The Peacock and Stars Harrow


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

We did the first CotCC level 5 scenarios yesterday and that raised two additional remarks.

1) The Peacock Harrow blessing "When it's the Hour" says something li,e "if no boons were played on a check it is blessed. So you roll one additional die. Then if you play a boon that allows you to modify the result (like add 3), I guess it doesn't retroactively deletes the additional die (for obvious reason that you wouldn't know which one). OK but if I play a boon that let me reroll ? I would guess that you reroll the same dice (including the additional one from the Peacock) even if you did play a boon. But I could see someone saying that the card overrides the rulebook and that the roll isn't blessed. Fun corner case.

2) At level 5 of CotCC, when you play your Harrow (of the Star suits) it let's you heal a blessing or Divine card. Does it mean that if I have no blessing or Divine card in my discard and I discard my Harrow for its power (like blessing or exploring typically), it heals himself ? I guess yes.


Answer to question 2.

In the sidebar for healing in the rules: "When a power heals you, shuffle the specified number (and, if
specified, type) of random cards from your discards into your deck. If
you’re discarding a card to heal yourself, exclude that card from the
cards you are healing."

So no.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Jorveg answered question 2 above. Whilst the power that's causing you to be healed is not a power on the written blessing; I think the quoted rulebook sentence "if you're discarding a card to heal yourself, you can't heal the discarded card" should still apply, since the heal is a direct result of discarding the blessed quality. At least in my opinion.

Question 1, however, is an interesting one; and I don't know the answer. I would personally play that any roll or modifier would not remove the blessing, because you've already assembled the dice.

=============================

Relevant side-note....

Question 1 is actually very similar to a host of questions I have about one of Skizza's powers, from the Gunslinger Class deck. As quoted...

Skizza, Power 1 wrote:
When you would fail a combat check, you may add 1d6 (□ 1d8) and the Fire trait to the check [...]

This is, in PACG, the only situation I can think of where a trait is added to a check after the dice have been rolled, which can lead to some weird corner-case questions.

Obviously, Skizza can't use his after-check power against something immune to fire... but what about something weak to fire? If he adds the fire trait after the roll against something that says "if your check has the fire trait, add 1d8 (or add a die, etc)", does he add that extra bonus along with the 1d6 added by his power? If it adds 'a die', is that 'a die' defined by the skill he used when he originally rolled the check, or is it based on the bonus he's adding? Can a post-roll card even retroactively reference the original skill after the dice have been assembled?

This can also turn up on location powers - for example, there's a location in Mummy's Mask that adds 1 die to all checks with the Fire trait, so this question becomes much more relevant if you're playing Skizza in that environment.

What about if the target was partially resistant to fire, and said "If your check has the fire trait, subtract 1 from all dice rolled". Do you subtract 1 from the 1d6/1d8 you're adding, or from all of the previous dice you've already rolled? What if you then use a power to reroll the dice after using Skizza's power?

There's a lot of questions that I don't think have a clear answer there, but I think whatever answer there could be would also answer your Question 1. In summary: "Can a post-roll action cause conditional effects to impact the initially assembled dice or roll - and if so, to what extent?"


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Yewstance wrote:

Whilst the power that's causing you to be healed is not a power on the written blessing; I think the quoted rulebook sentence "if you're discarding a card to heal yourself, you can't heal the discarded card" should still apply, since the heal is a direct result of discarding the blessed quality. At least in my opinion.

I have to disagree. There's nothing "direct" (however we choose to define this) about the heal when playing the blessing. You're NOT playing the blessing to heal yourself; you ARE playing it TO cause some other effect (adding dice, most likely) - the heal is just a triggered consequence of that action.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thanks Longshot: this is exactly why I asked in the first place.

And thanks all because all of those remarks are relevant (as usual coming from veterans)... and yet just make my point that those two questions do not have obvious answers. Where is Hawkmoon when we need him?

Vic? Mike? Any clever thoughts?


Longshot11 wrote:
Yewstance wrote:

Whilst the power that's causing you to be healed is not a power on the written blessing; I think the quoted rulebook sentence "if you're discarding a card to heal yourself, you can't heal the discarded card" should still apply, since the heal is a direct result of discarding the blessed quality. At least in my opinion.

I have to disagree. There's nothing "direct" (however we choose to define this) about the heal when playing the blessing. You're NOT playing the blessing to heal yourself; you ARE playing it TO cause some other effect (adding dice, most likely) - the heal is just a triggered consequence of that action.

Wether it's a direct result is up to debate I think. You could first and foremost play your Harrow for the heal effect (I have), and consider the rest of the blessings power to be the "side effect".

And while I understand the logic behind the question, I still feel that the rule for healing is not that unambigous. It doesn't say that it has to relate to the use of a power on the card. It just says "if you're discarding a card to heal". I think theres a clear intent here to limit the cycling of cards used to heal (with some exceptions that are recharged back into the deck) that supports this interpretation.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

My opinion, in brief, is as follows.

The rulebook states "if you're discarding a card to heal yourself", not "if you're using a power on a card to heal yourself" or "if you're discarding a card to use a power to heal yourself".

I think the lack of mention of the term 'power' is supposed to imply that if discarding a card causes a heal - regardless as to whether it is that card, or a character power, or a location, scenario or adventure power - then you should exclude it.

I do, however, fully agree that the rulebook is ambiguous. If it was meant to only prevent cards from using their own power to heal themselves, though, then I feel that it should have been written far more clearly in the rulebook. I'm not convinced that's the intent, however.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
jorveg wrote:
In the sidebar for healing in the rules: "...If you’re discarding a card to heal yourself, exclude that card from the cards you are healing."

This indeed comes down to the exact reading of the above sidebar.

For me "discarding a card to heal" applies to:
- using a power on a card that says "discard (this card) to heal"
- or using a power on a card/character that says "discard a (type of) card to heal"
It doesn't apply to:
- using a power that is not a "healing" power but there is another power that will trigger if you use this one and that other power has an healing effect.

Until proven guilty by the higher powers.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

That appears to be a good summary.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

@Vic
Presumably that was aimed at Frencois' reading of the rules, and not my reading of the rules? :)

I can see the difference between "When you do this thing, you happen to heal" and "do this thing to heal", but I'm not sure it's completely intuitive. Either way, that seems to answer the question.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Yes, that was in response to Frencois.

Since "heal" is a now a specific game term, when we talk about healing, we mean only things that are specifically referred to by that game term. There may be other ways to move cards from your discard pile into your deck, but if they're not called healing, they're not healing. Just as there have long been multiple ways to get new boons into your hand, but if they're not called acquiring, they're not acquiring.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Just to clarify, the 5th Adventure Power (which is the focus of the discussion in this thread) does explicitly "Heal" a card, the debate is simply whether triggering that power by discarding a blessing causes that blessing to be an illegal target or not.

It seems that you are in agreement with Frencois that the blessing being discarded in the first place is a legal target for the Heal, though. Just making sure there wasn't a miscommunication on that.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Ah, yeah. I did misunderstand. Sorry.

But yes, any card that you discard in the act of healing yourself should not have the potential of being one of the cards that gets healed into your deck.


Vic Wertz wrote:
But yes, any card that you discard in the act of healing yourself should not have the potential of being one of the cards that gets healed into your deck.

So to clarify, you're saying that in this case - where we have a blessing that you're discarding to play, and another power that says "when you play a blessing, heal a card" - the blessing played is excluded from the pool of cards that can be healed?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

So my original reading was right after all; the rulebook avoids using the term 'power' intentionally, and it doesn't matter what effect is causing you a heal - a heal in any way triggered by discarding a card will never heal that card.

So no, you can't heal your own Harrow with that adventure power.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thanks Vic and Yewstance. That fully clarifies this one and indeed I will add in my own version of the FAQ the above statement.

Vic's unofficial but clever FAQ wrote:
Any card that you discard in the act of healing yourself should not have the potential of being one of the cards that gets healed into your deck.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

BTW, that somehow contradicts Vic's first answer:
"That appears to be a good summary."
referring to me saying:
"If you’re discarding a card to heal yourself, exclude that card from the cards you are healing doesn't apply when you play a power that is not a "healing" power but there is another power that will trigger if you use this one and that other power heals you".

Since in fact it seems Vic finaly arbitrates the opposite:
When I play my Harrow blessing that has a discard power that is not a "heal" one (no "heal" word mentionned in the power), if the current Harrow suit is Stars (hence mine is a Stars too btw), then the "When you play your Harrow, heal a...." power triggers, but althought it is clearly on another card that the one you played, still it does exclude your Harrow that you are currently playing from the "healable" cards.
OK I know it's a long sentence but I'm french and want to be precise :-).

So Ok I take the final arbitration, but then I wonder if it should be extended to the opposite of my first assumption, i. e. should Vic's final words be understood by extention as:

"If you’re discarding a card to heal yourself, exclude that card from the cards you are healing DOES apply EVEN when you play a power that is not a "healing" power but there is another power that will trigger if you use this one and that other power heals you".

Thoughts?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Sorry—when you said "that other power has an healing effect," I thought you were talking about a power that has an effect that is similar to healing, i.e. "shuffle a card from your discards into your deck."

I will verify design intent on the situation you were actually asking about.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thanks Vic

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