What classes can make good scouts and flankers other then the rogue?


Advice


So, I'm trying to figure out who can do the rogue thing other then rogues.. Characters who are stealthy, With skill points, And have either Sneak Attack, Trapfinding or both..


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Slayer is the most obvious to me. There are bard and alchemist archetypes that can fit the role, as well as trapper rangers.


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I've looked at this before and this is what I came up with ignoring prestige classes.

Sneak Attack
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Vanilla Rogue
Vanilla Ninja
Vanilla Slayer
Alchemist - Vivisectionist or Chemist
Magus - Greensting Slayer
Monk - Monk of the mantis
Bard - Sandman
Cavalier - Order of the blossom
inquisitor - Sanctified slayer and/or Crocodile domain
WarPriest - Cult leader or Mantis Zealot
Druid - nature fang and/or Crocodile domain
Vigilante - Serial Killer
Fighter - Venom Blade
Cleric - Crocodile domain
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Trap Finding
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Alchemist - Alchemical Trapper, Crypt Breaker, Trap Breaker or Vault Breaker
Bard - Sandman, Detective, Archivist, or Archaeologist
Druid - Nature Fang (Slayer Talent)
Slayer - Slayer Talent
Hunter - Patient Ambusher
Vanilla Investigator
Ranger - Trapper or Urban Ranger
Sorcerer - Seeker
Oracle - Seeker
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Its worth noting that when it comes to skills, if there is a skill you want your character to have and its not normally a class skill there is a talent that at the very least will make it a class skill. Many of them also give you a small bonus as well as making it a class skill.

Glancing at the list there's some obvious overlaps, such as Sandman(Bard), Nature's Fang (Druid) and Slayer. While others may or may not work (one of the alchemist archetypes under trapfinding probably works with vivisectionist but I don't know for sure). Also, while everything under sneak attack does get sneak attack, very few get a progression that mirrors what a rogue gets. So, while you would have sneak attack it wouldn't be at a level that's going to majorly contribute to your damage.

Grand Lodge

Slayers, Stalker Vigilantes, Investigators, Ninjas and the Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor archetype all fit at least one of these qualities. (Ok the vigiliante doesn't technically get sneak attack, but it's basically the same thing.)

There's a ton of classes who can be stealthy, have good perception and a decent amount of skill points even if they don't have sneak attack or trapfinding.

Sovereign Court

Sneak Attack isn't a very good ability unless you have a reliable way to use it. Counting on being able to flank with a party member is not what I would call "reliable", personally. Also worth noting that tons of common enemies are immune to it.

That said, if having Sneak Attack and a bunch of skill ranks is what you want to do, Vivisectionist Alchemist (best paired with Beastmorph) is a super solid choice.


There are plenty of classes that can do "typical" rogue like things, but I want to say that typical rogue things (while they sound good) are bad in practice.

Scouting "ahead" is actually a bad idea. Unless the whole party is able to move stealthily (they probably aren't) then it means 1 character going ahead on their own. This can be very hazardous to your health when you eventually roll low. You can't rely on invisibility because so many things negate it.

As for sneak attack, as a method of dealing damage it kind of sucks. It sounds neat to be able to roll a lot of d6s. However, in practice the more straightforward ways of dealing damage often end up being better, until you have a way to guarantee sneak attack on all attacks. Which generally comes online too late.

In my opinion you're better off just looking for a class that has good abilities to increase their own damage and has a lot of skill points.


Thank you all for your replies! Plenty of classes to look into. =)

And Sneak Attack, While not being the best, I guess it feels like it would be something that would be useful to have while flanking. I dont know many other ways to get similar damage increases that keeps going up with your level...


Well Water Dancer monks gets that is generally mobile and has some stealth.

Warlock Vigilante (seriously vigilantes are amazingly versatile) get a blast that scales in damage (poorly but scales) and can get lots of the normal vigilante goodies.

Aether Kineticists can make great scouts thanks to Invisibility and easy access to "immortal" familiars (potentially with EX invisibility).

Ashtifa Witch also has good access to invisibility, mobility, divination and combat spells/abilities. But they are bad at flanking. They very much rely on save or suck from across the battlefield.

Arcanists are in a similar situation where they are really good at scouting but fail when flanking (although they can easily survive melee thx to Armored Mask).


Inquisitors make better flankers than Rogues by virtue of Solo Tactics+Outflank. It's just a better class feature than sneak attack is.


Hunter for sure, for the same reason as inquisitor + animal companion.


Nature Fang Druid with the Monkey Domain is pretty nice.

You can get trapfinding with a slayer talent. Monkey Athletics gives an extra bonus to disable device. And ranged legerdemain at level 6 let you disarm most traps from a safe distance.

And.... it synergizes well with vanara, if that race is an option for you.


Merellin wrote:

Thank you all for your replies! Plenty of classes to look into. =)

And Sneak Attack, While not being the best, I guess it feels like it would be something that would be useful to have while flanking. I dont know many other ways to get similar damage increases that keeps going up with your level...

So, Inquisitor Archers can very much do a lot of skills, have spells for utility, and can buff themselves into high damage with all of their class abilities and spells.

It may not be as much as the average of the sneak attack dice damage, but its usually something that you can control much better. And comes with lots of attack bonuses, which is something the Rogue chassis lacks.

A bowquisitor is one of the best all around characters you can build in my opinion.


Sanctified Slayer + Ravener Hunter Inquisitor w/ VMC Rogue. Full Sneak Attack, access to Trapfinding, access to slayer talents, etc. All the benefit of being a Rogue with none of the downsides, IMHO.


The Snakebite Striker Brawler Archetype is a great skirmishing Sneak Attack character. They can Feint while moving.

The Arcanist Arcane Exploit Dimensional Slide gives you a 10' Teleport that can be done as part of your move and inflicts no disorientation. It only costs a 1 level dip in Arcanist.


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Besides those on LordKailas' list, any character with the spell Aram Zey's Focus can disable traps like a character with trapfinding. It's on the alchemist/investigator, bard/skald and sorc/wiz/arcanist lists. Find traps duplicates the trap spotter rogue talent. I usually figure that you can't afford utility spells except fly/teleport types until they're a level lower than your highest spells, so these are 5th-6th class level tricks at best for a full or 6-level spellcaster. Similarly Sense Vitals can give sneak attack.

It's not relevant to Merellin's concerns because it's with blowpipes (ranged weapons) only but for your list Lord Kailas poison darter rangers get sneak attack too.

A disposable familiar (figment archetype, or the kineticist's elemental whispers) can be the best scout ahead you can get.

Any character with the dirty fighting feat and an improved maneuver feat can get a big advantage from flanking.

Grand Lodge

Just wanted to add to something mentioned above...the Warlock Vigilante ability Mystic Bolts may not scale very well on it's own, but you can sneak attack with it, and you can two-weapon fight with it, it count's as a weapon for a number of items and abilities, you can throw it at range, etc.

Warlock Vigilante is an amazing gateway into the Arcane Trickster prestige class if you pair it with a class that gives you sneak attack. I play a URogue 1 / Warlock Vigilante 6 / Arcane Trickster (currently 2) in PFS, and I love it. Currently hitting with 2 bolts a round for 4d6+3 precision/acid damage per hit (1d6+3 bolt + 2d6 sneak + 1d6 from deliquescent gloves) against touch AC. Plus I get a spellbook / cast spells like a wizard, and get a truckload of skill points to be super useful out of combat.

Arcane Trickster is also fun thanks to Ranged Legerdemain...disable those traps you find at range, just in case you set them off :)

In a home game, URogue 4 / Warlock Vigilante 6 / Arcane Trickster 10 would be pretty amazing.


avr wrote:
Find traps duplicates the trap spotter rogue talent.

I strongly disagree with this. The major advantage of having a rogue around as opposed to the dozens of others that can boost their perception or use a spell to locate traps is that a rogue with Trap Spotter doesn't have to be actively looking for a trap. Just being in the front of the party gives a good chance of not wandering into a trap. With other classes it requires effort that slows the party movement to a crawl.

Trap Spotter is a minor thing, since traps really aren't a big thing in Pathfinder (unless your GM loves them). But it is something that most other classes don't do better than a rogue, so its worth mentioning.


Actually, find traps really does do trap spotter. Not for hours of travelling overland, but while it's active 'You receive a check to notice traps within 10 feet of you, even if you are not actively searching for them.' so you're not slowed while using it.


avr wrote:

Besides those on LordKailas' list, any character with the spell Aram Zey's Focus can disable traps like a character with trapfinding. It's on the alchemist/investigator, bard/skald and sorc/wiz/arcanist lists. Find traps duplicates the trap spotter rogue talent. I usually figure that you can't afford utility spells except fly/teleport types until they're a level lower than your highest spells, so these are 5th-6th class level tricks at best for a full or 6-level spellcaster. Similarly Sense Vitals can give sneak attack.

It's not relevant to Merellin's concerns because it's with blowpipes (ranged weapons) only but for your list Lord Kailas poison darter rangers get sneak attack too.

A disposable familiar (figment archetype, or the kineticist's elemental whispers) can be the best scout ahead you can get.

Any character with the dirty fighting feat and an improved maneuver feat can get a big advantage from flanking.

Thanks! I'd missed that one, probably because the ability isn't called sneak attack.

In the same vein as the spell Aram Zey's Focus. There is the trait Trap Finder, however its a campaign trait meaning that unless you're playing the associated campaign it will require DM approval.

There are also prestige classes that grant trapfinding or sneak attack. Which could be relevant if you decide you want one of the options listed above that don't give you the relevant ability. I've listed the prestige class and what level you gain the relevant ability.

Sneak Attack
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Assassin (1st)[+1d6 every odd level]
Crimson Assassin, Deep Sea Pirate, Sleepless Detective (1st)[+1d6 every 3 levels]
Arcane Trickster, Halfling Opportunist, Rose Warden (2nd)[+1d6 every even level]
Evangelist (2nd)[as per original class]
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Trap Finding
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Brother of the seal(2nd)
Consortium Agent(1st)
Dark Delver(1st)
Pathfinder Field Agent(3rd)
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Grand Lodge

The other major benefit of the sanctified slayer is that you actually flank better. You still have solo tactic to use with flanking related teamwork feats, outflank being the most obvious.

Nature fang druid comes with animal companion to be your flanking buddy.

Scouting can also be relegated to spell like insects scouts and arcane eye. The sage figment familiar is a stellar scout.

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