could be taken the wrong way though, so probably a good thing that element was (sort of) removed. It's good to hear that "monstrous" ancestries are going to be portrayed in a more nuanced way too.
I don't think it's really accurate to say there aren't many black people creating RPGs. They're there, just not as prominent. Brandon Dixon (creator of Swordsfall) and Jerry D. Grayson (Khepera Publishing) come to mind.
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Or, y’know, the inventor of Cyberpunk 2020
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I wasn't responding to James when I talked about black people who create RPGs. And I don't really think of them as competitors to Paizo, honestly, since their games fill different niches and they reach a much smaller audience. Neither Swordsfall nor any of the games made by Khepera that I know of are d20 "dungeon fantasy" games. D&D is the real competitor to Paizo, and I guess one could argue the Star Wars RPG is competing with Starfinder to be the top space fantasy RPG. Unless you consider literally any tabletop role-playing game to be a competitor to Paizo.
And no offense, but I have to agree with Rysky here. You're being a bit more argumentative than necessary. I like maps too, though.
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I am gonna say I did not know the G word was a slur. I have not used it much IRL, but I am glad I stumbled across this thread
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Different words are slurs in different countries. Or even different parts of countries. You can't hope to know all of them everywhere, only do your best and say sorry when you get it wrong.
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I am gonna say I did not know the G word was a slur. I have not used it much IRL, but I am glad I stumbled across this thread
One problem with disallowing use of the word "Gypsy" is that there are still living people (and at least one dead celebrity) who have that as their personal name -- so you need to be sure of how the word is being used before you scold someone for using it.
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Gypsy is a racial slur? In the famous Disney film The Hunchback of Notre Dame, the word gypsy was very frequently used by almost everyone in the film, I remember. So I thought that word is not a racial slur at all. Well, if using that word would anger many people, I would stop using it.
The song of the south was also a disney movie. It is very commonly used especially in europe but it is still a slur.
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I am gonna say I did not know the G word was a slur. I have not used it much IRL, but I am glad I stumbled across this thread
This is actually pretty common in the US. We simply don't have that many Romani compared to europe and have very little of the negative history/sterotypes you see about them in europe. So people in the US just think that's the correct way to refer to them simply from lack of contact/interaction with them.
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I don't know, maybe people of Caucasus like Circassian/Abkhaz/Ossetes/Dagestanis could be model instead?Oh man. I've seen fantasy nations and races being based on the most obscure ethnicities, but never in my life I've seen anything in fantasy inspired by Caucasus region! It's like this part of the map is a blank space for Americans and Western Europeans, despite it holding some of the oldest still existing countries (Georgia, Armenia) and overall having a very distinct culture.
As for the "gypsy" word - aside from being used as a slur, it also means something akin to "adventurer" or "free spirit". Like, Jason Momoa's Instagram account is called "prideofgypsies" despite him not having any Roma blood or connection whatsoever.
I have a homebrew setting with a realm inspired by the Khazar Khaganate, which was partially in the Caucasus IIRC. One of the provinces of a major empire is based on Armenia as well. Can't think of any from properly published ones off the top of my head, though.
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As for the "gypsy" word - aside from being used as a slur, it also means something akin to "adventurer" or "free spirit". Like, Jason Momoa's Instagram account is called "prideofgypsies" despite him not having any Roma blood or connection whatsoever.
Yeah, nah. That “free spirit” connotation comes from its ties to a nomadic culture outside of the majority - the Romani people.
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I'm more glad about JJ not falling down the misanthropic route and that paizo is looking more positive ways to address issues.
I mean, I've always found it confusing when people talk about minorities being persecuted and then reach conclusions that human species should die since doesn't that include the said persecuted minorities and people from majority speaking against the persecution?
Its kinda like when someone says "People are horribly violent creatures, so we should kill all people", answering hate with more hate is just more hate <_<
But yeah, I'm glad about monsters races not being portrayed as always evil anymore. Like Gnoll's bestiary in 2e entry makes mention of gnoll tribes that sound more like CN or at least not as overly evil "Let's kill and torture and enslave for fun" and more product of harsh environment with really harsh survivalist mentality.
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On side note, another reason why I'm really glad about Paizo taking notice of treatment of romani is that its much closer to home for me. I mean, Finland is really homogeneous country and was really backwater and isolated before globalization, sure there are Sami people in north and other minorities, but we have much longer history of persecuting romani people than foreigners or other local minorities. Like in my parent's childhood it was normal to teach children horrible stereotypes and jokes about romani people(as in gallows humor type really dark stuff) and there still are people who refuse to give them services and such :/ (at least it causes scandal these days to be openly racist, but its still shocking how offensive things are even just 50 years ago)
I mean, I've always found it confusing when people talk about minorities being persecuted and then reach conclusions that human species should die since doesn't that include the said persecuted minorities and people from majority speaking against the persecution?Its kinda like when someone says "People are horribly violent creatures, so we should kill all people", answering hate with more hate is just more hate <_<
No idea when anyone said something like this, on here or in general...agree with the rest of what you said though.
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No idea when anyone said something like this, on here or in general...agree with the rest of what you said though.
I mean, I've always found it confusing when people talk about minorities being persecuted and then reach conclusions that human species should die since doesn't that include the said persecuted minorities and people from majority speaking against the persecution?Its kinda like when someone says "People are horribly violent creatures, so we should kill all people", answering hate with more hate is just more hate <_<
It didn't happen here, which is why I was glad about it. But I've honestly seen some people on other forums say similar things when they get depressed enough
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There are a few things I would like to touch on about the topics at hand. The first of which is the way the Varisian people have been used in the game and the way I saw them. Romani are in many cases still a nomadic ethno-cultural tribal/clan people who tend to only settle for short periods of time. They tend to work "non-conventional" jobs that lend more heavily to being artisans, migrant workers, performers, and a wide range of other legal jobs. This was captured pretty well in the Varisian people I felt.
My second point is that while there are portions of the Romani people, especially here in the US, that wholly reject the term Gypsy as a derogatory term thanks to the fact that it was used as a slur, it did not originate as such. It is also the legal term in the UK and Ireland for any people that live a migratory life in caravans/campers/tents. The Romany Gipsies are a recognized ethnic group with legal standing in England and Wales as are Irish Travelers which is another ethnic group with a lifestyle very similar to the Romani. There is also a growing population of both ethnic and cultural Romani that have returned to embracing and reclaiming the name Gypsy as their own. Using it with pride much like my fellow members of the LGBTQ+ community have embraced and reclaimed the names gay and queer.
Yes there is still along way to go before gypsy is a name that can be used as openly as gay and queer can be and should be used carefully and with much thought and compassion by people who are not either members of allies of the Romani people but it is a term that is again becoming a name for a proud and noble people who are doing the best they can to live in a world that still pushes those of us who are different to the edges of society.
The good news is that I can see Paizo trying to do that. Was there a misstep or two? Yes but they happened while Paizo was trying to go in the right direction and that is better than many other RPGs manage or even to get it.
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Yes there is still along way to go before gypsy is a name that can be used as openly as gay and queer can be and should be used carefully and with much thought and compassion by people who are not either members of allies of the Romani people
Members, full stop. The whole point of reclamation is that it reappropriates a term for use by the oppressed people, not that it legitimizes its use by the whole of society. If anything, a good reclamation creates or deepens the stigma/taboo around the term in the wider society.
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I play in Ustalav setting and actually think that Varisians were presented respectfully and having their own scary kingdom made them pretty cool. Also their divination abilities and harrow reading makes them special and useful and they really not feel like a buch of poor beggars making some cheap tricks.
I made Scarni hated a lot by other Varisians and a rather vicious gang, but I really dislike the name. Maybe it is not the best idea to just import suboptimal names from your homebrew James Jacobs.
I made Ailson Kindler a half-elf/Varisian with an ash skin and she´s pretty cool, but call her Alison or Alie by friends.
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Is it really a problem when a villainous organization discriminates on the basis of ethnicity? For example, I would imagine that most members of the Order of the Coil are Taldans/Chelaxians and that Mwangi are not admitted, and that most Taldans who are not members of that order would reject everything it stands for. Why would Sczarni criminals vs. respectable Varisians be any different?
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The real world counterparts of Varisians face racism, but it seems doubtful that Varisians would when there are whole nations where they form the majority of the population, including the ruling classes. It helps that Golarion lacks the real world concept of "white people" -- there seems to be (thankfully) no in-world way to lump together all the different ethnicities that look "white" to us.
Of course, both Taldans and Varisians would have varying degrees of worry about their counterparts depending on where they live. The Taldans who live in Sargava/Vidrian would be far more concerned about the Order of the Coil than those who live in Avistan. Similarly, nomadic Varisians would be far more concerned about Sczarni than the people of Ustalav.
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Also, I'm glad to learn the Sczarni aren't just all Varisian, all evil, all crime, all the time, but I can't remember having read as much in an actual book.
I don't doubt it's in there somewhere - not like I've memorized everything ever published - but the majority of what I can recall went the other way.
I guess that's gonna change in 2E, which is good. Looking forward to it.
As for slurs not originating as such... Few really do. This specific one, old as it is, is certainly born of disdainful, wilful ignorance. Not a great start.