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I think drawing a weapon in front of someone who can make AoO should be risky, so I don't necessarily have a big issue with quickdraw not stopping that risk. It makes those who invest in the ability to do AoO more dangerous.
I think the idea of beginning a parry action with a weapon for which you are trained, or restoring a second hand onto an uncontested two-handed weapon so you are wielding again shouldn't provoke an AoO. Getting your first hand on it however would constitute drawing, but I kind of feel holding it one handed and adding the second hand should be a safer action. It would be fine to be something that can chew up an action to do, but shouldn't normally cause an AoO.
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I think the point is that if you do that and it triggers, that's just the start of initiative and at that point you're just taking your turn.
Which doesn't always happen. I've run plenty of situations where players set up some sort of ploy and didn't start a combat. Seems odd to me that this is the assumption, but it is also off topic, so I'll drop it.
My issue with quick draw is in how specific it is. Quick draw, as written, is iaojutsu. I wanted a quick draw technique that allows the drawing of items for within a shorter duration, such as pulling out two weapons at once, pulling out a potion or elixir and using it, or pulling out a weapon while moving. Mandatory weapon drawing also seems like a limited solely for martial characters, as Casting a spell does not force casters to spend actions to draw casting implements.Yeah, I was looking at the ranger and fighters 2 weapon feats and thinking "how do you draw all those weapons?"
Quickdraw putting a strike into the action really doesn't help because then you're already onto Multiple Attack Penalty which you might want to avoid when using another feat. And it blocks Open feats because you've already made an attack.
I don't understand why they didn't just make it a "free action once per turn" to draw a weapon.
You know, I was further reflecting on this suggestion, and it would not be a strict upgrade or improvement to the character's quality of life by any stretch. Yes, it is better if you are drawing ONE weapon before moving into melee and the enemy has AoO, or have a particular open you would need to use.
It is strictly worse in scenarios where:
A) You need to draw two melee weapons. You wind up still needing to spend an action drawing one where quickdraw would have let you be striking.
B) Thrown weapons, which notably include bombs. Any time you want to throw more than one thing, you're better off being able to Quick Draw more than once per round.
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On the changing grips. I know it isn't a paragon of realism but the medieval combat game Mordhau (named after a popular grip) has grip changing and it feels pretty right. It does take nonzero time to do and if you try and do it within another player's reach they will punish you for it.
Most often, you switch grips as part of some other action, not as a discrete thing. Might be part of a parry, stance shift, or strike, for example. Given that characters in pathfinder are assumed to be trading blows continuously while adjacent (and not just standing and glaring at one another), it makes more sense for grip switching to just be a part of this process. It certainly doesn't take two seconds or open you up to attack when done right (speaking from rapier and longsword experience).
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It certainly doesn't take two seconds or open you up to attack when done right (speaking from rapier and longsword experience).
*nods* I trained in Gumdo, staff/stick, nunchuku, spear and knife as part of my taekwondo/hapkido training: grip switches weren't discrete actions but part of your overall combat moves. The whole action to grip a weapon just seems odd IMO.
It certainly doesn't take two seconds or open you up to attack when done right (speaking from rapier and longsword experience).*nods* I trained in Gumdo, staff/stick, nunchuku, spear and knife as part of my taekwondo/hapkido training: grip switches weren't discrete actions but part of your overall combat moves. The whole action to grip a weapon just seems odd IMO.
While you were playing with swords, I studied game design.
It certainly doesn't take two seconds or open you up to attack when done right (speaking from rapier and longsword experience).*nods* I trained in Gumdo, staff/stick, nunchuku, spear and knife as part of my taekwondo/hapkido training: grip switches weren't discrete actions but part of your overall combat moves. The whole action to grip a weapon just seems odd IMO.
Odd, because with the weapons training I have done we were conditioned to take advantage of any time hand position was changing.
Of course we also trained to defend ourselves from this to the best of our ability. But I would consider that to be under the AC umbrella.I have only trained in staff work and a bit of nagitana when it comes to weaponry that is used with two hands though.
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I don't understand why they didn't just make it a "free action once per turn" to draw a weapon.You know, I was further reflecting on this suggestion, and it would not be a strict upgrade or improvement to the character's quality of life by any stretch. Yes, it is better if you are drawing ONE weapon before moving into melee and the enemy has AoO, or have a particular open you would need to use.
It is strictly worse in scenarios where:
A) You need to draw two melee weapons. You wind up still needing to spend an action drawing one where quickdraw would have let you be striking.
B) Thrown weapons, which notably include bombs. Any time you want to throw more than one thing, you're better off being able to Quick Draw more than once per round.
How OP would changing Quick Draw to "drawing weapons is now a free action for you, period" be?
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I think the point is that if you do that and it triggers, that's just the start of initiative and at that point you're just taking your turn.Which doesn't always happen. I've run plenty of situations where players set up some sort of ploy and didn't start a combat. Seems odd to me that this is the assumption, but it is also off topic, so I'll drop it.
Just now, instead of initiative starting at the old 'when the fighter kicks the door down, I cast cloudkill into the room', the start of combat is now your initiative (stealth) vs. their initiative (perception). The enemy has a baked into the rules chance to hear you getting ready and doing their thing first.
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Just now, instead of initiative starting at the old 'when the fighter kicks the door down, I cast cloudkill into the room', the start of combat is now your initiative (stealth) vs. their initiative (perception). The enemy has a baked into the rules chance to hear you getting ready and doing their thing first.I think the point is that if you do that and it triggers, that's just the start of initiative and at that point you're just taking your turn.Which doesn't always happen. I've run plenty of situations where players set up some sort of ploy and didn't start a combat. Seems odd to me that this is the assumption, but it is also off topic, so I'll drop it.
Exactly, to expand this example
Two guards are in a room expecting the murder hobo adventurers to come through and wantonly slaughter them. The adventurers are going to kick in the door and the the wizard is going to cast cloud kill when they kick in the door.
With the current system and the four combatants the players tell the GM what they are planning to do.
The fighter kicks in the door, initative rolls
Guard Leader: 21
Fighter: 17
Wizard: 8
Guard Mook: 4
The guard leader readies to shoot whomever they heard running at the door as it bursts open.
The fighter bursts in and gets shot at but the guard mook's response time is too slow and the fighter quickly dodges back behind the wall after taking a shot from the guard leader.
The wizard sets off their spell in the room
The guard mook now has their turn on the ground choking to death.
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I believe this is a more engaging and natural narrative than having four readied actions all going off at once outside of initiative and unrelated to the fact that the guard mook would otherwise have had a bad reaction time.
Old version:
If the party succeeded at stealth vs perception, they could chain readied actions together with impunity during a surprise round.
New version:
The stealth check is their initiative. The 'opposed roll vs. perception' Is the guard's initiative.
I also like letting the fighter roll athletics for initiative when kicking the door down, how well they roll meaning how quickly they can knock the thing in. In one sudden kick being a good roll, after trying a few times being a bad initiative roll letting the guards inside ready their own actions.
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Odd, because with the weapons training I have done we were conditioned to take advantage of any time hand position was changing.
Well while what you say is true, it's mostly something you use against someone that's not familiar with weapons.
Of course we also trained to defend ourselves from this to the best of our ability. But I would consider that to be under the AC umbrella.
It's the ability to not leave yourself open when using your weapon and why you don't see that discrete hand change and instead see one fluid move that includes a hand/grip change.
While you were playing with swords, I studied game design.
Good for you? Do you actually have something relevant to add or was the dismissive tone all you had to bring to the table?
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While you were playing with swords, I studied game design.Good for you? Do you actually have something relevant to add or was the dismissive tone all you had to bring to the table?
I think my meaning was clear to most.
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Quick Draw seems like a feat for thrown weapon builds. To draw two weapons, move and strike, you want a feat to combine the Move and Strike actions rather than drawing more quickly.
I could also see something like a Double Draw Feat in a supplement down the line
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"Frequency: once per turn" really hurts the thrown weapon builds
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Quick draw: When you use the interact action to pull out an item you may use one of the following actions as part of this action: stride, strike, manipulate, or interact.
I don’t think this would be unreasonable, and while some might have other special actions they would like to do, such as rage, I don’t think that adversely affects those characters as much as two weapon users.
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Quick draw: When you use the interact action to pull out an item you may use one of the following actions as part of this action: stride, strike, manipulate, or interact.
I don’t think this would be unreasonable, and while some might have other special actions they would like to do, such as rage, I don’t think that adversely affects those characters as much as two weapon users.
Manipulate isn't an action, it's a trait of an action. And adding interact as a rider on interact gets us into an infinite rabbithole.
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Quick draw: When you use the interact action to pull out an item you may use one of the following actions as part of this action: stride, strike, manipulate, or interact.
I don’t think this would be unreasonable, and while some might have other special actions they would like to do, such as rage, I don’t think that adversely affects those characters as much as two weapon users.
Manipulate isn't an action, it's a trait of an action. And adding interact as a rider on interact gets us into an infinite rabbithole.
So... change manipulate and interact to "interact with the same object once, or interact with one other item once."
I think adding one interact as part of its own action is much more balanced than adding it on as a free action but would also make it useful enough to be picked as a non-thrown weapon feat.