Alien Archive 3 Mount Rules


Rules Questions


Has Paizo made any mention of if the rules for mounts in the upcoming Alien Archive 3 will also apply to drones that are ridden by mechanics?


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Nope. We've got no details about those rules.

But since those rules would need to specifically state that they didn't apply to drone mounts, they probably will apply.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I saw the title to this and was like, "WHAT?? I haven't gotten mine, yet!"

Sovereign Court

There are already rules for riding a mount in the core book, under Survival. Bit of a weird skill to ride a drone perhaps. But what are you expecting to change?


The mount rules in the core rulebook don't apply to riding a drone. I'm just wondering if they are going to add anything new in regards to riding a drone in the new alien archive.

Sovereign Court

I think you have a better chance of getting it in SCOM.


Scottybobotti wrote:
The mount rules in the core rulebook don't apply to riding a drone. I'm just wondering if they are going to add anything new in regards to riding a drone in the new alien archive.

They apply to riding a drone. You just wouldn't have to make the check for getting the mount to do something.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Scottybobotti wrote:
The mount rules in the core rulebook don't apply to riding a drone. I'm just wondering if they are going to add anything new in regards to riding a drone in the new alien archive.
They apply to riding a drone. You just wouldn't have to make the check for getting the mount to do something.

Which does mean that the lack of Survival as a class skill for Mechanics is liable to lead to a pretty small range of Theme choices for characters intending to make significant use of the Riding Saddle.

Though, that does make for a somewhat obvious Ysoki Bounty Hunter Mechanic build...


That is true if you want to use things like cover, but it's debatable if you need to do a survival check as a quick action for both the mechanic and drone to attack at the same time. Actually now that I look at the description of cover why would you even want to use that ability when you can just use a standard action to go total defense while on the drone's back.

The GM's I've played with have never made my barathu riding mechanic ever do that. It would certainly hamper my build since he is melee focused and riding on his drone allows both to get up close to the enemy quick and then make multiple attacks on them.


Scottybobotti wrote:
It would certainly hamper my build since he is melee focused and riding on his drone allows both to get up close to the enemy quick and then make multiple attacks on them.

Yeah, you're not supposed to be able to do that and it's on purpose. Pounce or move and attack are high level abilities for a reason.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

You don't need to make a survival check to direct a drone. That doesn't mean you don't have to make an easy check to not fall off, when you take damage.

You won't have to worry about needing that action because the drone bolted or reared, though.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Scottybobotti wrote:
It would certainly hamper my build since he is melee focused and riding on his drone allows both to get up close to the enemy quick and then make multiple attacks on them.
Yeah, you're not supposed to be able to do that and it's on purpose. Pounce or move and attack are high level abilities for a reason.

Doesn't using Master Control already enable that? Drone moves you into range, you each get one attack (without Full Attack penalties, handily, and with Unwieldy weapons being an option).


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Is pounce a Pathfinder rule because I can't find it in the Starfinder core rulebook. I can only find operative pounce in the Armory book. I've found that people who played Pathfinder tend to apply those rules to Starfinder when in fact they've been either removed or changed in Starfinder. I've never played Pathfinder and I've found with the people I play with who have played Pathfinder tend to revert to those rules when they don't know what is supposed to happen instead of checking the Starfinder core rulebook. Which is completely understandable, but there are actually a lot of differences between the two rule sets.

I don't see why you can't do a move action to have your drone move and then have both attack a target using their standard actions. After all they can do that if the mechanic was not on the drone's back.

Falling off your drone when you take damage looks like it could apply, but a barathu can fly so how would that affect falling off the drone? Actually it is a move action to fly and a reaction roll to avoid falling off your drone so I can see where you can get knocked off now.

Sovereign Court

@Scottybobotti: I think you and BigNorseWolf are misunderstanding. When you said "multiple attacks" he probably thought you wanted to have your mount move into melee so you'd have a full action left to do a full attack.

That's clearly not possible with the Survival riding rules.

But you meant: spend my move action to give my drone a move, and then we both spend our standard action to make an attack, so that's multiple attacks.

That however should be possible. It's weird that you use Survival for it with a drone, but for now that's how it goes. Maybe SCOM will provide something more mechanically thematic.


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Ascalaphus wrote:

@Scottybobotti: I think you and BigNorseWolf are misunderstanding. When you said "multiple attacks" he probably thought you wanted to have your mount move into melee so you'd have a full action left to do a full attack.

That's clearly not possible with the Survival riding rules.

But you meant: spend my move action to give my drone a move, and then we both spend our standard action to make an attack, so that's multiple attacks.

That however should be possible. It's weird that you use Survival for it with a drone, but for now that's how it goes. Maybe SCOM will provide something more mechanically thematic.

Per the Limited AI and Master Control rules, that's not how it would appear to work.


Exactly what Ascalaphus said.


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AH! Okay. Yeah that works. Sorry.

Technically what happens (since the drone has to move after you) is you delay your action, the drone goes, it moves and attacks, then your readied attack goes off. One whack from you one whack from the drone.


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If you really want to, you can program your drone to behave like a temperamental bucking bronco. However, there is no rule that a drone loses its remote controls when a riding saddle is installed, so many mechanics ignore the optional horse-emulator interface which just isn't as efficient as using voice commands or a datalink.


whew wrote:
If you really want to, you can program your drone to behave like a temperamental bucking bronco. However, there is no rule that a drone loses its remote controls when a riding saddle is installed, so many mechanics ignore the optional horse-emulator interface which just isn't as efficient as using voice commands or a datalink.

Thing is, it's treated as a combat trained mount with only the exceptions specifically provided by the mod or by class features - you don't have to worry about directing it in combat, for example, but you still need to use Survival to stay mounted when you get hit.


BigNorse is exactly right in regards to how to get the drone to attack before the mechanic does. My barathu will sometimes ready an action and let the drone try to grapple the target first so he can get all those bonuses.


Nerdy Canuck wrote:
whew wrote:
If you really want to, you can program your drone to behave like a temperamental bucking bronco. However, there is no rule that a drone loses its remote controls when a riding saddle is installed, so many mechanics ignore the optional horse-emulator interface which just isn't as efficient as using voice commands or a datalink.
Thing is, it's treated as a combat trained mount with only the exceptions specifically provided by the mod or by class features - you don't have to worry about directing it in combat, for example, but you still need to use Survival to stay mounted when you get hit.

I agree that you still use survival to stay mounted when hit. Since it takes a reaction to do so, if a mechanic gets hit twice in a turn, they automatically fall off!


What I'm unclear on is whether you need to roll the check to Fight from a Combat Trained Mount.


whew wrote:


I agree that you still use survival to stay mounted when hit. Since it takes a reaction to do so, if a mechanic gets hit twice in a turn, they automatically fall off!

...okay now thats weird.


All your questions are probably answered if you just assume that the mounted rules are linked to the survival skill because it has to do with riding animals only. All the other things you can do with survival are animal related. It has no apparent connection to riding a robot. I'd argue that riding a drone is more similar to riding a motorcycle as opposed to riding an animal.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I did always think making it consume a reaction was a bit harsh. It also makes uaing an AoO as a mounted melee fighter quite risky.


Nerdy Canuck wrote:
What I'm unclear on is whether you need to roll the check to Fight from a Combat Trained Mount.

That's the check that the riding saddle says you don't have to make. However, some people interpret that as meaning you automatically make the check, but still have to spend the action.


whew wrote:
Nerdy Canuck wrote:
What I'm unclear on is whether you need to roll the check to Fight from a Combat Trained Mount.
That's the check that the riding saddle says you don't have to make. However, some people interpret that as meaning you automatically make the check, but still have to spend the action.

Incorrect, near as I can tell; you don't have to make the Control Mount in Battle check - Fight from a Combat Trained Mount is a different check.


All this discussion and it says in the description of the riding saddle on p. 77-78 of the rulebook, "You can direct your drone mount in battle without attempting survival checks." I think that definitively answers everyones' questions regarding the survival checks.


Scottybobotti wrote:
All this discussion and it says in the description of the riding saddle on p. 77-78 of the rulebook, "You can direct your drone mount in battle without attempting survival checks." I think that definitively answers everyones' questions regarding the survival checks.

Directing your drone would be the "Control Mount in Battle" check. It does not cover all of the checks involved in riding a mount.


Nerdy Canuck wrote:
whew wrote:
Nerdy Canuck wrote:
What I'm unclear on is whether you need to roll the check to Fight from a Combat Trained Mount.
That's the check that the riding saddle says you don't have to make. However, some people interpret that as meaning you automatically make the check, but still have to spend the action.
Incorrect, near as I can tell; you don't have to make the Control Mount in Battle check - Fight from a Combat Trained Mount is a different check.

"Fight" is the one that has "direct a mount" in its text.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

That certainly means that you don't need to make survival checks. To direct your drone mount in battle.

I don't see what it would have to do with the other survival checks, to do things that are not directing your drone mount?


whew wrote:
Nerdy Canuck wrote:
whew wrote:
Nerdy Canuck wrote:
What I'm unclear on is whether you need to roll the check to Fight from a Combat Trained Mount.
That's the check that the riding saddle says you don't have to make. However, some people interpret that as meaning you automatically make the check, but still have to spend the action.
Incorrect, near as I can tell; you don't have to make the Control Mount in Battle check - Fight from a Combat Trained Mount is a different check.

"Fight" is the one that has "direct a mount" in its text.

And I just noticed the Control Mount check specifies mounts that are not combat-trained, which the Riding Saddle already accounts for (which does nicely streamline Riding Saddle Mechanic builds). Still, that leaves several other checks you need Survival for.


So, Fight From a Combat Trained Mount says you have to pass a Survival check as a quick action to be able to have both rider and mount attack in the same round. If you fail you can only make one attack between the mount and rider.

I guess it comes down to if you think "directing a mount in combat" from the description of the combat saddle includes the action Fight from a Combat Trained Mount.

To me fighting from on top of a combat trained mount is included in "directing a mount in combat" since the mechanic is giving it orders to move and attack.

The skill check implies that you need to actively guide the mount in some way. Whereas the mechanic is giving voice commands to the drone which it carries out to the best of its ability without fail.


Scottybobotti wrote:

So, Fight From a Combat Trained Mount says you have to pass a Survival check as a quick action to be able to have both rider and mount attack in the same round. If you fail you can only make one attack between the mount and rider.

I guess it comes down to if you think "directing a mount in combat" from the description of the combat saddle includes the action Fight from a Combat Trained Mount.

To me fighting from on top of a combat trained mount is included in "directing a mount in combat" since the mechanic is giving it orders to move and attack.

The skill check implies that you need to actively guide the mount in some way. Whereas the mechanic is giving voice commands to the drone which it carries out to the best of its ability without fail.

Not going to cover much else, though - for example, I can't really see a ruling that Spur and Leap are included; it helps that Fight from a Combat Trained Mount has "direct a mount" in its text.


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"Guide with Knees" looks like it should also count as directing the mount. However, it is very much the horse-emulator-interface part that I think you should be able to bypass by using the remote controls. The same for "leap".

"Spur" doesn't or shouldn't work with drones.

"Cover", "Fast Mount/Dismount", "Soft Fall", and "Stay Mounted" should use survival checks.

EDIT: added "also"


whew wrote:
"Guide with Knees" looks like it should also count as directing the mount. However, it is very much the horse-emulator-interface part that I think you should be able to bypass by using the remote controls.

Just because you think that's how it should work doesn't mean that's how it works.

Guide With Knees means keeping all your hands free from your mount, which is about balancing on your mount rather than directing it. Leap lets you use your Survival ranks in place of having a skill module, so you're shouldn't expect to get that for free either.

Spur with a drone is odd, but nothing in the rules blocks it.


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Nerdy Canuck wrote:

Just because you think that's how it should work doesn't mean that's how it works.

It's by far the best ruling the evidence allows for and its what you should go with

Quote:
Guide With Knees means keeping all your hands free from your mount, which is about balancing on your mount rather than directing it.

Absolutely not.

Guide with Knees

As part of a move action to ride a creature, you can guide it with your knees, keeping both of your hands free. If you fail the check, you must use one hand to guide your mount.

guiding a creature and directing it aren't the same word but they're the same idea.

The DC is only 5 anyway. 1 rank 3 trained (pick it up with your theme) and you can't fail.

Quote:
Spur with a drone is odd, but nothing in the rules blocks it.

It's a little antithematic having something with no heart dig just a little deeper to give it 110%.

Or maybe the brave little toasting you're riding has a heart after all.

If you fail its fatigued and I think your drone is immune to that. A fair bit of the time if you can't pay the cost you can't get the benefit.

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