Evil champions?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I have a question. Will there by any character creation guide in the new edition for evil champions or what antipaladins used to be or will there only be the three good archetypes depending on their position in the law-chaos spectrum?


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I believe it was stated that the core rulebook will only include the three good paths. The neutral and evil paths will come later.


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No, at the start. We’ll be getting more later, but not right away.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

That was quick! Thank you! I was trying to find some info about it and didn't find any!


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I would personally like a different name to anti paladin. I am not sure something should be defined based on what they are the opposite of

I assume their reactions will be more offensive

For some reason the idea of a true neutral champion really amuses me (insert futurama references here)

Dataphiles

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Lanathar wrote:
For some reason the idea of a true neutral champion really amuses me (insert futurama references here)

Let it be.

Zapp Brannigan wrote:
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?


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Wouldnt be suprised if NE champion called Corruptor since Anti-Paladin(likely name) opposite of Paladin, Tyrant(likely name) is opposite of Liberator. And Redeemer is focusing on redeeming people so stands reason the NE be focused on corrupting others.

As for powers the good path seem to be focused on defensive and healing I m guessing evil path be offensive and harming.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I kind of feel like the opposite of the paladin might get a different official name but in the text there will be a note that says "sometimes referred to as an anti-paladin"


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't like "antipaladin" either. I like the ideas of Reziburno25: Tyrant for LE and Corruptor for NE. For CE, I would propose Destroyer, for example.


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BlackZack wrote:
I don't like "antipaladin" either. I like the ideas of Reziburno25: Tyrant for LE and Corruptor for NE. For CE, I would propose Destroyer, for example.

Me likes it! Feels in theme with what they're doing with the good aligned Champions.


Well Destoyer wouldnt work since you still one CE diety focused on corrupting life to own style of beauty, while other is centered on destruction. think more might makes right of nature name fit.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I'd like to see Blackguard return as one of the evil titles.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I'd like to see Blackguard return as one of the evil titles.

I always wince a bit when Blackguard is used unironically though.

Not only is it pronounced Blaggerd, it's original meaning is a kitchen servant, and now it's an out of date insult.

It's just way less cool than it looks written out.


Also speaking of subject we know good one represent aspects I think Order for LG,Redemption, Freedom I wonder what neutral ones will represent.


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The way that Champions work I think it have space for more than one cause per alignment, like having another Lawful Good Champion that is not the Paladin.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
WatersLethe wrote:
It's just way less cool than it looks written out.

Now I'm reminded of the discussion about the scientific names for bears.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
It's just way less cool than it looks written out.
Now I'm reminded of the discussion about the scientific names for bears.

I love everything about this.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, bear comes from the word "brown one" which replaced the actual germanic word for bear because they were fearful that the real name would summon one.

Dataphiles

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WatersLethe wrote:
Also, bear comes from the word "brown one" which replaced the actual germanic word for bear because they were fearful that the real name would summon one.

And then they changed editions and didn't have Summoners for a few books.


I think, even though they are not core, Anti-Paladins and their... 'kin' should be (largely) easy to homebrew, at least gonna try it for one of the big bads of my campaign

I mean, the easiest version to create an Anti-Pala would be 'take something a pala can do and think what [insert evil person of your alignment] would do instead'


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
It's just way less cool than it looks written out.
Now I'm reminded of the discussion about the scientific names for bears.

One of my personal favorites. It's very claws to my heart.


It's probably copyrighted or something, but I like Everquest's shadowknights.


WatersLethe wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I'd like to see Blackguard return as one of the evil titles.

I always wince a bit when Blackguard is used unironically though.

Not only is it pronounced Blaggerd, it's original meaning is a kitchen servant, and now it's an out of date insult.

It's just way less cool than it looks written out.

That's the pronunciation I've always used, don't know how else you'd say it. I always liked the sound, and it seems like a fitting title.


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sherlock1701 wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I'd like to see Blackguard return as one of the evil titles.

I always wince a bit when Blackguard is used unironically though.

Not only is it pronounced Blaggerd, it's original meaning is a kitchen servant, and now it's an out of date insult.

It's just way less cool than it looks written out.

That's the pronunciation I've always used, don't know how else you'd say it. I always liked the sound, and it seems like a fitting title.

Really? Pronouncing it like the two words "black" and "guard" seems like a really straightforward and obvious alternative to me (which is how I always pronounced it. Having only learned about "blaggerd" from these posts). I may have started out pronouncing "paladin" as "puh-lad-in" instead of "pal-a-din" but in this instance I feel not knowing that there's a homonym(?) of "blackguard" that's pronounced "blaggerd" that means "kitchen servant" is understandable and not at all unordinary. I'm also not sure how "kitchen servant" is a fitting title? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I always pronounced it black guard. It took a long time before I heard the common pronunciation. I saw no reason to switch.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

To be fair, if there was no historical use of the word, Blackguard would be pretty cool. It calls to mind an anti-guardsman, someone who shows up to make things worse. (Putting aside the out-of-vogue black = bad connotations.)

The insult version, which means something like a person without morals or a villain, is better than the kitchen servant definition, but it's still an insult. It'd be like making a class called Bastard because you wanted to evoke negative imagery.

At this point we're just in pet-peeve territory though.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think Destroyer is fine; after all, only one NG deity is super-focused on redemption.

...Also, I think we probably don't want to name the class the opposite of Liberator...


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Destroyer is generic, and I don't think it captures the flavor of the chaotic evil champion. Considering it is opposite of the paladin, I think it should have a unique name.

As for lawful evil, I like Tyrant. Corrupter is fine, but not great.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Destroyer is a bit generic. One thing that just came to mind is "Ravager", which possibly captures the wanton evil of CE a bit better.


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While I think ravager is a better name, I think my problem is I don't image CE champions as wanton evil. I see their evil as deliberate and ideological.

I don't see champions as people who only embody their alignment, but people who are advocates for them.

I don't think a person who goes around and commits widespread evil and unlawful acts would be out of flavor for the chaotic evil champion. I think the concept also includes people who are more insidious and work to undermine law and good less directly.


Ravager is certainly perfect for a Champion of Rovagug.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

In my home-brew setting, I've lauded to a CN Champion called The Defiant.


Defiant seems like good one for CN, think Arbiter would well for LN as they fit for being like judge and diplomat, only one I can't grasp is TN one.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As a result, my PCs have coined the following terms for other Champions.
LN = Lawkeepers
LE = Enslavers
NE = Corruptors
CE = Ruiners


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"Ruiner" sounds good to me for CE champions. It's basically "destroyer" but more flavorful.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Ruiners are my favorite, because in my home-brew they are mostly Goblins.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Militant goblin Champions who leave entire villages in ruins.


I want the LN champion to be the judicator.


Az0th wrote:

As a result, my PCs have coined the following terms for other Champions.

LN = Lawkeepers
LE = Enslavers
NE = Corruptors
CE = Ruiners

And now I have a Nine Inch Nails song in my head...


I like the Tyrant name for the LE Champion.

The names Ruiners/Destroyers don't pack as much flavor for me into the fair to middling evil and the viciousness that CE would bring.

These Maleficent Malefactors of Miscreantism need a better title, sadly I don't know what that title would be.

I realize naming these evil Champions is an escalation of adjectives to define those with wicked and vile hearts.

I have the same adjective and naming concerns about the neutral Champions as well.


Quote:
I have the same adjective and naming concerns about the neutral Champions as well.

Call the LN champion a Judge. Or maybe Adjudicator.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Squiggit wrote:
Quote:
I have the same adjective and naming concerns about the neutral Champions as well.
Call the LN champion a Judge. Or maybe Adjudicator.

Judge Judycator...

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