Crafting for Profit


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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In my last campaign, for a long time the crafter was an NPC. He charged exactly 50%. But later the NPC was no longer able to craft (story reasons), one of the players took over crafting and charged 60%. Though by then, most of us were fully equipped so it didn't matter much.

And while it might not be pertinent, my character in that campaign ended up with the biggest amount of cash in the entire kingdom. I went to ask for an item to be crafted and the GM said I couldn't afford it. I told him how much I had, which at the time was about 700k. He went "How the heck did you get 700k?!" Easy. I hadn't been spending it. It was pretty funny because he had been the one throwing gold at us for so long but couldn't figure out why I had so much. The other players had to remind him. When the campaign ended, my character had over 10 mil in cash just because the spending needs were a lot less than the other characters.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
thejeff wrote:


And he's charging extra for his services, as opposed to contributing them for free like non-crafters are expected to do. Unlike them, he's profiting from the people who are risking their lives next to him.

The usual, false, argument that equates the time spent adventuring to the time spent while non-adventuring.

If I have a wife at home you don't get a share of her because we adventure together.


In what deranged head space is sharing your wife in the same frickin convwraation as the rest of this? Please keep such non-sense out of here, we are all better than that.


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Ryan Freire wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:


GMs have been trying to "keep the balance" between martials and casters since the dawn of time. you cant keep balance between players, some players are frankly more mechanicallyadept, playing a stronger class or are simply better built.

Or have three times as much gear. :)

And are "just better built" by exploiting crafting rules and their fellow players to gain a mechanical advantage.

Or yknow, are a martial built by someone who knows what they're doing vs an illusion focused sorcerer or poorly built monk.

Is your argument that because the party might alright be imperfectly balanced we should be fine making it worse?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
LordKailas wrote:
So, everyone has an equal share of the loot via draconian wealth distribution. No one gets the magic item unless they can "pay" for it.

In most of the groups with which I play, we go for equal distribution of wealth, but you can borrow from future shares, and some item is brought as "party loot" as it is useful for the whole party and isn't particularly useful for a single party member. We buy or craft wands of CLW from party founds, even if some character uses them way more than others it is only compensation for the damage they incur while adventuring.

Most of the time the crafters ask 60% of the sale price for crafted items and no one has problems with that.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
thejeff wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:


GMs have been trying to "keep the balance" between martials and casters since the dawn of time. you cant keep balance between players, some players are frankly more mechanicallyadept, playing a stronger class or are simply better built.

Or have three times as much gear. :)

And are "just better built" by exploiting crafting rules and their fellow players to gain a mechanical advantage.

Do you know that having an item worth twice than a similar item is about a +1 difference (or equivalent)? I think you as you have already participated to this kind of discussion.

Let's make an example:
Level 10 characters, WBL 62,000
+2 armor - 4,000
+2 weapon - 8,000
+1 back up weapon - 2,000
+2 ring - 8.000
+3 cloak - 9.000
+2 amulet of natural armor - 8,000
stat belt/circlet, +2 to main stat - 4,000
stat belt/circlet, +2 to secondary stat stat - 4,000
47,000 gp, the other 15,000 are miscellaneous stuff e some found for Raise dead.

YMMV but that is a passable set of equipment.

Same guy, but he is a rich crafter that has sold so much stuff to the other characters that has got double WBL:
Level 10 characters, WBL 144,000
+3 armor - 9,000 +1 to AC
+3 weapon - 18,000 +1 to hit and damage
+1 back up weapon - 2,000
+3 ring - 18.000 +1 to AC
+4 cloak - 16.000 +1 to saves
+3 amulet of natural armor - 18,000 +1 AC
stat belt/circlet, +4 to main stat - 16,000 +2 to a characteristic
stat belt/circlet, +2 to secondary stat stat - 4,000
101,000 gp, the other 41,000 are miscellaneous stuff e some found for Raise dead.

Stronger? Yes, +3 point of AC, +1 to hit and damage, +1 to saves and +2 to a characteristic. But the price of that, probably, is two feats, with only one his market will be more restricted.
There are plenty of builds that with two feats will get something as useful.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Java Man wrote:
In what deranged head space is sharing your wife in the same frickin convwraation as the rest of this? Please keep such non-sense out of here, we are all better than that.

In the one where "Your free time is mine".


Wow, okay, um... I suppose there isn't much point in my continuing here.


Java Man wrote:
Wow, okay, um... I suppose there isn't much point in my continuing here.

Seconded. o_O See you next thread, folks.


Leitner wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:


GMs have been trying to "keep the balance" between martials and casters since the dawn of time. you cant keep balance between players, some players are frankly more mechanicallyadept, playing a stronger class or are simply better built.

Or have three times as much gear. :)

And are "just better built" by exploiting crafting rules and their fellow players to gain a mechanical advantage.

Or yknow, are a martial built by someone who knows what they're doing vs an illusion focused sorcerer or poorly built monk.
Is your argument that because the party might alright be imperfectly balanced we should be fine making it worse?

No my argument is that balancing within the party is a specious argument on its face. You cant balance within the party, and more magic items on a caster isn't going to make the balance significantly worse.

In fact that more magic items on the non casters improve the non caster far far more than the more magic items on the caster improve the caster given that any class that relies on weapon damage to engage in combat already has a higher reliance on magic items.


So I haven't seen this point brought up yet. If I make a crafter and I craft everyone's equipment I have suddenly doubled expected wealth by level for the entire party. This means we can now as a group take on much stronger challenges get better rewards etc. If I do this with no additional reward I am an awesome guy... I am also likely the weakest link on the team in any given scenario since I gave up my feats and skills in order to make everyone stronger by paying half of the cost of their gear. Now I get to watch the Archer use his really cool bow and shoot someone in the face that would normally laugh at him or the wizard throw that extra spell when they should be out because they have the Pearl of power I made them. Let me say that again... I get to watch. Because my biggest contribution took place at feat selection. I don't get to be the guy who saves the day because compared to the monsters that I helped turn you into I'm nothing but part of your backstory. Crafters shouldn't demand to get paid, because they shouldn't have to. Crafting isn't their job,it isn't a function of their class it was something they gave up direct combat power to be able to do. Pay your Crafters if they want to be payed... If they don't want to be payed explain to them that if you all have equal wealth they are the weakest link in the party for their choices and pay them anyway.


Casters give up 1 feat to craft 1 type of magic item. Non-casters give up 2 feats to craft magic items. How much is 1 feat worth?

+1 to hit, or +2 to damage, and occasionally something really awesome that makes your character tick. But generally, about the equivellent of a +1 to hit or +2 to damage or +3 to a skill, or +2 to two skills.

If you aren't gimping your build by selecting crafting feats when you are still working towards your feat goals, you're giving up an amount of power that should be overcome by the amount your items will make up for it. Double the value of items you get is about the same as what a feat will give you.

And consequently, the only way to get a real advantage over just taking a feat is to use those feats to benefit the rest of your party. Now you get to keep the relative parity of trading a +1 in feats for a +1 in gear, and you get to buff your party with +1 to their gear.

And if that doesn't make sense to you, then you obviously hate the idea of the bard, haste, and prayer.


I'm not saying I'm gimping my build by being a crafter. I'm saying that if I craft all of your gear for half price you are getting the same benefits from my feat as I am this is going to give you my feat on top of yours thus I am a feat weaker than the rest of the party who didn't take a crafting feat


Basically, this thread is a reenactment of the cold war...
The Capitalist "PROFIT!" vs the Communist "FOR THE PARTY!"

IRL, the question will not even be ask by 90% of the player. As said before, IRL, if a friend can craft you something, you tend to pay him more than the simple material cost. ^^
(Even if, sometimes, the cost is a few beers)

Edit: For the one that say that if crafter make other pay for they work then the healer should do too, just add up the "cost" of the typical day of adventuring to see how much each class "officially" bring to the table in term of gold value :3

Also, a Wizard mercenary don't make you pay each individual spell cast, do they? It's a package ^^


Screaminjim wrote:
I'm not saying I'm gimping my build by being a crafter. I'm saying that if I craft all of your gear for half price you are getting the same benefits from my feat as I am this is going to give you my feat on top of yours thus I am a feat weaker than the rest of the party who didn't take a crafting feat

It's called a support role. (Or a partial support role, since it's likely just a feat or two, not the whole build.)

Not fundamentally different than casting spells to buff others in the party or healing or bard song or any of a dozen other ways to play support. Plus, you don't even have to waste actions in combat.

Watching "the Archer use his really cool bow and shoot someone in the face that would normally laugh at him" isn't really any different than watching the Archer drop the enemy with his last attack from the Haste you cast on him.


Screaminjim wrote:
I'm not saying I'm gimping my build by being a crafter. I'm saying that if I craft all of your gear for half price you are getting the same benefits from my feat as I am this is going to give you my feat on top of yours thus I am a feat weaker than the rest of the party who didn't take a crafting feat

Well, can't imagine you'd ever want to take a feat like lingering performance or some such. Besides which as the crafter you still do gain benefits. Namely deciding what gets crafted when. In a campaign with unlimited downtime this might not be relevant. But if you are on some form of time crunch and can only make 1-2 items before the next big fight you are in the excellent position to make yours first.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Lingering Performance is used in combat. Craft Wondrous Item not so much.


Rysky wrote:
Lingering Performance is used in combat. Craft Wondrous Item not so much.

So? The items you craft are useful in combat. That's why you take the feat and how you support the party. It's a support role feat, whether you ever say "I use <Feat Name>" during combat or not. It's a part of what you bring to the table.


Registered just to post here, and ask this:do the craft feats replace the need for craft checks, or does everyone just handwave the crafting over the downtime, and ignore all the 'ruined half of the raw components, buy more to try again' craft checks?


Creating magic items still requires skill checks; by RAW the DCs are typically a bit on the low side though.


SuperJedi224 wrote:
Creating magic items still requires skill checks; by RAW the DCs are typically a bit on the low side though.

Got it. With my luck on rolls, though, I would still occasionally have to charge 300%.


I grok do u wrote:
SuperJedi224 wrote:
Creating magic items still requires skill checks; by RAW the DCs are typically a bit on the low side though.
Got it. With my luck on rolls, though, I would still occasionally have to charge 300%.

They require either a spellcraft check or an appropriate craft check (Armorsmithing, jewelry,etc) but that isn't necessarily to create the nonmagical item You can just buy a masterwork item and enchant it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Lingering Performance is used in combat. Craft Wondrous Item not so much.
So? The items you craft are useful in combat. That's why you take the feat and how you support the party. It's a support role feat, whether you ever say "I use <Feat Name>" during combat or not. It's a part of what you bring to the table.

Doesn’t change the fact that it’s not a feat used in combat, unlike metamagic, and thus a completely different feeling for the player.


I grok do u wrote:
SuperJedi224 wrote:
Creating magic items still requires skill checks; by RAW the DCs are typically a bit on the low side though.
Got it. With my luck on rolls, though, I would still occasionally have to charge 300%.

Usually when people craft they Take 10. That goes for making mundane items as well as magical gear.

Given the Spellcraft or Craft DCs for crafting magic items, usually a properly built crafter can easily hit the necessary DC by Taking 10, even when adding +5 to the DC in order to accelerate their crafting so they double their daily progress on making magic items.

If your GM doesn't allow you to Take 10 when crafting, then you need to talk to them directly. Odds are good that they're being passive-aggressive to some extent and really just don't want anyone doing any (magic item) crafting in their games.

In such a case, the best case scenario is you convince them to let you take another feat instead.


Leitner wrote:
Screaminjim wrote:
I'm not saying I'm gimping my build by being a crafter. I'm saying that if I craft all of your gear for half price you are getting the same benefits from my feat as I am this is going to give you my feat on top of yours thus I am a feat weaker than the rest of the party who didn't take a crafting feat
Well, can't imagine you'd ever want to take a feat like lingering performance or some such. Besides which as the crafter you still do gain benefits. Namely deciding what gets crafted when. In a campaign with unlimited downtime this might not be relevant. But if you are on some form of time crunch and can only make 1-2 items before the next big fight you are in the excellent position to make yours first.

I actually love playing support characters so your assumptions are off base my point was and still is when I take a crafting feat and and I craft my gear with it I get a feats worth of benefits which allows me to be on par with the rest of the party. If I then give the entire party that same benefit as a group we are stronger but I am now weaker than everyone else when we have to fight something so because I did the right thing and contributed my abilities I am a glorified henchman.

To make this fair the rest of the party (as a group not individually) should contribute something of equal value back to me. Not so I am stronger than they are but to put me back on a level playing field with them. When I craft you a +1 long-sword for 1315 gp I didnt TAKE 100 gold out of your pocket I put 900 gold into it.

You want to keep things 'fair' if a party of 4 gets 1000 gold worth of treasure (after expenses are accounted for), each gets 250gp because it was the effort of the group that got it and you split it evenly. That same party gets another 1000 gp in the form of the crafter making you an item for half price and you didnt even stop to think maybe the rest of the party is entitled to some of that the reality is if you dont want to pay the crafter using the argument it is his contribution to the party Im fine with that... you just got 2k worth of 'party treasure' reimburse the partys expenses (1000 Gold)and split the rest of the treasure with the party now your 2k sword cost you 1750 and the other 3 members each get their cut of 250 gp of the parties profits

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
I grok do u wrote:
SuperJedi224 wrote:
Creating magic items still requires skill checks; by RAW the DCs are typically a bit on the low side though.
Got it. With my luck on rolls, though, I would still occasionally have to charge 300%.

You can take 10. With a DC of 5+CL of the item, if you are a member of a class that has spellcraft as a class skill (almost all spellcasters) and keep the skill maximized, you have a modified skill bonus of 3+your character level (plus an eventual intelligence bonus).

So your minimum result is 13+character level. You can make items with a caster level 8 point higher than your character level without any problem.

If you instead use a Craft or Profession skill, you can use masterwork tools and get a further +2.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Meirril wrote:

Casters give up 1 feat to craft 1 type of magic item. Non-casters give up 2 feats to craft magic items. How much is 1 feat worth?

+1 to hit, or +2 to damage, and occasionally something really awesome that makes your character tick. But generally, about the equivellent of a +1 to hit or +2 to damage or +3 to a skill, or +2 to two skills.

If you aren't gimping your build by selecting crafting feats when you are still working towards your feat goals, you're giving up an amount of power that should be overcome by the amount your items will make up for it. Double the value of items you get is about the same as what a feat will give you.

And consequently, the only way to get a real advantage over just taking a feat is to use those feats to benefit the rest of your party. Now you get to keep the relative parity of trading a +1 in feats for a +1 in gear, and you get to buff your party with +1 to their gear.

And if that doesn't make sense to you, then you obviously hate the idea of the bard, haste, and prayer.

Unless that feat is worth up to +12/+18 to damage (power attack, deadly aim, etc.), 1 extra attack when making a full attack (any of the feat of the two weapon combat after the first), forcing a target into making 2 saves against a spell and so on.

Saying that a feat is worth "generally, about the equivellent of a +1 to hit or +2 to damage or +3 to a skill, or +2 to two skills" is extremly reductive.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Meirril wrote:

Casters give up 1 feat to craft 1 type of magic item. Non-casters give up 2 feats to craft magic items. How much is 1 feat worth?

+1 to hit, or +2 to damage, and occasionally something really awesome that makes your character tick. But generally, about the equivellent of a +1 to hit or +2 to damage or +3 to a skill, or +2 to two skills.

If you aren't gimping your build by selecting crafting feats when you are still working towards your feat goals, you're giving up an amount of power that should be overcome by the amount your items will make up for it. Double the value of items you get is about the same as what a feat will give you.

And consequently, the only way to get a real advantage over just taking a feat is to use those feats to benefit the rest of your party. Now you get to keep the relative parity of trading a +1 in feats for a +1 in gear, and you get to buff your party with +1 to their gear.

And if that doesn't make sense to you, then you obviously hate the idea of the bard, haste, and prayer.

Unless that feat is worth up to +12/+18 to damage (power attack, deadly aim, etc.), 1 extra attack when making a full attack (any of the feat of the two weapon combat after the first), forcing a target into making 2 saves against a spell and so on.

Saying that a feat is worth "generally, about the equivellent of a +1 to hit or +2 to damage or +3 to a skill, or +2 to two skills" is extremly reductive.

You did read the entire sentence you're 'quoting', right? Because I did mention the occasional feat does something awesome? No? No. Apparently you glossed over that.

Though your example is a net zero on my chart. You take a -1 to hit for every +2 to damage, net 0 feat that scales with your level. When you can hit stuff reliably with a -6 to hit, it is great. And then you run into those guys you can't hit on your first attack if you use power attack so you get no benefit from your feat. Not saying power attack and deadly aim are bad feats, just saying they aren't pure awesome. The drawbacks are real.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Meirril wrote:


You did read the entire sentence you're 'quoting', right? Because I did mention the occasional feat does something awesome? No? No. Apparently you glossed over that.

Though your example is a net zero on my chart. You take a -1 to hit for every +2 to damage, net 0 feat that scales with your level. When you can hit stuff reliably with a -6 to hit, it is great. And then you run into those guys you can't hit on your first attack if you use power attack so you get no benefit from your feat. Not saying power attack and deadly aim are bad...

Yes, I read your whole post. It sum as "a feat is worth a +1 or +2, unless it one of the plethora of feats that are worth much more".

Guess what? People generally take the feats with the highest benefits, not the weakest one.

Power attack is worth 0?!?
Unless it makes the difference between hitting rolling extremely high numbers on the d20 (generally in the 18-19 range) and hitting with only a 20, mathematically power attack gives a damage advantage.
When you get multiple attacks there are levels where it is less good, but it is never a 0 worth feat.

If you get Furious focus the two feat combo decome even better.


I'm currently playing an Enchanter (Arcanist) and I'm charging my party 80% (or as my character would say offering a 20% discount) well above what most other people in this thread have said they are marking their prices up and here is why I think it's perfectly reasonable.

It's different than charging for a healing spell or any other spell for that matter. I am not going to charge the party for a casting of haste or any other normal day to day adventuring spell just like our parties cleric isn't going to charge me for healing it makes no sense. Comparing charging for healing spells to charging to make a belt of con +2 is comparing apples to oranges.

Being and Enchanter is EXPENSIVE! I brought my character in at 6th level and spent 10k of my starting wealth on scrolls to scribe into my spell books. A significant portion of the extra wealth an Enchanter gets goes back into the business to make sure you have the spells to make items people want. I'm also planning on making items that make me a better Enchanter such as Gloves of Elvenkind and a Figurine of the Dwarven Forge. The majority of spells in my spell book are ones I'm never likely to cast but are common spells for making items other people want.

Paying for my time. Down time is the biggest cost (other than gold and the feats) for making magic items. Every day I spend making an item for a party member is a day I'm not using to make an item my character wants or needs and that's where the real cost comes in. If a character wants continual flame cast on something I'm just going to ask for the cost of the expensive material component not payment for casting it or expending a spell slot because it doesn't take a significant amount of my time to do.

Most importantly it's in character. My character has been a traveling Enchanter for 25 years. If you do something for a living, you don't just do it for free. You need to think about the character of they were a real person in the situation. Sure you might do a deeper discount or break even job occasionally in the right circumstances but if you have spent years investing your time and energy into a niche skill you want to see a return on that investment as a realistic person.


Eaghen- wrote:
What are your thoughts about a player who charges other players a mark up to craft magic items?

I think the handwaving downtime is potentially a bigger problem.

But to answer the actual question, there are two (potential) problems here: WBL imbalance, and player dynamics.
Player dynamics come down to the players. Are they going to be upset that the other player is charging them for use of this feat? If they think of the game as a team game where we don't try and get one over our teammates, they might be rather upset. Especially if this is the one instance where somehow the crafter thinks it's okay. Will the crafter player get upset if another player starts charging them for buff spells? If their character is KO, and instead of healing them the other players have their characters wake up the crafter character with smelling salts and present a several thousand gold bill for healing while the crafter is still bleeding out, will that seem unreasonable to the player? After all, if you're good at healing you shouldn't do it for free, and the person who is bleeding out right now is in a very weak negotiating position.
If it's one for all and all for one, which is how many people like to play, then charging money to borrow a feat is not okay. Of course, other people don't mind at all. And some people mind in some games and not in others - capitalism might be more popular in games that aren't focused on teamwork with friends.

WBL imbalance can also be a pretty big deal. But consider it in the context of class tiers. Sure, the crafter is getting ahead, but if they were playing a weak class to start with, that's much less of a big deal than if they were playing a wizard, cleric, or arcanist.

The counterpoints of "realism!" and "it's what my character would do!" have been presented in the thread. Respectfully, these are not more important than game balance and player dynamics, since the former can wreck a game and the latter can wreck a gaming group.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Lucky, why you guys that argue about requiring some compensation use that false argument where you equate time spent while adventuring to time spent during downtime?

While adventuring I will cure the other party members, cast buff spells, take the front line to defend them and so on.

During downtime, I will be really annoyed if someone comes every day to ask me to heal a scratch, cure venereal disease, cast remove poison to remove the alcohol he drunk so he will not suffer a hangover, cast water walking and water breathing so he will be more successful while fishing for sport, use my sunder feat to cut wood for his fireplace and so on.

For me, this is the same thing. A guy is asking me to spend my downtime for him, without giving anything back.

I ask 60% of the market price. The 10% above the production cost is my remuneration for the work.
If what I make is a gift I for a friend don't ask anything, not even the production cost, but I decide when I make a gift and what it is and then give it to the recipient.
If instead, it is an order from a customer, he pays for it.

Maybe the problem is that you see your characters only as a set of stats on paper and for you guys what happen outside of adventuring is nonexistent, but for me, they are characters, with a personality and interests outside of adventuring.


Quoth13 wrote:
Being and Enchanter is EXPENSIVE! I brought my character in at 6th level and spent 10k of my starting wealth on scrolls to scribe into my spell books.

If you had to pay for scrolls of every spell, then you were already being nickel-and-dime'd by your GM anyway.


Quoth13 wrote:


Being and Enchanter is EXPENSIVE! I brought my character in at 6th level and spent 10k of my starting wealth on scrolls to scribe into my spell books.

That isn't the normal way of doing things. If you play from first up generally speaking you find spellbooks among the loot as you play. When you are creating a higher level character you should be able to pay 1.5 times the scribbing cost as outlined in the section on spellbooks.

Heck, you should be able to find spellcasters selling the rights to copy spells as well. As a GM I've had temples of Nethys that offer copy rights to anyone.

You can also ask about buying spellbooks. Some of them comes with memorization rituals that are quite powerful. While you are bound to get some duplicate spells, this is just the cost of doing business when you are interested in buying an entire book. Also you can resell the book for half when you are done.

All of these options are way cheaper than buying scrolls.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Lucky, why you guys that argue about requiring some compensation use that false argument where you equate time spent while adventuring to time spent during downtime?

Sigh...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Leitner wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Lucky, why you guys that argue about requiring some compensation use that false argument where you equate time spent while adventuring to time spent during downtime?

Sigh...
Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Will the crafter player get upset if another player starts charging them for buff spells?

You guys use that constantly: So you aren't confronting actions while adventuring with action during downtime and saying it is the same?

If I ask you to cast buffing spells to win an archery contest totally unrelated to our adventures I will not surprised if you ask some compensation, be it a few beers, lunch or some coins. I will be surprised if it is the full market price, but I will not ask you to do it for free.

This idea that someone should spend his free time for free to me seems the relationship between Biff Tannen and George McFly at the start of Back to the future.


Improving the enchantments on ADVENTURING gear is absolutely, 100% related to whatever common goal the party has in adventuring together, the archery tournament is a false analogy (and frankly one I thpught you were wise enough not to make.)

And Biff would have made McFly pay the cost and do the work, as an aside. And those two weren't routinely trusting their lives in the other's abilities and gear.


Java Man wrote:

Improving the enchantments on ADVENTURING gear is absolutely, 100% related to whatever common goal the party has in adventuring together, the archery tournament is a false analogy (and frankly one I thpught you were wise enough not to make.)

And Biff would have made McFly pay the cost and do the work, as an aside. And those two weren't routinely trusting their lives in the other's abilities and gear.

I mean...too bad...my time is my time and if the player doesn't like a 25% break he can go elsewhere and pay full price.


Java Man wrote:

Improving the enchantments on ADVENTURING gear is absolutely, 100% related to whatever common goal the party has in adventuring together, the archery tournament is a false analogy (and frankly one I thpught you were wise enough not to make.)

The same person who equated the argument to sleeping with his NPC wife because heck everyone shares downtime resources? I wouldn't give so much credit.

And I guess "If it's what my character would do" your hands are clearly tied. Not much alternative there I'm afraid.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Leitner wrote:
Java Man wrote:

Improving the enchantments on ADVENTURING gear is absolutely, 100% related to whatever common goal the party has in adventuring together, the archery tournament is a false analogy (and frankly one I thpught you were wise enough not to make.)

The same person who equated the argument to sleeping with his NPC wife because heck everyone shares downtime resources? I wouldn't give so much credit.

And I guess "If it's what my character would do" your hands are clearly tied. Not much alternative there I'm afraid.

So you would work for another character for free, cutting firewood, drawing water and doing other menial works for "friendship" without compensation?


Diego Rossi wrote:


So you would work for another character for free, cutting firewood, drawing water and doing other menial works for "friendship" without compensation?

Me personally? Maybe, would depend on the circumstances. I've helped friends move, paint some minis, and other such tasks for free*

But I am also not situated in life or death scenarios every day where helping someone move their fridge today could keep me alive tomorrow. I were, then yeah, I might be willing to haul some furniture for free.

None of this is, however, very relevant. The point that has been made over and over again is that this is a balance issue. Every person at the table should be coming with a character that will provide a great gaming experience for everyone. Coming in with a thief that steals from the party because "that's what my character would do" is probably fine at some tables. But I'd hazard a guess it wouldn't fly for many.

Lets take a random party of level 10 characters each with their 62k WBL. Using the 70% figure mentioned in the OP. One character takes craft wonderous items and makes 25%(This number is intentionally low considering most slots are wonderous items including belts, headbands, cloaks, and amulets) of each characters gear.

So each party member hands you 15k(rounding) to craft with. You pocket 5k(rounding again) of it and use the other 10k to craft them 20k worth of gear. All well and good, they've made money out of the deal and are now each sitting on 67k WBL.

Now we get to you. You've got your 62k starting and 15k crafting profits. We craft the same 25% of our now 77k gold for 19k. You aren't going to charge yourself 70% and just throw 20% of the money into the ether. So you get a full 38k worth of gear out of this.

So now you are sitting on 96k gold to each other party members 67k gold. And the imbalance is only going to get worse if you continue on. Sure it cost you a feat, but there are plenty of ioun stones, or +1 training daggers you can use to gain that back for a fraction of the profits you've made.

From here you have a few options.

1. Ignore it. If your GM and Players don't see a problem with this imbalance then great. Game on.

2. The GM sees it as a problem and adjusts wealth accordingly. Maybe they drop more weapons and armor and fewer metamagic rods or whatever your character needs to keep the players in line. This works, but from a GM perspective I'd honestly rather not have to bother. And from a player perspective why go to the effort if you'll end up in the same place.

3. The players see it as a problem and each decide to take the crafting feats themselves. This is not necessarily unfair, but it does make life easier for your arcanists, clerics, druids, etc than your fighters, swashbucklers, rogues, etc. And you also end up with a weaker party than you would if those characters had taken different feats.

As I said in my response on the previous page whether all of this is a problem or not really depends. If your GM is pretty strict with downtime and you can't manage a whole lot of crafting, it would probably never be an issue. Ditto if you were charging something like 55%, or spending the excess money on something for the entire party like my flagship example in Skulls&Shackles.

But you could also take far more extreme examples and end up with staggering amount more money than any other party member. And taking the stance that certain classes should have more money than others is similarly problematic. The fact is that a fighter does not have so readily available source of income during their downtime. If they had a feat that said "During downtime you can hire out to the local adventurers guild and slay goblins for X hundreds of GP per day" then it would be much less of an issue.

*Usually pizza or something is provided, but if all your character wants out of the magic item crafting is a ration, I don't think we are really hitting balance issue territory.


Except again...magic items help the spellcaster (Which most item crafters are) far less than they help martials.

Comparing them to a thief that steals from the party is ridiculous given that they're actually increasing the party's total wealth.


Ryan Freire wrote:

Except again...magic items help the spellcaster (Which most item crafters are) far less than they help martials.

Comparing them to a thief that steals from the party is ridiculous given that they're actually increasing the party's total wealth.

Could you rephrase the first portion of your statement. I am at a loss to figure out why you mean by it. Obviously magic items help spellcasters, but saying they help martials less? I mean, you want to dump a naked level 20 sorcerer and a naked level 20 fighter into an arena and I know which one I'd rather bet on. A martial without magic items is going to quickly going to be literally useless against pretty much anything(Slight exception to the monk). Where as a lot of casters can get by with comparatively little. They shouldn't have to, but they could.

As for your second point, well, turns out it isn't. The behavior would be ridiculous of course. But bringing a character to the table that sucks the fun out for others is a huge faux-pas around my table. Maybe yours is different.

EDIT: I see I've misread your post. Although I am still confused by it. You agree that casters don't need magic items as much. And because of that it doesn't unbalance the game to have them with 50% more money than the rest of the party?

EDIT2: And to be perfectly honest, if you believe the money going to the martials helps the party out more than the spellcasters, why would you even charge them additional money in the first place? Would you not be literally be harming your characters chances of survival in that case?


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no, magic items help martials more than they help casters.

"magic items help the spellcaster far less than they help martials."

And since you brought up edit2, and the whole argument is based in metagaming (as the odds of a martial with no spellcraft or knowledge arcana or likely appraise skill knowing the costs involved in crafting a magic item) All we need to ensure my characters survival is average wealth by level. Crafting gives us more, PLUS allows my crafter to pursue his own goals independent of the party, be that more spells, crafting based items that don't affect adventure survivability directly, or buying buildings and land.

The day you demonstrate how getting more magic items than you would have cheaper sucks the fun out of a game is the day i acknowledge that point though.

Its just as easy to treat it as a personal feat and do no crafting for party members at all.


Yeah, the edit2 would be based on metagaming. It is what I would argue is the good kind of metagaming. That being said, a can't imagine it takes a 26 int genius wizard to realize they have higher odds of survival if their front line has higher AC and takes all the hits up front.

And does your character only need average WBL to survive? Maybe. If the GM is adjusting for the power level of the party to keep things interesting you might not. Higher wealth does yield a higher CR score in NPCs. For obvious reasons it means players can tackle challenges they might not have been able to otherwise.

The example from earlier where 3 party members have an additional 5k and one has an additional 34k(again, a fairly tame example) very well might require a GM to adjust the CR upward. 5k might get your martials in the party a +1 enhancement on their weapon or armor. But 34k would buy something like an empowered metamagic rod.

So if the GM feels they needs to beef up the encounters to deal with this, your character is very likely going to be comparatively weaker than it would have been. Can playing a fun character be weak? Of course it can. One of my favorite characters I've ever played was a chained rogue who went all in on sleight of hand bonuses. Wasn't the best in combat, but I signed up for that. If you did not sign up for it, then yeah, it could very easily be less fun.

And to your final point, obviously you could treat it as a personal feat and do no crafting for the party. It sounds like a dick move, but the irony is as has been shown over and over and over again in this thread, that actual ends up less lopsided. Using the exact above example but you only craft yourself 25% bonus gold, each party member ends up with 62k gold except you who ends up with 77.5k.


Its not an internal competition unfortunately. In party balance only matters inasmuch as people do or dont have fun.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Its not an internal competition unfortunately. In party balance only matters inasmuch as people do or dont have fun.

Have you ever been in a game where someone at the table is blatantly being favored by the GM? While the party is finding +2 items, a Holy Avenger crops up. After heading to a temple everybody got a few potions and some coins, but somehow the Paladin walks out with a +3 Adamantine Plate Mail. You report to the Duke and he throws a feast to celebrate your groups latest accomplishment. Out of nowhere the Duke announces the Paladin is engaged to his daughter and he's now wearing the broach the daughter was wearing. Turns out it is a +5 resistance item that doesn't take a slot, while the next best resist item is a +3 cloak. And the next time you find loot there is a really cool cloak that nobody wants because they aren't going to give up their cloak of resistance.

Now imagine it isn't the GM doing this. Imagine the party wizard is 'generously helping you' by providing a 25% discount on magic items. While you're scraping together the funds for a +3 cloak of resistance, a +2 amulet of natural armor, and a +2 belt the Wizard has a +6 headband, a +6 belt, and a +5 cloak. All thanks to his 'generous' discount and all the 'help' he has provided.

Do you think maybe, just maybe someone else at the table isn't enjoying this?


I think the jealous member is the problem and if they don't enjoy it that much they can play a class that can take creation feats.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Every class can take creation feats.
A non-spellcaster that takes Craft (jewelry) can make a large number of wondrous magic items.

The arguments that it "unbalance the group" and "downtime has no cost" are based on the assumption that there is unlimited or almost unlimited downtime. And that the other party members are doing nothing during downtime.

Let's take Leitner example:

Quote:

Lets take a random party of level 10 characters each with their 62k WBL. Using the 70% figure mentioned in the OP. One character takes craft wonderous items and makes 25%(This number is intentionally low considering most slots are wonderous items including belts, headbands, cloaks, and amulets) of each characters gear.

So each party member hands you 15k(rounding) to craft with. You pocket 5k(rounding again) of it and use the other 10k to craft them 20k worth of gear. All well and good, they've made money out of the deal and are now each sitting on 67k WBL.

Now we get to you. You've got your 62k starting and 15k crafting profits. We craft the same 25% of our now 77k gold for 19k. You aren't going to charge yourself 70% and just throw 20% of the money into the ether. So you get a full 38k worth of gear out of this. where "3 party members have an additional 5k and one has an additional 34k.

How many days of work are required to make the stuff?

15K of cost, 70% os sale price = 21-25 days of work, 12-15 working at double speed (you can make only one item in a day, and even if you can make 2,000 gp of stuff in a day, if it cost 2,100 gp or other fractional values above a multiplier of 2,000, it eat a day of work).
48-60 days to make all the orders.
Then there the crafter items. To make 34K of items, at double speed, he needs 17-20 days.

How many APs beside Kingmaker give you 65-80 free days at 10th level? Or even calculating all the free time with access to the needed materials between level 3 and 10?

But the crafter can work while adventuring, right? Now we are speaking of 260-320 days. Most APs are already concluded in that timespan.

Then there is this "little" detail: "Creating Wondrous Items
To create a wondrous item, a character usually needs some sort of equipment or tools to work on the item."
Now our crafter, while adventuring, is hauling all the equipment needed to work on several kinds of items, from thread and needles to blacksmith tools, leatherworking tools, jewelry tools, woodworking tools, etc. and several thousand of gp of components needed to craft the required wondrous items.

Having played crafters in three different campaigns with different GMs and mastered several other campaigns with crafters, I know fairly well what they really can do if the GM doesn't handwave the time and equipment requirements.
The only one where the crafters had all the time and equipment needed was Kingmaker, but in Kingmaker the other players too had free time and a way to get more money from other activities or from adventuring while the crafter was busy.

Most of the time the crafter end with some extra money and unenhanced equipment, not with the hypothetic uber equipment.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Having played crafters in three different campaigns with different GMs and mastered several other campaigns with crafters, I know fairly well what they really can do if the GM doesn't handwave the time and equipment requirements.

So, lets talk about the RotRL AP I ran. If you read the AP it says to give the players a few weeks of downtime between each chapter. It also gives clues in each section about the start of the next chapter, and ways to get the party moving by using NPCs to point them in the correct direction when you want them to leave.

But that makes the huge assumption that the players won't be impatient and rush to the next section on the flimsiest of clues. We had two characters that insisted on moving on as soon as there was a hint of anything going on anywhere. So if they found a note, the party would be traveling. Which very much upset the person that wanted to craft.

I literally forbid them from traveling for 2 months because the roads were snowed in. Just so the characters would have some time to do character stuff.

The GM has a responsibility to look after the interests of his players. If a character has abilities but you NEVER give them an opportunity to use them, they might as well have gotten something else. Its like if a player works with your to develop a revenge background for his character and you never insert it into the game. Or a player is actively working on becoming a Living Monolith and you never introduce a NPC that can help him meet the requirements. If a player takes crafting feats you need to give them a reasonable amount of downtime. That reasonable amount of time might not be long enough to satisfy them, but 1 week here, 3 days there, and 10 days between chapters isn't too hard to work into a story.

Even when my crafting player got 2 months, he still wanted more time. His plan was crafting items for the entire party, using all of their spare cash. He didn't get everything he wanted, but he did appreciate that I made time for him. Before that he was very, very frustrated.

EDIT: also it isn't an equipment requirement. It is a workshop requirement. Then it goes on to talk about crafting while adventuring, the complete opposite of a quiet and secure workshop.

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