Twitch Rules Revelations


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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In all the hubbub about fans getting their books, we haven't been talking about the stream much.

Fly now lasts 5 minutes instead of 1 and makes you fly at 20 feet or your land speed, whichever is faster.

Focus pools may be capped at 2 or 3 points? Not sure what the deal is there, but Logan made a comment that seemed to imply it. Also, we have confirmed sorcerers don't need to rest or do any special activity to Refocus, it just happens automatically. Clerics of healing deities can also Refocus from healing people.

Monster Identification is confirmed to have a table telling you what skills are tied to different kinds of monsters. One interesting thing is that Craft can be used to Recall Knowledge about constructs, as well generally evaluating the construction of objects. Sounds like this replaces Knowledge Engineering.

Skill DCs are going to have a "by level table" for stuff that should be rated by level, but the UTEML static DCs also got some elaboration. Sounds like they will be +/- 2/5/10 from their base levels to adjust for different difficulty levels.


From Spoiler #95 Simple DCs
Proficiency Rank DC
Untrained 10
Trained 15
Expert 20
Master 30
Legendary 40

I was thinking about that too. So lets say trivial -10 very easy -5, easy -2, medium is 0, hard +2, very hard +5, impossible +10.

Dorf is a 1st level rogue who is running from some pirates. He sees a rope leading into a brothel (since he is trained in Athletics the DC is 15) but it has been raining, so its a hard task making the DC 17.

Later, Dorf (who now is an 18th level rogue) steals a crown from a lich and is trying to hide within the undead mage’s billowing cloak. (Legendary DC so its 40), but trying to hide right next to someone is got to be near impossible so the DC is 50.

Now these are just my thoughts and I am just going on my knowledge of the Treat Wounds activity.


Seifter said something similar in a previous stream. He used a Sorceror as an example and stated that a Sorc could get like 3 focus by level 18 or some such.


Sorcerers only have 3 focus powers, so they can only get a focus pool of 3.

Paladins and monks both should be able to get more than 3 focus powers, I'd be very disappointed if they were capped at 3. The feats that grant a focus point don't give any indication of a cap.

I think he was just saying how many focus powers a sorcerer could have.


Dunno, 3 seems fine to me. You get them all back after a fight anyways. We'll see I guess.


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Data Lore wrote:
Dunno, 3 seems fine to me. You get them all back after a fight anyways. We'll see I guess.

Some of the Sorceer feats allow you to regain more than 1 focus point per 10 minutes. That implies a 10 minute rest will usually only give you one focus point back. So if you're max is 3 (and you don't have those feats), you'd need a 30 minute rest to regain them all, which might be a bit harder to do than just taking 10 minutes.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Not keen to have dilemna similar to which of my many Swift actions should I use.

Also Sorcerers have cantrips and spells. Martials with focus powers only have those to show how magical they are.

The Exchange

A max 3 cap makes sense for a Sorcerer since they don't need to refocus. That 30 minutes would just happen while they're adventuring (really just 20 minutes since the others would likely want to refocus/treat Wounds/identify loot after combat anyway). I was the one who asked about the all day blasting sorcerer cause I was wondering how their focus pool and feature work. I think it's a good balance for a class that still gets their baseline spell slots for everything else. I'm really excited to make a pseudo kineticist now with the elemental bloodline.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Multiclassing for more focus feats... how does that work for recharging? Don't they add onto the same pool?


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Captain Morgan wrote:


Focus pools may be capped at 2 or 3 points? Not sure what the deal is there, but Logan made a comment that seemed to imply it.

My first thought when he said this was maybe he was thinking of hero points. I think in Oblivion Oath they're limited to 3, but that may be because they have so many Jason didn't want them spending 5-6 on stabilization rolls. I also seem to remember something being said about a focus power that cost 5 focus at one time.

Or maybe Logan just worded it funny and we're reading too much into it.


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Honestly I kind of assumed that Focus would cap at 3. Since Sorcerer kinda has a theme of being the main Focus class it seems odd if other classes can get more.

I feel like 3 is plenty, I feel like more would just toss any need to think about whether or not to use Focus. Even three points is pretty loose. Yeah it takes 10 minutes -per- to recover but still.

Liberty's Edge

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WatersLethe wrote:
Multiclassing for more focus feats... how does that work for recharging? Don't they add onto the same pool?

They always have previously, and I doubt that's changed. That was the original idea behind Spell Points, after all, that there would be one pool for all such abilities a character had.

As for recharging, I bet you can use whichever method you prefer, but we'll have to wait and see.
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Personally, I'd bet that getting more that 3 Focus is rare, but not forbidden by the rules. I could see Storm Order Druids with more that that, for example.


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I listened to it. Logan made no comments that imply focus is capped. Focus is only capped by how many feats that increase the size of your focus pool you take.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, 3 seems laughably low as a cap on such an important subsystem. I definitely think someone who wants to Focus on Focus (haha) being able to break 3 pretty readily.


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WatersLethe wrote:
Yeah, 3 seems laughably low as a cap on such an important subsystem. I definitely think someone who wants to Focus on Focus (haha) being able to break 3 pretty readily.

Hm, since Focus Spells are supposed to be the once-or-twice per encounter-but-all-day-long powers, having 3 maximum with the 10 minute recharge seems fine to me.

Some Focus Powers like the draconic sorcerers claws have durations anyway so you can last 3 encounters before running out. Others are circumstantial enaugh that you probably can use them 1-2 time in every other encounter. Having a higher limit will make them no-brainers I fear.
The only worries I have are for stuff like Ki Strike that a monk probably would want to spam. But monks being ascetic as they are will understand that they can't have everything.


Considering that high level battles have an average of 4-5 rounds, 3 focus points is probably more than enough, if the ability is supposed to be spammed then it should not use a pool of points to begin.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
masda_gib wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Yeah, 3 seems laughably low as a cap on such an important subsystem. I definitely think someone who wants to Focus on Focus (haha) being able to break 3 pretty readily.

Hm, since Focus Spells are supposed to be the once-or-twice per encounter-but-all-day-long powers, having 3 maximum with the 10 minute recharge seems fine to me.

Some Focus Powers like the draconic sorcerers claws have durations anyway so you can last 3 encounters before running out. Others are circumstantial enaugh that you probably can use them 1-2 time in every other encounter. Having a higher limit will make them no-brainers I fear.
The only worries I have are for stuff like Ki Strike that a monk probably would want to spam. But monks being ascetic as they are will understand that they can't have everything.

Keeping in mind that a 10 minute rest very much will not be guaranteed in many games. In Starfinder, for example, we average one rest per game session, which might include 4 or 5 fights.

3 Focus sounds like plenty for your average character, even if you only get one rest per two to four encounters. However, if you're making a character who wants to go all in on Focus you're talking a very low ceiling.

Dipping into other classes to get more focus powers but not being able to get more focus points would essentially be like dipping to get more spells known, but not more spell slots.

I can see a cap of 3+1 per multiclass dedication feat being fairly reasonable, since I do see your point about making Focus a no-brainer "empty the clip" tactic.


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3 Focus Points seems like a perfectly fine cap to me. You're supposed to be able to use a Focus power every fight, but you're not supposed to use every Focus power every fight, otherwise they wouldn't both with having Focus Points in the first place. It's a resource to manage, a choice to be made.


WatersLethe wrote:
masda_gib wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Yeah, 3 seems laughably low as a cap on such an important subsystem. I definitely think someone who wants to Focus on Focus (haha) being able to break 3 pretty readily.

Hm, since Focus Spells are supposed to be the once-or-twice per encounter-but-all-day-long powers, having 3 maximum with the 10 minute recharge seems fine to me.

Some Focus Powers like the draconic sorcerers claws have durations anyway so you can last 3 encounters before running out. Others are circumstantial enaugh that you probably can use them 1-2 time in every other encounter. Having a higher limit will make them no-brainers I fear.
The only worries I have are for stuff like Ki Strike that a monk probably would want to spam. But monks being ascetic as they are will understand that they can't have everything.

Keeping in mind that a 10 minute rest very much will not be guaranteed in many games. In Starfinder, for example, we average one rest per game session, which might include 4 or 5 fights.

3 Focus sounds like plenty for your average character, even if you only get one rest per two to four encounters. However, if you're making a character who wants to go all in on Focus you're talking a very low ceiling.

Dipping into other classes to get more focus powers but not being able to get more focus points would essentially be like dipping to get more spells known, but not more spell slots.

I can see a cap of 3+1 per multiclass dedication feat being fairly reasonable, since I do see your point about making Focus a no-brainer "empty the clip" tactic.

I guess it will only show after some playing if 3 Focus is enough.

If you want to have a Focus-Powers-all-the-way character, it might be too low. But keep in mind that in PF2 there are many 10 minute activities so short rests to repair the shield, treat wounds and stuff might be common. Your Focus character then has time to recharge. Or you make it a sorcerer. Then you only have to walk around 10 minutes between fights... and that is something that will be doable (Otherwise you play really action packed games Oo).

The 3+dedication count is something I reeeaaally wouldn't like. Because it gives an incentive to multiclass for a bad reason and even having many Focus Powers from multiclassing doesn't give you more combat rounds to use them. If anything I would like a general feat that gives +1 Focus for focused characters.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
masda_gib wrote:
If anything I would like a general feat that gives +1 Focus for focused characters

I like that better too.

I think the problem is differences in campaign style will have a big difference in the effectiveness of different Focus caps. Differences in campaign style has a lot to answer for, though, so that's nothing new.

In our games, I tend to hussle because storming the castle, exploring hostile territory, saving the prince, etc all have in-world incentives to move quickly if at all possible, and I like to really get in my character's shoes.

Other groups might take care to ensure there's regular intervals for breaks.

I think 3 might be a decent number of focus points for the majority of groups, but mine might want to bump it to 4 or more. Or make sure there are magic items as loot that boost the focus pool.


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3 is a decent number unless you are a Bard...
Lingering Performance, Inspire Heroics and so many other powers...


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I like how easy it is to adjust things like a Focus pool cap for groups that don't like to stop to heal and refocus.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
GM OfAnything wrote:
I like how easy it is to adjust things like a Focus pool cap for groups that don't like to stop to heal and refocus.

Best would be in the GMG variants with advice from the devs on what to expect if you double or triple or halve the cap.

Come to think of it, the GMG might be best with a description of all the toggles you can adjust to customize the game and why they chose the values in Core


Edge93 wrote:
Honestly I kind of assumed that Focus would cap at 3. Since Sorcerer kinda has a theme of being the main Focus class it seems odd if other classes can get more.

Of the CRB classes, sure, but since as of yet unprinted classes may be even better at focus stuff than the sorcerer, it's best not to make a cap of 3 inherent to the system.

Like the Occultist, whenever they print it, should be the best focus caster as the Occultist inspired all the mechanics and nomenclature for the various mechanics in the playtest which became focus. I fully expect the occultist to have scads of focus, which they must invest into implements up to a resonance limit.


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If the focus cap is inherent, you could make a focus caster more focused by giving them actions to regain focus in combat, which is probably better balanced than just raising the cap.


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There is no focus cap.

No need to discuss it. It doesn't exist.


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citricking wrote:

There is no focus cap.

No need to discuss it. It doesn't exist.

This makes me happy. ;)

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