3 - Tomorrow Must Burn (GM Reference)


Age of Ashes

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Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

This is a spoiler-filled resource thread for GMs running the Age of Ashes Adventure Path, specifically for the third adventure, "Tomorrow Must Burn."

Grand Lodge

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I have nothing to say except that this is possibly the greatest title to any piece of fiction I've seen.
I love it so much idk why

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Yay! I've always been fond of unusual titles, like this one, "In Hell's Bright Shadow," and the like. They can be hard to get approval for, so it's always good to see folks like them.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Yay! I've always been fond of unusual titles, like this one, "In Hell's Bright Shadow," and the like. They can be hard to get approval for, so it's always good to see folks like them.

I like the atypical titles as well! Though I admit, I am utterly lost as to what "Borne by the Sun's Grace" means, even after reading that particular adventure...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Yay! I've always been fond of unusual titles, like this one, "In Hell's Bright Shadow," and the like. They can be hard to get approval for, so it's always good to see folks like them.

I don’t really see them as unusual, just cool.

Love to see more.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm really eager to see what's in this one. My plan is to see if it's possible to convert the setting of this particular adventure from Ravounel to Korvosa.

Agreed on the cool adventure name. My all time favorite is "From Hell's Heart"

Dark Archive

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Rysky wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Yay! I've always been fond of unusual titles, like this one, "In Hell's Bright Shadow," and the like. They can be hard to get approval for, so it's always good to see folks like them.

I don’t really see them as unusual, just cool.

Love to see more.

Yeah, I've never thought them as unusual either. And I'm not even native english speaker :p


How’s Ravounel look? What’s up with the Archetype?


I don’t have the world guide yet, so I’m asking blind.

Is one of my players being a hellknight likely to be a problem in Ravounel?

Liberty's Edge

Ramanujan wrote:

I don’t have the world guide yet, so I’m asking blind.

Is one of my players being a hellknight likely to be a problem in Ravounel?

I don't have the book, but if they're a good Hellknight it shouldn't be. Hellknights are definitionally supposed to support the law of whatever nation they're in, and as I understand it the villains in this chapter are breaking the laws of Ravounel.

Now, people in Ravounel may not like you overly much, but that's a somewhat separate issue.

Dark Archive

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Ramanujan wrote:

I don’t have the world guide yet, so I’m asking blind.

Is one of my players being a hellknight likely to be a problem in Ravounel?

I don't have the book, but if they're a good Hellknight it shouldn't be. Hellknights are definitionally supposed to support the law of whatever nation they're in, and as I understand it the villains in this chapter are breaking the laws of Ravounel.

Now, people in Ravounel may not like you overly much, but that's a somewhat separate issue.

? Didn't hellknights explicitly have their own law that they follow and they are just hired by different countries?

Anyway, I think its probably not issue as long as player isn't member of the hellknight order that is about capturing escaped slaves

Liberty's Edge

CorvusMask wrote:
? Didn't hellknights explicitly have their own law that they follow and they are just hired by different countries?

They certainly have their own code of laws that guides their behavior, yes. But my point is that part of that code is generally not breaking the laws of the nation you're in. That's less clear in the text than I remembered it being, but is, I think, still well supported.

They certainly respect the laws of at least Cheliax, who publicly acknowledge Ravounel and its laws as legitimate.

CorvusMask wrote:
Anyway, I think its probably not issue as long as player isn't member of the hellknight order that is about capturing escaped slaves

Even then (and there isn't really such an Order, the Order of the Chain is fugitives in general and are more sympathetic to ex-slaves than almost any other fugitives), the vast majority of slaves in Ravounel aren't escapees.

They were legally manumitted by a government that even Cheliax recognizes as legitimate. That really and profoundly makes them not the Hellknights business.

Hellknights are kind of terrible in various ways, but they aren't invested in slavery for its own sake, and certainly don't oppose manumission by legal means. They also pretty definitionally oppose kidnapping within a civilized nation in general, making them quite directly opposed to illegal slavery, whatever their opinions on the legal form.

Shadow Lodge

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Let's say Ravounel is free soil, that is, a person setting foot there is freed. Let's also say that Cheliax considers its recognized property rights enforceable everywhere in the world. Let's say that a slave escapes from Cheliax to Ravounel. A Chelish master hires a Hellknight company to recapture the slave. Whose law wins out?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The one the storywriter wants to win.

Most likely the Hellknights would try to capture them before they made it to Ravounal. Otherwise nada if they're full believers in the Measure and Chain.

Liberty's Edge

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Let's say Ravounel is free soil, that is, a person setting foot there is freed. Let's also say that Cheliax considers its recognized property rights enforceable everywhere in the world. Let's say that a slave escapes from Cheliax to Ravounel. A Chelish master hires a Hellknight company to recapture the slave. Whose law wins out?

Cheliax and Ravounel are at peace and Cheliax formally and legally acknowledges Ravounel's sovereignty. That being the case, if this were true, the Chelish slaveowner is s##$ out of luck, as his request is definitionally a violation of Chelish law as well as that of Ravounel. We have no evidence this is true of Ravounel, of course.

Now the same is not at all true of Andoran or the River Kingdoms. Slaves who get there we know actually are free by the law of Andoran or the River Kingdoms, but slavecatchers can and will hunt them down since Cheliax does not legally and formally acknowledge their sovereignty.

As for Hellknights, their attitude will depend a lot on the Hellknight's Order and even more on their own personality and particular attitude towards the law, though they're generally more likely to side with Cheliax than either Andoran or The River Kingdoms.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Dear Paizo,

When you're doing South Garund, or Sarusan, please print one communist nation, where private property is abolished, happiness is mandatory, war is peace, The Party is Everything, there's no slavery, no serfdom, no imperialism, no money, no disagreement and any idea is a good idea, except the not-happy ones. Those you push down deep inside where you'll never, ever, ever, [red angry face] EVER [pink and happy again] find them!

Sincerely
The Community


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
keftiu wrote:
How’s Ravounel look? What’s up with the Archetype?

The archetype in the book is Bellflower Tiller.


I believe the question of "can Chelaxian slave owners pursue their slaves in Ravounel" is actually a specific terms-of-peace option the Hell's Rebels players have to sort out with a diplomat, so we'll probably get a concrete answer in this book.

Shadow Lodge

Grankless wrote:
I believe the question of "can Chelaxian slave owners pursue their slaves in Ravounel" is actually a specific terms-of-peace option the Hell's Rebels players have to sort out with a diplomat, so we'll probably get a concrete answer in this book.

No it isn't. There are five terms that the AP assumes are negotiated: what percentage of its salt production Ravounel is required to sell to Cheliax; how restricted Chelish subjects are in visiting Ravounel's cultural treasure-houses; how many soldiers Ravounel is permitted to station in Menador Keep relative to Cheliax; how long Ravounel is permitted to wait before intervening militarily on the side of Cheliax; and whether Ravounel can make military alliances independent of Cheliax.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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A Chelaxian slave owner could well pursue a slave who escaped to Ravounel, but they shouldn't act surprised when their slave hunters get smashed by heroes or Silver Ravens or the Order of the Torrent or whoever. And if that happens, said slavers wouldn't find much support for recourse if they went crying to House Thrune—they'd get a "If you were a competent slaver your slaves wouldn't have escaped in the first place," rather than a "Oh my, let's help you get your property back from Ravounel."


I assume the good adventurers in Ravounel would smash Chelish slave hunters without hesitation. But what about the soldiers or law enforcement officials of Ravounel? Would they help or at least protect or tolerate the slave hunters?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Aenigma wrote:
I assume the good adventurers in Ravounel would smash Chelish slave hunters without hesitation. But what about the soldiers or law enforcement officials of Ravounel? Would they help or at least protect or tolerate the slave hunters?

They'd not help nor would they protect slave hunters. At all. They WOULD help those trying to fight against slave hunters.

Slavery is illegal in Ravounel.

Shadow Lodge

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This in a thread for an AP volume where they don't do that, because if they did there would not be a story.

The dissonance is jarring.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:

This in a thread for an AP volume where they don't do that, because if they did there would not be a story.

The dissonance is jarring.

Ah, I do get ya there. But the point is that the Scarlet Triad is being subtle and flying under the proverbial radar—at least, until this adventure begins, when some of them start going bonkers and raiding towns. The PCs are on the scene to face off against them, and the whole thing's kind of intended to be a wake-up call for the nation, which is still getting its feet under them and sorting things out.

In retrospect, it probably would have made more sense to keep the Scarlet Triad's antics subtle and covered-up, I suppose, so that they were more of a conspiracy to uncover and not so much an in-your-face group of daytime slave raiders.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It says in the opening that the governing body of Kintargo is doing what they can, but there’s a bunch of other stuff that has their hands full too.

Edit: ninjaed by the Directorsaur

Shadow Lodge

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James Jacobs wrote:
and the whole thing's kind of intended to be a wake-up call for the nation, which is still getting its feet under them and sorting things out.

By this I hope you mean a wake-up call for democratic, popular forces within the nation, as well as both aristocratic and plutocratic forces (they are not the same!) seeing in the weakness of the government an opportunity for themselves. The nation is surely not a monolithic bloc.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
and the whole thing's kind of intended to be a wake-up call for the nation, which is still getting its feet under them and sorting things out.
By this I hope you mean a wake-up call for democratic, popular forces within the nation, as well as both aristocratic and plutocratic forces (they are not the same!) seeing in the weakness of the government an opportunity for themselves. The nation is surely not a monolithic bloc.

It's barely a few years old, Ravounel. It's got a lot of things to work out, for sure.

We're not going to be doing much more with Ravounel in 2019 or 2020—if we do something more significant with it beyond that, we'll have the time and space, I hope, to explore the new nation's condition and setup with the events of Hell's Rebels AND Tomorrow Must Burn in mind.

One of the things that most intrigues me about Ravounel is to explore how a chaotic good nation can exist sandwiched between two larger and more powerful lawful evil nations. It might not make it, in other words. Which makes it a GREAT place for chaotic good PCs to rise up and become the saviors of the day.

But again, that's a topic that goes beyond one adventure, and deserves its own campaign. I'd love to explore a sequel to Hell's Rebels like this as an Adventure Path, in fact, but I doubt we'll do that anytime soon, if ever, since I'm no longer going to be developing or creating Adventure Paths (leaving that in Ron and Patricks' more than capable hands), and since there seems to be a very strong desire and interest to set Adventure Paths in regions we haven't set them in before.

Like Absalom, for example.

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:

One of the things that most intrigues me about Ravounel is to explore how a chaotic good nation can exist sandwiched between two larger and more powerful lawful evil nations. It might not make it, in other words. Which makes it a GREAT place for chaotic good PCs to rise up and become the saviors of the day.

That's a familiar story, though. It's the story of Poland vis a vis Russia and Prussia in the 18th century (and Ravounel seems to have the Golden Freedoms going by the LOWG - not even the Constitution of 1791). Kosciusko makes for a PC in this reading, and we know how that ended.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

One of the things that most intrigues me about Ravounel is to explore how a chaotic good nation can exist sandwiched between two larger and more powerful lawful evil nations. It might not make it, in other words. Which makes it a GREAT place for chaotic good PCs to rise up and become the saviors of the day.

That's a familiar story, though. It's the story of Poland vis a vis Russia and Prussia in the 18th century (and Ravounel seems to have the Golden Freedoms going by the LOWG - not even the Constitution of 1791). Kosciusko makes for a PC in this reading, and we know how that ended.

Not sure what your point here is. To a certain extent, all stories are boiled down to familiar stories.

If I nixed every story we wanted to tell because it'd been told before in another game or in a novel or in a movie or in the real world, etc.... well, I guess I'd be still be working in a life insurance call center and not working on RPGs.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

One of the things that most intrigues me about Ravounel is to explore how a chaotic good nation can exist sandwiched between two larger and more powerful lawful evil nations. It might not make it, in other words. Which makes it a GREAT place for chaotic good PCs to rise up and become the saviors of the day.

That's a familiar story, though. It's the story of Poland vis a vis Russia and Prussia in the 18th century (and Ravounel seems to have the Golden Freedoms going by the LOWG - not even the Constitution of 1791). Kosciusko makes for a PC in this reading, and we know how that ended.

Really? You have the outcomes of Paizo's upcoming adventures concerning Ravounel written down somewhere?

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:


Not sure what your point here is. To a certain extent, all stories are boiled down to familiar stories.

That it's not an interesting premise containing tension, because it can only end one way and the journey is neither heroic nor interesting on its own.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


Not sure what your point here is. To a certain extent, all stories are boiled down to familiar stories.
That it's not an interesting premise containing tension, because it can only end one way and the journey is neither heroic nor interesting on its own.

1) You're wrong.

2) You're not a writer for Paizo.
3) You're wrong.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


Not sure what your point here is. To a certain extent, all stories are boiled down to familiar stories.
That it's not an interesting premise containing tension, because it can only end one way and the journey is neither heroic nor interesting on its own.

Challenge accepted... pending an opportunity to explore this content in print, of course. Which may be a few years, or may never happen.

In either case... there's plenty of other RPGs out there that are fun to play. Perhaps one of them has more interesting stories for you?

Shadow Lodge

Rysky wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


Not sure what your point here is. To a certain extent, all stories are boiled down to familiar stories.
That it's not an interesting premise containing tension, because it can only end one way and the journey is neither heroic nor interesting on its own.

1) You're wrong.

2) You're not a writer for Paizo.
3) You're wrong.

I suppose there's always the option of poor writing.

Considering they had to pull out a BS plot contrivance to prevent things ending the obvious way and to force the preferred ending the last time they tried anything in this area, that's probably a safe bet.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Just because the stories don't play out with how you think they should (which is almost always) doesn't make it poor writing or BS.

Stop trying to map Golarion to Earth's history books.

Dark Archive

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I'm just wondering where you get the confidence where you seem to consider your opinions to be objective facts on quality of subjective arts ._.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The funny thing about the "things must end that way" argument is that if you kindly point out to z1915 that his beloved communist utopia has, without exception, ended up in tyrannical monstrous regime IRL (USSR, N. Korea, Cuba, PRC, Cambodia, etc.) he's going to argue that no, it's not how things have to end, see in case of X it went wrong because Y, but if that wouldn't happen we'd have a worker's paradise, that's not how things were *supposed* to be.


And he does this for the world with gods and magic... *Sigh*

Shadow Lodge

Gorbacz wrote:
he's going to argue that no, it's not how things have to end

You would be wrong. Things could only go the way they went.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
he's going to argue that no, it's not how things have to end
You would be wrong. Things could only go the way they went.

Not if somebody did something about the reptilian Illuminati hell-bent of turning every attempt at creating Paradise on Earth into a twisted mockery! If only some magic-wielding heroes from another reality could cross over to Earth and root out those secretive cabals...


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I just came here to post that I LOVE the maps in this volume. Not sure what new toolsets they have for generating interiors, but I very much like this colorful yet clean style.

(The sources of light being very clear will help me as a GM as well)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The Rot Grub wrote:

I just came here to post that I LOVE the maps in this volume. Not sure what new toolsets they have for generating interiors, but I very much like this colorful yet clean style.

(The sources of light being very clear will help me as a GM as well)

As far as I know, all of our cartographers use Adobe Photoshop or similar art-creation programs to create the maps. They don't use map-making software.


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Was definitely hoping the Scarlet Triad wouldn't be just out in the open hunting people for sport, twirling moustaches and cracking whips with their demon companions. That makes it tough! What makes it tougher that Laria Longroad was basically a party member and hit level 18... tougher still that the party specifically all got Leadership as a bonus feat and used it to set up the Silver Ravens as a legit organization of CG heroes filled with a couple hundred capable adventurers. So I'm going to have to lampshade and cut around and work out how exactly the squad of old heroes doesn't know about this-- or worse, if they do, why haven't they stopped them?

My group is going to make running this adventure way more work than I wanted it to be!


Ice Titan wrote:

Was definitely hoping the Scarlet Triad wouldn't be just out in the open hunting people for sport, twirling moustaches and cracking whips with their demon companions. That makes it tough! What makes it tougher that Laria Longroad was basically a party member and hit level 18... tougher still that the party specifically all got Leadership as a bonus feat and used it to set up the Silver Ravens as a legit organization of CG heroes filled with a couple hundred capable adventurers. So I'm going to have to lampshade and cut around and work out how exactly the squad of old heroes doesn't know about this-- or worse, if they do, why haven't they stopped them?

My group is going to make running this adventure way more work than I wanted it to be!

I believe the adventure mentions that the Hell's Rebels party are currently deep in the Darklands for some unknown reason, to explain away their absence.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Yeah, if Laria is 18th level in your game's canon, replace her with some other NPC and assume she's down with the other PCs from Hell's Rebels dealing with the Darklands situation.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

After the party rescues Hundy at Sunset Imports, he asks them to go to Kite Hill, Long Roads coffeehouse and Lady Docur's School for Girls. The expectation is that the party goes to them in that order, with potentially severe consequences if they do not. However, both the coffeehouse and school are much closer to Sunset Imports as Kite Hill isn't even within the city walls. If my party has a map of the city and knows the relative locations they will definitely want to go to the other locations first.

I will have to make sure to put some extra emphasis in Hundy's words to try to convey to them the importance of visiting Kite Hill first. Railroading them is what I do not want to do, of course, and if they choose a different order they will need to deal with the consequences. I think this will be tricky and I'll have to choose my words carefully when they reach this point. It will likely be close to a year before we get to there, so I look forward to seeing how other GMs and their parties deal with it in the meantime.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Fumarole wrote:

After the party rescues Hundy at Sunset Imports, he asks them to go to Kite Hill, Long Roads coffeehouse and Lady Docur's School for Girls. The expectation is that the party goes to them in that order, with potentially severe consequences if they do not. However, both the coffeehouse and school are much closer to Sunset Imports as Kite Hill isn't even within the city walls. If my party has a map of the city and knows the relative locations they will definitely want to go to the other locations first.

I will have to make sure to put some extra emphasis in Hundy's words to try to convey to them the importance of visiting Kite Hill first. Railroading them is what I do not want to do, of course, and if they choose a different order they will need to deal with the consequences. I think this will be tricky and I'll have to choose my words carefully when they reach this point. It will likely be close to a year before we get to there, so I look forward to seeing how other GMs and their parties deal with it in the meantime.

That's kind of the whole point of Hundy; to provide advice and direction for the PCs. It's not a railroad unless you force the PCs to go somewhere, but it IS a railroad if you adjust things so that no matter what order the PCs do things in, the end result is the same. If your PCs want to do these missions out of the suggested order, they certainly can, but the point is that things might end up worse off for them. In the same way in a non-railroad if the PCs go left instead of right on the forest path they have an encounter with a rune giant instead of a goblin.


This is the most interesting start of the APs so far. Gets right to business with no fluff.

Though I am liking the Cult of Cinders pillar hunting. Monsters seem scaled better for single encounters now. They can do some real damage in a short time putting pressure on healing.

Shadow Lodge

Fumarole wrote:
However, both the coffeehouse and school are much closer to Sunset Imports

I'm not sure that's the relevant calculation. From Sunset Imports the PCs can get to Kite Hill through the Greens and the Silver Gate, a far lower-traffic area than Villegre. That is, they can get to Kite Hill more quickly and with less hassle than to either Lady Docur's or Long Road's.

Dark Archive

BTW, were Lacunafex a big thing in Hell's Rebels? I know from wiki that Mialari was arcane trickster in PF 1e, but I don't remember if she is major npc from Hell's Rebels or not.

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