A Quick Question for the Swarm Shifter.


Advice


Just To keep this simple and quick. I Noticed that Vermin Aspect is essentially a level 1 Wild Shape that Grants Bonus to natural armor and the spell like effect of Enlarge Person.Turning the shifter into a sentient swarm.

What it dose not tell me is what natural attacks you received for being in that Form. as the only idea i have comes from the shifter claws snipit on swarm. Which allows me to gain a bite/Pincer/Sting attack.

So i don't know if i just get 1 bite/pincer/sting attack at large size, Or do i get something else? I cannot for the life of me find anything on this. So could someone help me figure this out.


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It's not exactly clear how much the alternate claw feature modifies your claws ability, so I don't know exactly what happens.

What I can tell you is that vermin aspect isn't a polymorph effect, so you can do anything in this form that could be done in your normal form. This means you can use your claws and any other natural attacks you may have. You could also cast spells, speak, climb, swim or use manufatured weapons and so on and so forth.

To answer your question, you could create two claws or modify the claw attacks using the alternate natural attack rules. I'm unsure if that gives you the specific type of natural attack, if that natural attack still uses your hands, or if it just changes the damage type.


Not sure if thats how that works. Picture this, How would a swarm have a claw attack to begin with? As lets be honest hear when you use vermin aspect you are dissolving into a pool of insects and spiders. Neither of which has a claw attack to begin with.

Regardless thou Vermin Aspect is a form of wild shape. Which functions exactly as beast shape. But uses your aspects to determiner what benefit you get. Take for example the bear aspect.

Major Form: Your shape changes to that of a dire bear. While in this form, you gain two claw attacks (1d6 damage) with the grab ability, a bite attack (1d8 damage), a 40 feet base speed, low-light vision and scent (30 feet). At 8th level, you gain Improved Natural Attack with your claws. At 15th level, the critical multiplier of your claw attack increases by 1 (×2 becomes ×3) to a maximum of ×4, and you gain the Awesome Blow feat.

As you can see the wild shape form of the bear aspect Clearly states what natural attacks it gets. Problem is this is not the same case as the vermin aspect form for the swarm shifter.


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Rman88 wrote:
Vermin Aspect is a form of wild shape.

Wrong, it a completely unrelated ability. Swarm Shifter doesn't have Wild Shape, or anything similar. Indeed, as written, Vermin Aspect isn't even a polymorph effect, so you keep your equipment (which gets enlarged as well), as well as natural weapons.


First of all Vermin Aspect Turns you into a swarm. Granted it functions the same way as enlarge person Rule wise. But in the end your not a giant humanoid made out of bugs. If that was the case you wouldn't have 0 range. Nor would you be able to occupied space as you would technically not be a swarm.

Regardless thou this dose not answer what natural attacks dose my Vermin aspect form grants me. As 2 claw attacks on a creature that don't even have hands. Dose not make any sense what so ever.

Lastly, i am talking about the shifter wild shape. Which in reality functions just like beast form 2. But using the major aspect of your aspect animal to determent the benefits you get. But their is a limit to what types of natural attacks you can use in this form. A snake shifter couldn't use claw attacks for the sole reason she doesn't have hands. Granted she would just use 2 bite attacks but regardless. The attacks you get should be based on what your form is.

Ps the only reason you have attacks to begin with for swarm shiftier. Is because having the abuilty to automatically deal damage. Like how normal swarms function would be broken. This is why you have to wait until high level to get most of the swarm befits.


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You really are just a giant humanoid(or whatever your current form is) made out of bugs. Heck, you can even be grappled for the first few levels. Your reach doesn't increase to 10ft, but it doesn't decrease to 0ft either. You receive and remove only those abilities mentioned in the ability. It specifically grants you the ability to move into people's squares, it doesn't make you weak against aoe damage, it doesn't allow you to move through small holes, it doesn't prevent you from being targeted by targeted attacks, it doesn't make you immune to flanking. If the intent was that you turn into a pile of bugs, you'd probably get immunity to grappling immediately rather than at 5th level.

You still have hands as they aren't expressly removed through the ability. You could have claws, no problem.

The stated intent of the alternate natural attacks ability is to create an option for shifters without appropriate claws. I believe the intent is to give you the 2 natural weapons of your choice from pincers, bite, or stinger.

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, it's more like a Worm-that-walks than a swarm. Or Virus-Ralph from Ralph Breaks the Internet.


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Rman88 wrote:
But in the end your not a giant humanoid made out of bugs. If that was the case you wouldn't have 0 range. Nor would you be able to occupied space as you would technically not be a swarm.

Ok, first, you're. Second, You don't have 0 range, the ability talks about your reach and says you don't increase it, which means you keep your normal 5ft. And third, you "can occupy the same space as a creature of any size" because the ability explicitly allows you to. You don't get any actual swarm abilities other then what the ability grants you, because you don't have the swarm subtype. Without the subtype, "swarm" is not really a mechanical thing.

Rman88 wrote:
Regardless thou this dose not answer what natural attacks dose my Vermin aspect form grants me.

Oh, but it does. Because since it isn't a polymorph effect, the answer is "none, but you keep your existing ones". RAW you can't activate Shifter's Claws (which includes the alternative antural attacks) after activating Vermin Aspect, but you keep the attacks form a previously activated Shifter's Claws.

Rman88 wrote:
Lastly, i am talking about the shifter wild shape.

I thought this thread was about Swarm Shifter...

Seriously, Swarm Shifter does not have Wild Shape, it does not have something related to Wild Shape, it doesn't have anything that allows you to polymorph.

Rman88 wrote:
A snake shifter couldn't use claw attacks for the sole reason she doesn't have hands.

Er, no? A Shifter in Snake major aspect form doesn't have claws because the aspact doesn't list claws. The Shifter's Claws class feature only works in natural form, where the Shifter does have hands.

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