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And they both took the nerf bat to magic to satisfy "martial" players and for the sake of "balance". Seriously? "Balance"? Is this a MMORPG? Or is this a pen and paper RPG?It's cooperative game you play with others to tell a story.That has always been the case.
I fail to understand why magic being, well, magic caused people such issues.
I would much rather they had gone the way "Tome of Battle" had gone, instead of nerfing magic.
1 character completely invalidating the rest of the group commonly enough was the issue.
And if you look over the Martial classes they are leaning into a ToB approach.
I seriously wish people would stop saying things like "the caster invalidated the rest of the party".
That statement is just blatantly false, and comes from either theorycrafting or poor DM'ing. But it was taken at face value and now look at wizards.
I mean... I could have (somehow) swallowed the pill if they had made it so you could use the heightened version of a memorized spell if you used a slot containing another, higher level memorized spell for it.
But you have to memorize it xD
Imagine. I am sure you will see plenty of people memorizing a heightened fireball... Or not. Because with three slots to memorize spells, I am sure you're going to waste one for it.
It is so NOT blatantly false. Oh I have the climb skill maxed out! Who cares I have mass fly. I have diplomacy! Yeah well I have charm, I have trap finding, Well I have a scroll of detect traps.
Wizards have way more then spell slots. Scrolls and wands are great for making up for what you don't want to memorize. With standard amount of money and planning you can handle most everything the rest of the party can do with scrolls wands and spell slots. A dm can curb this but now as a DM I have to play around the wizard.
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Finger of Death is a nice spell, pretty reliable. Disintegrate can be much better though in my opinion and you get access to that with your 6th level spells.
It does 12d10 base damage with another 2d10 for every level you heighten it. It also has much further range. Sucks that you can't use your school slot for it, but it's a really solid option.
I do think that they could have been a little bit better with Necromancer Wizards though. It does feel like they've been watered down a bit in their options compared to the other schools. That might come with them shifting Necromancy / Death over to a Divine focused casting discipline.
With that said while a Divine Necromancer may have a bit more options for pure Necromancy I still feel that an Arcane Wizard has quite a bit of utility available to them outside of that.
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Also agree they needed a lot of nerfs, but they went a bit overboard by applying all of the nerf ideas simultaneously.
I think this is my dissatisfaction: It's not so much that any one thing went too far but that the nerfs come at multiple angles.
But any time I have issue, I can just think 'well, it's not as bad as the alchemist...' That poor bastard starts encumbered with the base default equipment and it doesn't get much better after that. :(
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I'd really like to see a more comprehensive breakdown of specific spells that feel underwhelming in play now for people.
As a long time player of Wizards in Pathfinder, and someone who absolutely scoured spells for their ability to "break" the game and rewrite what was possible for the party and basically forced the GM to completely rewrite the 6th book of the Carrion Crown AP (Which he was on board with and basically said "bring it on" I'll completely rewrite the main villain as a smart and capable caster throwing everything he has at you, PS: PF1 diviners were absolutely absurd at high levels), I can say that i am overall pretty pleased with where the wizard has been brought back to.
High level wizard play in PF1 is really a different game than Adventure designers can write for and I am very curious how many people who feel that "wizards got nerfed" played in prewritten adventures or in long running homebrew games?
I would also be curious about how GMs who run organized play or primarily run prewritten adventures feel about the new wizard?
My overall take is that magic has definitely changed from PF1 to PF2, but there are really fun character builds possible thus far in PF2 and that spells are something that seem like will continue to see print, so the limited options of paths like the necromancer will probably open up eventually, but still remain different from what they were in PF1.
I think that sense of Wizards are very different with dialed in levels of narrative control and ultimate win spells is jarring for a lot of players, I just wonder if "Archmage: the Game" might be better as something different from PF2?
I am a bit disappointed with Teleport, as it seems that there's no instant recall to a set spot any more, in the vein of Divine Intervention or Word of Recall.
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Summoning does not exist anymore.I'm fairly certain that it does, actually. You just can't summon more than one thing really.
Think about summoning this way. The developers have said that during the playtest (not 1 to 1 of course, but closest thing with large data sets) the number of rounds per combat was around four regardless of level.
So round one, the caster starts casting a summoning spell. Functionally their actions have 0 bearing on the first round.
Round two, the summon (hopefully) completes. A generous interpretation of "Immediately when you finish casting the spell, the summoned creature uses its 2 actions for that turn" would give the caster all three of their actions in round two. This would give the caster a total of 5 actions through 2 rounds.
Round three, the caster has to sustain. This now means the caster can't move and cast in the same round (generally, barring a few exceptions). They also loose access to the ability to use three actions for a spell reducing the power of their spell slots in certain cases. At the end of this round, the caster has broken "even" with action economy and has contributed 9 actions in three rounds.
Rounds 4-10 the caster begins to accrue a single extra action per round. However, if the caster needs to move, then they likely lose an action (unless double moving), due to the bad economy of single action spells.
Additionally, it sounds like a summoned creature will only attack and only attack the foe nearest to it when the sustained action is used. If the caster wants it to cast a spell or change its focus, then the command action would need to be used further reducing the actions available to the caster. "It generally attacks your enemies to the best of its abilities. If you can communicate with it, *IF!* you can attempt to command it..."
So over the course of the expected combat length, the caster is potentially able to contribute 1 extra action. The longer the combat, the more extra actions they get. This does however assume that they are able to stand in one place, and cast 2 action spells without interruption and that the summoned creature attacking persistently is good.
That's not good and further removes casters from the ability to use the three action system.
*I let my 1E brain come in here. Move the calculations up a round, making the break even round 2, not 3. The other points still stand however. In a normal four round combat, summoning a monster contributes at most 2 extra actions.*
Round two, the summon (hopefully) completes. A generous interpretation of "Immediately when you finish casting the spell, the summoned creature uses its 2 actions for that turn" would give the caster all three of their actions in round two. This would give the caster a total of 5 actions through 2 rounds.
Why does summon only complete at the beginning of casters 2nd round?
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Summoning don't work this way, you summon the creature in the same turn that you cast the spell not in the following one, so in the turn that you cast a spell to summon a dragon you can make use of their 2 action and command it to use their breath weapon per example.
Round two, the summon (hopefully) completes. A generous interpretation of "Immediately when you finish casting the spell, the summoned creature uses its 2 actions for that turn" would give the caster all three of their actions in round two. This would give the caster a total of 5 actions through 2 rounds.Why does summon only complete at the beginning of casters 2nd round?
It doesn't, I think. You complete it after your three actions, and it immediately takes two actions on that round. It's not like PF1.
Round two, the summon (hopefully) completes. A generous interpretation of "Immediately when you finish casting the spell, the summoned creature uses its 2 actions for that turn" would give the caster all three of their actions in round two. This would give the caster a total of 5 actions through 2 rounds.Why does summon only complete at the beginning of casters 2nd round?
Ah, you're correct sir. That's my 1E brain at work. Shift everything forward a round.
Round 1 - 2 Actions contributed.
Round 2 - 6 Actions (Break even)
Round 3 - 10
Round 4+ - 1 Extra action per round.
Most of the points still stand though, with a summoned monster contributing around 2 extra actions in the average combat along with the penalties to movement and such.
Ah, you're correct sir. That's my 1E brain at work. Shift everything forward a round.
:thumbsup:
Most of the points still stand though, with a summoned monster contributing around 2 extra actions in the average combat along with the penalties to movement and such.
Well, the idea is you summoned that creature because it can do something better with those actions than you can. If you can hit the enemy better without exposing yourself, then don't summon. If you have spells to cast, do that and don't summon. But summoning gives you flexibility to get what you need for that specific combat, and with the extra actions to boost.
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I'd really like to see a more comprehensive breakdown of specific spells that feel underwhelming in play now for people.
As a long time player of Wizards in Pathfinder, and someone who absolutely scoured spells for their ability to "break" the game and rewrite what was possible for the party and basically forced the GM to completely rewrite the 6th book of the Carrion Crown AP (Which he was on board with and basically said "bring it on" I'll completely rewrite the main villain as a smart and capable caster throwing everything he has at you, PS: PF1 diviners were absolutely absurd at high levels), I can say that i am overall pretty pleased with where the wizard has been brought back to.
High level wizard play in PF1 is really a different game than Adventure designers can write for and I am very curious how many people who feel that "wizards got nerfed" played in prewritten adventures or in long running homebrew games?
I would also be curious about how GMs who run organized play or primarily run prewritten adventures feel about the new wizard?
My overall take is that magic has definitely changed from PF1 to PF2, but there are really fun character builds possible thus far in PF2 and that spells are something that seem like will continue to see print, so the limited options of paths like the necromancer will probably open up eventually, but still remain different from what they were in PF1.
I think that sense of Wizards are very different with dialed in levels of narrative control and ultimate win spells is jarring for a lot of players, I just wonder if "Archmage: the Game" might be better as something different from PF2?
Not even complaining about the "Narrative Control" side of things. Been a while since I've seen them mentioned in this thread. I'm talking straight up numbers for killing stuff in combat: The damage of blasts, the power of summons, the duration/power of buffs/debuffs. Things you can quantify with other classes.
I can live with Knock and Teleport being bad, am willing to go a bit 4E and have the wizard be just about fighting. But it should be able to do at least that competently, then.
Also there are some fantastic summon/other spell combos. Like sitting your Hell Hound in a wall of fire auto recharges their breath weapon constantly.
As written, you would have to command the hell hound to stay in the fire. Also you'd have to command it to use that breath weapon. A generous GM would probably allow a single "Stay in the fire and breath fire every turn" to cover it, but that still eats another action to set it up.
Your ignoring that actions 1 and 2 are normally way more useful than action 3. A caster without a summon up can cast a spell and then make some other action that isn't all that powerful probably with a -5 penalty. With a Summon up they can cast a spell and the summon gets 2 actions at full effectiveness.
Perfect protected, yes, this happens. However, if a bad guy gets up in the caster's face, they would have to move most likely and then lose the ability to cast that round. How often in 1E is a caster literally standing still? And having to move at all likely means losing the second action as well. With a summon up, taking out the caster should be even more prioritized by the bad guys since the summon would end with the caster unable to sustain.
Also there are some fantastic summon/other spell combos. Like sitting your Hell Hound in a wall of fire auto recharges their breath weapon constantly.
That's cool, although I can't offhand think of a way to have Summon Fiend and Wall of Fire on the same character at a reasonable level except via Sorcerer crossblooded. A 7th level Summon Fiend (Nessian Warhound) and a 4th level Wall of Fire to spam 10d6 15' cones with a bad reflex from a fixed location isn't actually a great use of resources.
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Not even complaining about the "Narrative Control" side of things. Been a while since I've seen them mentioned in this thread. I'm talking straight up numbers for killing stuff in combat: The damage of blasts, the power of summons, the duration/power of buffs/debuffs. Things you can quantify with other classes.I can live with Knock and...
Speaking of spell dmg, the below DPR (if I'm reading it right) points to spell dmg being weak (considering limited spell slots, and the fact some require a hit *and* a failed save):
HEREI realize that's single target so I'm more thinking the single target dmg spells like Disintegrate.
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Not even complaining about the "Narrative Control" side of things. Been a while since I've seen them mentioned in this thread. I'm talking straight up numbers for killing stuff in combat: The damage of blasts, the power of summons, the duration/power of buffs/debuffs. Things you can quantify with other classes.I can live with Knock and...
Speaking of spell dmg, the below DPR (if I'm reading it right) points to spell dmg being weak (considering limited spell slots, and the fact some require a hit *and* a failed save):
HEREI realize that's single target so I'm more thinking the single target dmg spells like Disintegrate.
Disintegrate is weird in that it's potentially amazing if you optimize it (True Strike and debuff AC/saves first) rather than just casting it. That attack roll is both an opportunity (crit fish) and a risk (miss entirely).
Also note that Distintegrate is the best Spell Combination option for a 20th level wizard. An 8th level slot holds a 24d10 double disintegrate, a 9th level holds a 28d10, and a 10th level a 32d10. With True Strike and AC/save debuff you've got a decent shot at double damage on those numbers, or an average of 264 points for an 8th level SC slotted Disintegrate. A crit attack roll and a normal failed save (or a hit and a crit failed save) with a 10th level SC Disintegrate will do on average 352 points of damage. And you can use your arcane bond to try again.
Edit: You've actually got a reasonable chance to one shot a level 20 Pleroma with this combo if you debuff, a small chance on a Pit Fiend, a very slim chance on a Tarn Linnorm, and no chance on a Balor or Ancient Gold Dragon. But twice in a row is going to be super nasty to any of them.
Also note that Distintegrate is the best Spell Combination option for a 20th level wizard. An 8th level slot holds a 24d10 double disintegrate, a 9th level holds a 28d10, and a 10th level a 32d10. With True Strike and AC/save debuff you've got a decent shot at double damage on those numbers, or an average of 264 points for an 8th level SC slotted Disintegrate. A crit attack roll and a normal failed save (or a hit and a crit failed save) with a 10th level SC Disintegrate will do on average 352 points of damage. And you can use your arcane bond to try again.
Very cool find, haven't had a chance to look at all the level 20 capstones (which I assume are insane - in 5e the Cleric can summon his god basically!)
I was looking for other single target dmg spells in Arcane and realized how few there are - Scorching Ray is gone for ex. Polar Ray adds Drain to so-so dmg so hard to compare. Purple Worm sting swings depending on poison save and adds enfeebled. Obviously cantrips can't (shouldn't) compare to fighter DPR.
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PF2 does feel like it has a lot of moving parts, which is why direct comparisons between spells feels a little off to me yet. Definitely in the analysis of weapons DPR feats play a major role in what can be done and to whom. I haven’t figured out the feats of all the casting classes yet, and have tried to focus on the wizard. The diviner is absolutely “nerfed,” but with good reason. The illusionist feels much better off than it was in the CRB of PF1, their focus power is great, illusions are clear and have reasonable duration and effects thought out based upon how people use them. And there is adequate feat and skill support for understanding that they want to cast their spells secretly. Haven’t looked at the others too close yet.
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Has anyone looked at the specialists so far? I think some of them really struggle because of heightening issues and not enough spell variety obsoleting their early bonus spells or making them just kind of suck.
Divination: Really poor options at most levels. It's not that your bonus spell slots go obsolete, they're mostly just not any good. These are literally every arcane divination spell in the CRB:
1: True Strike
2: Comprehend Language, Darkvision, See Invisibility
3: Clauraudience, Locate(U), Mind Reading(U)
4: Clairvoyance, Detect Scrying, Telepathy
5: Mind Probe(U), Prying Eye, Sending, Telepathic Bond(U), Tongues(U)
6: Scrying(U), True Seeing
7: True Target
8: Discern Location(U), Unrelenting Observation
9: Foresight
10: Wish
You have mandatory selections for your specialist slot at every level except 2, 4, and 5. Few of these are good to an adventurer.
Enchantment: Practically all of your best spells have the Incapacitation trait, so you have to heighten them to have a chance of good/great results on near level enemies. That orphans your early bonus spell slots. Here's your list of lower level spells without the Incapacitation trait:
1: Command, Fear
2: Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy
3: Dream Message, Enthrall
4: Confusion, Outcast's Curse
5. Crushing Despair
I can work with this, but it's very thin.
Evocation: Similar problem, most of your spells are damaging and get orphaned as you advance. Here's the nondamaging spells that won't go obsolete and are what your lower level slots will probably be full of as you advance:
1. Gust of Wind,
2. Continual Flame, Glitterdust, Telekinetic Maneuver
3. Wall of Wind
4. :-(
5. Control Water, Telekinetic Haul
Illusion: You can keep using your lower slots for utility and misdirection, but low damage and incapacitation traits dogs your direct offense. And your lower level slots are easily found by opposing magic if that matters. Better than average, certainly.
Conjuration: This actually holds up decently, you don't have to fill your slots with Summon X, plenty of defense and utility that works without heightening, even if it might benefit from it. Examples of spells that won't go obsolete and can be prepared throughout your career:
1: Air Bubble, Create Water, Floating Disk, Grease, Unseen Servant (for remote activation of things and immunity to physical hazards), Summon X (for trapfinding or scouting)
2: Create Food, Obscuring Mist, Phantom Steed, Web
3: Stinking Cloud
4: Blink, Creation, Dimension Door, Solid Fog
5: Black Tentacles, Wall of Stone
Maybe (still) the best school, given the depth of the spell list and the focus powers.
Necromancy: Your spells that aren't incapacitation and aren't numerically scaling HP damage or temp HP are...
1. Goblin Pox, Ray of Enfeeblement
2. Deafness, Gentle Repose, Spectral Hand
3. Bind Undead
4. :-(
5. Mariner's Curse
Yikes!
I'm not going to bother with Transmutation, I'm sure it's fine, if unexciting. Plenty of low level utility.
The overall trend, however, is that most classes have a very low range of practical choice for effective specialist bonus spells prepared late in their career. You need your top level slots for offense, and your low levels are only useful for what is often a very limited range of spell choices. So much for versatility.
I feel like until the spells expand Conjurers and Transmuters are good, Illusionists are fine, Enchanters and Evokers are ok, Necromancers are sad, and Diviners are a laughing stock. I'd seriously consider filling most of my bonus slots at all levels with True Strike as a Diviner.
I'm not going to bother with Transmutation, I'm sure it's fine, if unexciting. Plenty of low level utility.
Fine? Plenty of low level utility? Oh, great Xenocrat, please grace us with your thoughts on this matter, that us poor mortals may learn.
Conjuration is strong though.
Evocation is boring as hell, but typical. Just damage, damage, damage, damage, damage.
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Has anyone looked at the specialists so far? I think some of them really struggle because of heightening issues and not enough spell variety obsoleting their early bonus spells or making them just kind of suck.
Don't forget Abjuration. Speaking of which ... weirdly Protection (from Evil) is no longer Arcane, and is Uncommon. So ... strange, some of the decisions made. Overall, very few Arcane-only spells i.e. nothing very special about Wizard spells.
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Reading through the material I'd say they just removed the broken stuff and made casters more reliable during early levels so its isnt 1-6 you are a turbo dweeb that will cast one spell and be defenseless for the rest of the day.
So you can defend yourself with cantrips and spells still have their impact when they are meant to be used to solve the encounter.
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Darkness is Evocation now, and tbh it's much much better than it used to be. It certainly doesn't do any damage and can be used effectively.
I think I'm going to take a break from analyzing balance until I see some more things in place. The more I actually do game based stuff instead of theorycrafting, the more value I find in the work that was done.
If the Paizo guys are listening:
I know I seem like an unappreciative critic in probably 99% of my posts, but I do love the work you put in. Overall, it is fantastic for me on release and I have the same excitement as the first time I opened Core when switching from 3.5!
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I did forget Abjuration, and I just assumed transmutation. Let's look!
Abjuration: Here's your low level common rarity spells that aren't (entirely) obsoleted by failing to heighten them. (Dispel Magic and Spell Immunity are a gray area that I decided not to include.)
1: Alarm, Feather Fall, Lock, Negate Aroma
2: Endure Elements, Resist Energy(5)
3: :-(
4: Dimensional Anchor, Freedom of Movement, Resilient Sphere, Stoneskin(5)
5: Banishment
Yikes! Some dispels might make sense at level 2-3 for hail mary counter attempts as you advance if nothing else is better. I put this a notch above the Necromancer, below the Enchanter/Evokers.
Transmutation: Your combat ability in this school is largely from the Form spells, and you need to heighten them. Here's what's left at low levels:
1: Ant Haul, Fleet Step, Jump, Longstrider, Magic Weapon, Mending
2: Enlarge, Humanoid Form, Knock, Shrink, Spider Climb, Water Breathing, Water Walk
3: Earthbind, Feet to Fins, Ghostly Weapon, Haste, Meld into Stone, Shrink Item, Slow
4: Fly, Gaseous Form, Shape Stone
5: :-(
Yeah, this is pretty good relative to the other schools, on par with Conjuration. I'm not going to have a hard time finding something theoretically useful to fill a low level bonus spell in my career, and can carry some top polymorph combat forms in my top two levels of spells. The only thing I don't like here are the focus powers, but I don't love any of the wizard focus powers.
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Divination: Really poor options at most levels. It's not that your bonus spell slots go obsolete, they're mostly just not any good. These are literally every arcane divination spell in the CRB:1: True Strike
2: Comprehend Language, Darkvision, See Invisibility
3: Clauraudience, Locate(U), Mind Reading(U)
4: Clairvoyance, Detect Scrying, Telepathy
5: Mind Probe(U), Prying Eye, Sending, Telepathic Bond(U), Tongues(U)
6: Scrying(U), True Seeing
7: True Target
8: Discern Location(U), Unrelenting Observation
9: Foresight
10: Wish
As some one who has a lot of experience with diviners I think you are selling the divine spell list pretty short, spell-wise they are pretty on par with what they were in PF1, and are going to be more useful for some players and some campaigns than others. I mean, I doubt anyone will be complaining about wish, and foresight is one of the best buffs I have seen, at lower levels, True strike is worth a place in any slot and level 2 and level 3 spells are all situationally very useful. You only have to have 1 school spell memorized and there is no dead level to me. Diviners are very dependent upon GM cooperation and understanding but that has always been true. Scry and Fry can be nasty and radically change the game. At the same time, a diviner in a campaign with limited access to their uncommon spells is going to struggle.
There are also some great feat support for making the seer type wizard,. Also their focus powers are very good for filling that theme.
EDIT:@xenocrat - thank you for doing this, it was very needed for this thread.
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...Enchantment: Practically all of your best spells have the Incapacitation trait, so you have to heighten them to have a chance of good/great results on near level enemies. That orphans your early bonus spell slots. Here's your list of lower level spells without the Incapacitation trait:
1: Command, Fear
2: Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy
3: Dream Message, Enthrall
4: Confusion, Outcast's Curse
5. Crushing DespairI can work with this, but it's very thin.
...
Heightening is not required for Enchantment spells to continue being useful. Your DC raises with your level and is not dependent on the spell level you're casting it at.
If you do heighten a lot of those spells though they start affecting more targets or doing other effects.
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Divination: Really poor options at most levels. It's not that your bonus spell slots go obsolete, they're mostly just not any good. These are literally every arcane divination spell in the CRB:1: True Strike
2: Comprehend Language, Darkvision, See Invisibility
3: Clauraudience, Locate(U), Mind Reading(U)
4: Clairvoyance, Detect Scrying, Telepathy
5: Mind Probe(U), Prying Eye, Sending, Telepathic Bond(U), Tongues(U)
6: Scrying(U), True Seeing
7: True Target
8: Discern Location(U), Unrelenting Observation
9: Foresight
10: Wish
As some one who has a lot of experience with diviners I think you are selling the divine spell list pretty short, spell-wise they are pretty on par with what they were in PF1, and are going to be more useful for some players and some campaigns than others. I mean, I doubt anyone will be complaining about wish, and foresight is one of the best buffs I have seen, at lower levels, True strike is worth a place in any slot and level 2 and level 3 spells are all situationally very useful. You only have to have 1 school spell memorized and there is no dead level to me. Diviners are very dependent upon GM cooperation and understanding but that has always been true. Scry and Fry can be nasty and radically change the game. At the same time, a diviner in a campaign with limited access to their uncommon spells is going to struggle.
There are also some great feat support for making the seer type wizard,. Also their focus powers are very good for filling that theme.
The (U) notation is uncommon spells that you can't freely access. So clairaudience, with a 1 minute casting time, is the only spell you can put in your bonus slot (unless heightening another).
Scrying is also Uncommon, and almost entirely useless. Not only can it not be used to targeting a teleport (which wouldn't be accurate enough to get you there if it could), you can't hear anything, and unless they crit fail the sensor stays put if the target moves.
I don't think you're crazy for being a diviner, but I think it's easily the weakest for a traditional campaign. Uncommon rarity and the occult list stealing many of the best divinations really gutted your options until they print more spells.
Evocation: Similar problem, most of your spells are damaging and get orphaned as you advance. Here's the nondamaging spells that won't go obsolete and are what your lower level slots will probably be full of as you advance:
1. Gust of Wind,
2. Continual Flame, Glitterdust, Telekinetic Maneuver
3. Wall of Wind
4. :-(
5. Control Water, Telekinetic Haul
Evocation is missing some good spells there.
1. Hydraulic Push, being able to push a creature or object from 60ft is useful.
2. Darkness
3. Levitate
4. Fire Shield, cold resistance and fire damage to anything that touch, perfect to make stuff with fire weakness avoid attacking the caster in melee range.
5. Wall of Ice, Cone of Cold, cantrips don't reach the damage of this spell even at cantrip max level and 60ft cone is huge.
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...Enchantment: Practically all of your best spells have the Incapacitation trait, so you have to heighten them to have a chance of good/great results on near level enemies. That orphans your early bonus spell slots. Here's your list of lower level spells without the Incapacitation trait:
1: Command, Fear
2: Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy
3: Dream Message, Enthrall
4: Confusion, Outcast's Curse
5. Crushing DespairI can work with this, but it's very thin.
...Heightening is not required for Enchantment spells to continue being useful. Your DC raises with your level and is not dependent on the spell level you're casting it at.
If you do heighten a lot of those spells though they start affecting more targets or doing other effects.
Heightening is absolutely required for Charm, Suggestion, Dominate (if you get it), Paralyze, Feeblemind, Overwhelming Presence (not that it matters much when you start at 9th spell level), Sleep, Telepathic Demand (see Overwhelming Demand), Uncontrollable Dance (ditto), Warp Mind, and all the other non-enchantment "I win, you lose" spells because of the Incapacitate trait that Phntm888 explained.
A 1st level Charm spell has a nice DC at high level, but any creature level 3 or higher upgrades its save one step. That's a killer unless you heighten it or can expect a crit fail while being happy with a fail result. That's...not common.
Evocation: Similar problem, most of your spells are damaging and get orphaned as you advance. Here's the nondamaging spells that won't go obsolete and are what your lower level slots will probably be full of as you advance:
1. Gust of Wind,
2. Continual Flame, Glitterdust, Telekinetic Maneuver
3. Wall of Wind
4. :-(
5. Control Water, Telekinetic HaulEvocation is missing some good spells there.
1. Hydraulic Push, being able to push a creature or object from 60ft is useful.
2. Darkness
3. Levitate
4. Fire Shield, cold resistance and fire damage to anything that touch, perfect to make stuff with fire weakness avoid attacking the caster in melee range.
5. Wall of Ice, Cone of Cold, cantrips don't reach the damage of this spell even at cantrip max level and 60ft cone is huge.
I skipped Hydraulic Push because I figure Gust of Wind or Telekinetic Maneuver do the same thing but better as long as you don't care about the minor damage. It's fine, though.
Darkness isn't going to be good at higher level out of a 2nd level slot because of prevalent darkvision or higher level magical light (like a light cantrip cast by someone level 5+). But sometimes, sure.
I struggled to imagine why I'd care about levitate at higher levels, but it's not impossible.
I suppose Fire Shield has a niche. But its protective ability is available from the abjuration school as a 2nd level spell.
I agree on the 5th level ice spells.
The (U) notation is uncommon spells that you can't freely access. So clairaudience, with a 1 minute casting time, is the only spell you can put in your bonus slot (unless heightening another).
I think we both agree that the Diviner is dead in the water without GM support. But that was always the case with scrying type spells. Hopefully getting access to uncommon divination spells is a part of that support. A GM not interested in incorporating Scrying is probably not a great fit for a diviner.
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Fighting against a White Dragon, cast fire shield, now you not only get resistance against the breath weapon but every time that it attacks the Wizard (trying to score a critical hit to recharge the breath weapon) it takes not only 2d6 fire damage but the weakness for even more damage as well. An Ancient one have like 15 fire weakness, attacking the Wizard 3 times would mean 45 damage to itself.
Levitate works on objects as well so it have a ton of utility/fun stuff to with it as well.
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I think we both agree that the Diviner is dead in the water without GM support. But that was always the case with scrying type spells. Hopefully getting access to uncommon divination spells is a part of that support. A GM not interested in incorporating Scrying is probably not a great fit for a diviner.
The (U) notation is uncommon spells that you can't freely access. So clairaudience, with a 1 minute casting time, is the only spell you can put in your bonus slot (unless heightening another).
Scrying is so weak now they should have made it a cantrip, it wouldn't unbalance anything.
Has anyone looked at the specialists so far? I think some of them really struggle because of heightening issues and not enough spell variety obsoleting their early bonus spells or making them just kind of suck.
I am surprised the Conjurer gets so well off! Perhaps just in comparison to the others? I just worked through some signature spells from 1e. Web got heavily nerfed, even a success is not really a... success. What is -10 ft to speed good for? Stinking cloud got also hit hard. I mean, the ongoing sickness after leaving the cloud deserved to be banned. But there is no real sickness any more. Just a ridiculous -1 on a failure. And last but not least, tiny hut is gone. But that wasn't meant to be the combat spell it was always used as, right? :)
Scrying is so weak now they should have made it a cantrip, it wouldn't unbalance anything.I think we both agree that the Diviner is dead in the water without GM support. But that was always the case with scrying type spells. Hopefully getting access to uncommon divination spells is a part of that support. A GM not interested in incorporating Scrying is probably not a great fit for a diviner.
The (U) notation is uncommon spells that you can't freely access. So clairaudience, with a 1 minute casting time, is the only spell you can put in your bonus slot (unless heightening another).
Boosting it from level 4 to level 6 seems a bit harsh, and clearly, putting an end to scry and fry as a tactic that could come online as early as 9th level is a big part of that, but the scrying itself is more useful because you have vision in all directions from the eye, so even if the target moves you can see quite a bit of what is going on. PF1 scrying only lets you see in a 10ft radius and took 1 hour to cast instead of 10 minutes. Greater scrying was the far superior spell, but that was level 7 and I guess they decided to split the difference. Plus, from the wording, it seems like all the scrying spells let you use magically empowered senses, which is a big boost from PF1: Darkvision, see invisibility, true sight, etc. Scrying still works anywhere on the planet, and if used correctly, as in PF1, you are targeting a low level minion/family member/associate of the true target so the DC will be significantly lower.
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You better hope you can read lips and he doesn’t walk to another room. Good for voyeurs, not so good for gathering intelligence.
You better hope you can read lips and he doesn’t walk to another room. Good for voyeurs, not so good for gathering intelligence.
I’d be happy to play a diviner in a campaign you run to put the utility of a diviner to the test.
Has anyone looked at the specialists so far? I think some of them really struggle because of heightening issues and not enough spell variety obsoleting their early bonus spells or making them just kind of suck.I am surprised the Conjurer gets so well off! Perhaps just in comparison to the others? I just worked through some signature spells from 1e. Web got heavily nerfed, even a success is not really a... success. What is -10 ft to speed good for? Stinking cloud got also hit hard. I mean, the ongoing sickness after leaving the cloud deserved to be banned. But there is no real sickness any more. Just a ridiculous -1 on a failure. And last but not least, tiny hut is gone. But that wasn't meant to be the combat spell it was always used as, right? :)
I actually thought stinking cloud was quite brutal. First, you have to get out of the spell or you save again at the end of your turn (and risk getting a worse result. Second, sickened doesn't end when you leave the cloud. The slowed condition does (though leaving the cloud while slowed means you lose 2 actions) but the sickened requires you to successfully wretch enough to reduce the value to 0. In the meantime, have fun with a -1 or 2 on all attacks, saving throws, AC, and spell DCs. And while you are in the cloud, any target effect (including spells) have a chance of failing. A decent way of getting a crowd to scatter out and lose some actions.
It isn't the nauseated condition from PF1, but it is still a brutal spell AoE, and I don't think you need to heighten it unless you are worried about dispel/spell immunity, so a good way to fill 3rd level slots at higher levels.
Transmutation: Your combat ability in this school is largely from the Form spells, and you need to heighten them. Here's what's left at low levels:
1: Ant Haul, Fleet Step, Jump, Longstrider, Magic Weapon, Mending
2: Enlarge, Humanoid Form, Knock, Shrink, Spider Climb, Water Breathing, Water Walk
3: Earthbind, Feet to Fins, Ghostly Weapon, Haste, Meld into Stone, Shrink Item, Slow
4: Fly, Gaseous Form, Shape Stone
5: :-(Yeah, this is pretty good relative to the other schools, on par with Conjuration. I'm not going to have a hard time finding something theoretically useful to fill a low level bonus spell in my career, and can carry some top polymorph combat forms in my top two levels of spells. The only thing I don't like here are the focus powers, but I don't love any of the wizard focus powers.
Hm, I guess if you focus at higher levels then lower levels can be left with this, sure. Problem is what to do while you are at those levels. Many of these spells are very situational, and frankly, I do not enjoy the idea of being "Magic Weapon" dispenser. There's a reason I do not play clerics.
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I am surprised the Conjurer gets so well off! Perhaps just in comparison to the others? I just worked through some signature spells from 1e. Web got heavily nerfed, even a success is not really a... success. What is -10 ft to speed good for? Stinking cloud got also hit hard. I mean, the ongoing sickness after leaving the cloud deserved to be banned. But there is no real sickness any more. Just a ridiculous -1 on a failure. And last but not least, tiny hut is gone. But that wasn't meant to be the combat spell it was always used as, right? :)
Web is just sad and nerfed in all dimensions. A tiny 10ft burst of difficult terrain that *if* you luck out and they fail their save reduces speed by -10 for 1 whole round? Wooo, look out I am the mighty quadratic Wizard! I can do this again tomorrow, so shudder in despair! ;)