Enchanting Question


Rules Questions


A level 5 wizard can create a +5 sword by beating the DC by 5 to bypass the caster level requirement. If someone wants to Identify this sword later is the target based on his level of 5 or the caster level for a +5 sword (15).

If you can enchant at a higher level caster could a 11th level caster by adding 5 to the dc craft a staff with fireball at level 20 caster level (dc 20 +5 +5 (not having that level) for 30 DC)?

The Exchange

Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
this means you have to be 15th caster level. in the end ask your GM to see how works for them


I am sure this debate is on the boards somewhere, but there is also this passage which would indicate that the special requirement that is quoted above can be waived with the +5 DC:

Magic Item Creation wrote:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

bolded the relevant passage and included full text for context

However, it must also be noted that if you do not meet that requirement, then the weapon will have a lower save than a standard item, which can be bad if you run into things that affect items with spells or other effects.


Item crafting isn't Pathfinder's strong point. They inherited a good system from DND 3.5, but then they made some changes while doing a not so good job explaining things.

Let me help you. The DC for crafting magic items is 5 + the caster level. A +5 magic sword would need a caster level of 15 (needs a caster level of 3 times the bonus), so it would have a crafting DC of 20. Trying to ignore the caster level prerequisite would raise the DC to 25. I consider it fair to keep the craft DC even though you are trying to ignore a prerequisite that made it high in the first place. I see it as trying to fake a high caster level instead of ignoring it.


I am sorry I may not have been clear.

I realize the DC for the +5 sword when lower level is 25, what I am asking is for purposes of identifying the sword (spellcraft check of DC 15 + Caster level) or Dispelling Magic on the sword to temporarily suppress it, is the caster level of the sword 15 or the level of the mage who enchanted it.

For purposes of enchanting a staff can you if you make the roll (DC 30) and spend the extra time and gold enchant fireball or any other spell at level 20.


The sword CL is determined by the weapon abilities. +5 means CL 15 unless there is something else higher CL involved.

For spell trigger and spell completion items, it is generally interpreted that you can’t make the item at a higher CL than the spells used to make it (i.e., your own CL).

Liberty's Edge

As I see it, you lack 4 prerequisites if your level is 3.
The first is the 6 CL to make a +2 weapon, the second is the 9 levels to make a +3 weapon, the third the twelve levels to make a +4 sword and the fourth the fifteen to make a +5 sword.
And it needs to have a Cl of 15, so that set the base DC.

So the DC is 40: 5 base,+15 CL, +(5*4) for lacking 4 prerequisites.

The weapon will have a CL of 15.

Liberty's Edge

Lelomenia wrote:
For spell trigger and spell completion items, it is generally interpreted that you can’t make the item at a higher CL than the spells used to make it (i.e., your own CL).

I agree. As I see it, for those items you need the spell, and you get at most the CL of the actual spell you consume when making the item.

It is not possible to turn a scroll with a CL of 1 into a scroll with a CL of 20 simply using them for crafting.


The headaches of tracking the exact CL of items where it may vary from the standard suggest to me it'd be best to assume that magic items use the standard CL for their type, even when crafted by a wizard of below their base CL.

Liberty's Edge

avr wrote:
The headaches of tracking the exact CL of items where it may vary from the standard suggest to me it'd be best to assume that magic items use the standard CL for their type, even when crafted by a wizard of below their base CL.

If the listed CL isn't a requirement (as an example, almost all wondrous items CL isn't part of the requirements) it only set the base DC of making an item.

Take the teleport object. Making it require the Secret chest spell. A 5th level spell, so it has a minimum CL of 9, but that isn't a requirement (while the CL is a requirement for a weapon).
A level 3 wizard can make it. The DC is 19: 5 (base)+ 9 (CL of the item) +5 (for lacking Secret chest as a 3rd level wizard can't prepare it).
Most 3rd level wizards can make it easy as their bonus to Spellcraft should be 9 or 10: 3 (class skill) + 3 (maximized skill) + 3 or 4 (16-18 intelligence). When making the check they can take 10, so no sweat, it is an automatic success.


Diego Rossi wrote:

As I see it, you lack 4 prerequisites if your level is 3.

The first is the 6 CL to make a +2 weapon, the second is the 9 levels to make a +3 weapon, the third the twelve levels to make a +4 sword and the fourth the fifteen to make a +5 sword.
And it needs to have a Cl of 15, so that set the base DC.

So the DC is 40: 5 base,+15 CL, +(5*4) for lacking 4 prerequisites.

The weapon will have a CL of 15.

This is blatantly false. There is only a single caster level requirement, in this case it's CL 15.

You are making a +5 sword. Not a +1 then +2 then +3 then +4 and finally a +5 sword. If you start making it at a rate of 2000 gp/day, and stop 4 days in, it is not a +2 sword, it is still a non-magical sword.

They could choose to make it a +1 sword and upgrade it in stages, in which case each stage would have a single CL requirement which could be bypassed for +5 to the crafting DC.


Diego Rossi wrote:

As I see it, you lack 4 prerequisites if your level is 3.

The first is the 6 CL to make a +2 weapon, the second is the 9 levels to make a +3 weapon, the third the twelve levels to make a +4 sword and the fourth the fifteen to make a +5 sword.

This isn't a thing.


avr wrote:
The headaches of tracking the exact CL of items where it may vary from the standard suggest to me it'd be best to assume that magic items use the standard CL for their type, even when crafted by a wizard of below their base CL.

I recall a FAQ or post by a dev that mentioned this exact thing for crafters (it is too late tonight for me to search the internet for it). It is necessary to keep notes about crafted items that differ from their standard items. For example, a scroll of a first level spell with a third level caster effect would be something like: scroll of magic missile caster level 3, whereas all magic items without such notation are assumed to be (or defaulted to be if assume is a word you do not use) the minimum caster level needed to make the item in the first place (and since it is this topic of discussion I have to add) legitimately without lack of caster requirements (i.e. scroll of magic missile without notation that it is caster level 1).


Ughbash wrote:

A level 5 wizard can create a +5 sword by beating the DC by 5 to bypass the caster level requirement. If someone wants to Identify this sword later is the target based on his level of 5 or the caster level for a +5 sword (15).

If you can enchant at a higher level caster could a 11th level caster by adding 5 to the dc craft a staff with fireball at level 20 caster level (dc 20 +5 +5 (not having that level) for 30 DC)?

Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

Note that the special prerequisite is not listed on the description, so it cannot be skipped by the +5 DC.

Crafting staves do not have a special prerequisite and thus allow you to make any staff you can pay for and can hit the DC of.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:
Ughbash wrote:

A level 5 wizard can create a +5 sword by beating the DC by 5 to bypass the caster level requirement. If someone wants to Identify this sword later is the target based on his level of 5 or the caster level for a +5 sword (15).

If you can enchant at a higher level caster could a 11th level caster by adding 5 to the dc craft a staff with fireball at level 20 caster level (dc 20 +5 +5 (not having that level) for 30 DC)?

Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

Note that the special prerequisite is not listed on the description, so it cannot be skipped by the +5 DC.

Crafting staves do not have a special prerequisite and thus allow you to make any staff you can pay for and can hit the DC of.

/cevah

Staves are actually spell trigger items so keep in mind you must meet the spell requirements somehow.


Thedmstrikes wrote:

I am sure this debate is on the boards somewhere, but there is also this passage which would indicate that the special requirement that is quoted above can be waived with the +5 DC:

Magic Item Creation wrote:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

bolded the relevant passage and included full text for context

However, it must also be noted that if you do not meet that requirement, then the weapon will have a lower save than a standard item, which can be bad if you run into things that affect items with spells or other effects.

Specific trumps general and your statement is correct. I would point out that there are certain things that will call this rule out to say it doesn't apply. Golems come to mind. This further supports your point on the add 5 to bypass. I don't believe the dispel thing is accurate though.. I was under the impression that if you made the item it was considered the listed CL unless you paid more to increase save DC... My reasoning for this is that item cost is partially determined by the CL of the item


@Screaminjim: Golems are constructs, so are covered here:

Like when crafting magic items, a creator with a sufficiently high skill bonus may ignore these requirements. Each missing requirement increases the Craft DC by 5. Regardless, the creator must meet all item creation feats and minimum caster level requirements.

/cevah

Liberty's Edge

Cevah wrote:
Ughbash wrote:

A level 5 wizard can create a +5 sword by beating the DC by 5 to bypass the caster level requirement. If someone wants to Identify this sword later is the target based on his level of 5 or the caster level for a +5 sword (15).

If you can enchant at a higher level caster could a 11th level caster by adding 5 to the dc craft a staff with fireball at level 20 caster level (dc 20 +5 +5 (not having that level) for 30 DC)?

Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

Note that the special prerequisite is not listed on the description, so it cannot be skipped by the +5 DC.

Crafting staves do not have a special prerequisite and thus allow you to make any staff you can pay for and can hit the DC of.

/cevah

Good point!


Ughbash wrote:


If you can enchant at a higher level caster could a 11th level caster by adding 5 to the dc craft a staff with fireball at level 20 caster level (dc 20 +5 +5 (not having that level) for 30 DC)?

I think others have covered the weapon part. Lets look at the staff part.

Staves are spell trigger items. At the beginning of the section on creating magic items it says "In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites." And goes on to say "While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."

That means you don't have to use your full level when making a magic item. However, it says nothing about making one above your level. Under "Caster Level" it does say "For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself"

But Staves are not mentioned. So the conclusion is you could make a staff more powerful than yourself.

By the way, why would you want a CL 20 staff that casts Fireball? Fireball is capped at level 10. You have to use metamagic to add more dice to the damage. The metamagic used would increase the spell level without changing the DC of the spell. You would be better off using a higher level spell with a higher dice limit than adding metamagic to a lower level spell.

Casters use metamagic on spells like Fireball because they can take feats and talents that lower the spell level modifier. Items do not benefit from feats or talents. If you create a staff of Empowered Intensified Fireball it is a SL 6 spell with no way to reduce its SL. Your better off using an actual SL 6 spell like Chain Lightning so the DC to save is set at SL 6 instead of SL 3.


Meirril wrote:
Ughbash wrote:


If you can enchant at a higher level caster could a 11th level caster by adding 5 to the dc craft a staff with fireball at level 20 caster level (dc 20 +5 +5 (not having that level) for 30 DC)?

I think others have covered the weapon part. Lets look at the staff part.

Staves are spell trigger items. At the beginning of the section on creating magic items it says "In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites." And goes on to say "While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."

That means you don't have to use your full level when making a magic item. However, it says nothing about making one above your level. Under "Caster Level" it does say "For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself"

But Staves are not mentioned. So the conclusion is you could make a staff more powerful than yourself.

Agree with your statement; caveat being in order to do so I believe you would have to provide the spell in question at the proposed level of the staff. So still doable via scrolls or another caster possibly some other way but AFAIK you can not create a caster level 20 staff without provided caster level 20 magic... Reasoning being that Staves cast at either the level of the wielder OR the CL of the staff whichever is higher


I would have thought you needed to be able to cast the spell at level, but Staff of Power is CL15 and I don’t see any reason or indication an 11th level wizard couldn’t make it. So I’m shifting my view on that. But as CRB quote, scrolls etc are maxed at caster CL. So no CL40 scrolls of battering blast.


A witch coven could do a scroll of Ice Spears at CL40.

Need a lot of coven helpers for a lot of days....

/cevah


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Huh, I didn't think this would ever be relitigated again given the amount of coverage the topic already has on the forum, in the FAQ, in various dev posts, and so on.

1. Character level is not designed to be a significant gate to magic item crafting in Pathfinder. The designed gates are gold, time, and crafting feats, with the latter being the closest thing to a level gate the rules have built-in.

2. I'm not convinced that "the enhancement bonus level prerequisite is not in the field, ergo it doesn't follow the prerequisite rules" holds water from either a RAW or RAI standpoint. The text indicating that there's a caster level prerequisite for enhancement bonuses does exactly what it says it does--it introduces a prerequisite where one normally does not exist. That doesn't change the fact that there's a universal, overriding statement on what can and cannot be circumvented via a +5 to the skill check DC. A specific exception would have to explicit address that override, and the caster level prerequisite for enhancement bonuses doesn't have such text.

Of course, that takes us to the giant bold red text that should be printed over all of the RAW, which is that

3. The GM can--and, indeed, should--rein in whatever they feel is necessary to keep the game running smoothly. If the existing gold-and-time levers aren't sufficient to keep players from crafting things that one feels shouldn't be present in the game, then drop the fiat hammer on it. Just make sure the players know--before they take the feat--that they can't, e.g., craft a +2 longsword at less than 6th level.

(Aside: The last game I played in, the GM decided that CL listings on items were required and that such requirements could not be circumvented. Not being able to make a freaking feather token until 12th level is frustrating, but it was his game to run.)

Liberty's Edge

FAQ wrote:

Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?

As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.

So you can make a weapon or armor with whatever CL you want, the only problem is what is the DC.

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