Investigator update


Advice


So I've been playing this character a looong time and finally hit level 8. So he is 7 levels investigator and 1 swashbuckler. He is pretty much a jack of all trades.. So the advice I'm trying to figure out is where to go in my talent and extracts (possibly where to go after)

Talents right now I went mutagen, quick study, extend potion and enhance potion. The character relies a lot on alchemical allocation.

Feats: Extra talent (x2) Fencing grace, power attack and skill focus umd and weapon focus rapier. The skill focus is from half elf and focus is from the swashbuckler dip.

Lol just realizing how much is to this character...his UMD is up to 18, so as long as he rolls a 2 or higher the wand is going to work. Typically he has been buffed with heroism, barkskin, ablative barrier, heightened awareness..with a ton of potions: darkvision, barkskin, bull's str, cure serious wounds, fly and heroism. Wands: comprehend lang, cure light, detect magic, faerie fire and shield.

I'm sure I'm missing things but just a idea for the moment


What is the rest of the party like? That would somewhat inform decisions.

Talents
Infusion is always a good choice and becomes better as you level and have more extract slots. You can try to convince your team mates to buy Boro Beads if they want specific extracts on the regular. This'd be my choice.

Sickening Offensive just became available and is very good if you have anyone in your party that wants to land saving throws. Despite being called Offensive, it's actually mostly a defense - Sickened for just one round mostly prevents retaliation.

Atheist Inspiration is either very good or underwhelming. Do you fight a lot of Clerics/Druids/etc? Take it!

Underworld/Expanded Inspiration save you daily uses of Inspiration. I found Inspo to run dry quite frequently w/o at least one of these. Easily skippable if you don't run dry too often on Inspo.

Combine Extracts through Extra Talent next level is Combine Extracts. I think it's less necessary if you're not a STR character, since IMO the best extract combos lean towards reach fighting - Long Arm + Enlarge Person, or Fluid Form + basically anything. It's also not really great if you've got Admixture Vials but those are kind of a rules mess, so some DMs might avoid them (and you should too if you're in PFS, because of table variation).

Extracts
Channel Vigor. If you don't have a Haste caster in your party, take Channel Vigor. Even if you, consider it anyways because it's always good to have more Haste.

Infuse Self. It's a minor effect, but as you clearly know, those 10 min/lvl extracts are great. You're also unlikely to use other polymorph spells as a Fencing Grace Investigator, so this'd be your standard polymorph.

Standard 3rd level stuff you should look into is Displacement, Burrow, and the Remove X spells. They're all pretty self explanatory.

Past 3rd level, my top 4th level extracts would be Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, and Echolocation. Fluid Form is great if you've got Combine Extracts.

Silver Crusade

@Taldis: I think it's a PFS character, so variable party composition.

@ekibus: I like Expanded Inspiration and Amazing Inspiration


Yeah I'm pretty much stuck with PFS for now. But that is part of the fun to me. I like sickening offensive but the more I've been thinking about it I'm soso. Combine extracts is up there for me. Expanded inspiration is definitely up there too, With my massive cha 7 I'm at a 14 diplomacy and am typically the one rolling so it is a good option, I'm good with perception...but hey more is good and sense motive could use the bump. Also forgot about amazing inspiration I need to get it in there soon.

Spells: Infuse self is pretty nice...actually all of them are pretty nice. One thing I'm debating on is getting heroism and freeing up a spot for alchemical allocation. Right now I have 2 prepped and a second level boro bead. Ablative barrier and resist energy is the other two.


ekibus wrote:

Yeah I'm pretty much stuck with PFS for now. But that is part of the fun to me. I like sickening offensive but the more I've been thinking about it I'm soso. Combine extracts is up there for me. Expanded inspiration is definitely up there too, With my massive cha 7 I'm at a 14 diplomacy and am typically the one rolling so it is a good option, I'm good with perception...but hey more is good and sense motive could use the bump. Also forgot about amazing inspiration I need to get it in there soon.

Spells: Infuse self is pretty nice...actually all of them are pretty nice. One thing I'm debating on is getting heroism and freeing up a spot for alchemical allocation. Right now I have 2 prepped and a second level boro bead. Ablative barrier and resist energy is the other two.

I like Alchemical Allocation Heroism better on an Alchemist (and I suppose not in PFS! No crafting) because Brew Potion lets you update the duration on occasion. DEX Investigators have a lot more room in their 3rd level slots than Alchemists too, since you're not just blowing them all on Monstrous Physique I/Fey Form I. I guess it depends on your budget - another 2nd level Boro Bead is relatively cheap.

EDIT: Oh and I might actually avoid Burrow in PFS! I find a lot of scenario writers forget about that effect and it can pretty easily be fun wrecker if your DM isn't prepared for you to have it on hand.

I'm looking at my old Investigator char sheet and I think I took Amazing Inspiration at the same level as Tenacious Inspiration. I liked having the both of them, I'm not sure if I would take Amazing Inspiration before Expanded/Underworld or without Tenacious (which is out of PFS range).

Grand Lodge

ekibus wrote:


Talents right now I went mutagen, quick study, extend potion and enhance potion. The character relies a lot on alchemical allocation.

Feats: Extra talent (x2) Fencing grace, power attack and skill focus umd and weapon focus rapier. The skill focus is from half elf and focus is from the swashbuckler dip.

Lol just realizing how much is to this character...his UMD is up to 18, so as long as he rolls a 2 or higher the wand is going to work. Typically he has been buffed with heroism, barkskin, ablative barrier, heightened awareness..with a ton of potions: darkvision, barkskin, bull's str, cure serious wounds, fly and heroism. Wands: comprehend lang, cure light, detect magic, faerie fire and shield.

I like Admixture Vial. I used reduce person a lot have it ready with an other extract was great for the occasional surprise fight. I went with sickening strike and gloves of marking, the group wizard will love you. Now you are a buffer and debuffer. To more trades for Jack.

Chronicler's Insight give a bunch of great little buffs. Some of the best getting through DR (if you can plan for it) half his studied strike damage to creatures immune to sneak attacks, and 1/3 level to diplomacy checks to request favors, or Intimidate checks to demoralize).

Combat Inspiration at level 10 for you means make more saves.


I have a ton of potions which I tend to use with alchemical allocation...biggest one was heroism...Just thinking I could save the alchemical allocation for something else and just make my own.

I have 6000 gp atm honestly didn't really think I could afford the admixture vial...so now my choice is another boro bead or the vial. Reduce person makes me nervous, I believe it shorts out my power attack (yeah I'm dex based with power attack) Sickening strike and gloves of marking is a interesting combo.

Lol thought I had my path, now back to considering

Scarab Sages

Infuse Self. +2 DEX that stacks with everything else you have to buff is pretty great on a Fencing Grace character. I wouldn’t call that a minor benefit.

I like Expanded Inspiration, but it just depends on where you want to go with the character. Also, depending on what your traits are, Additional Traits is worth considering at 9th if you want to boost social skills, to get INT on diplomacy and bluff (for limited, but common uses) through student of philosophy , and whatever else is helpful to you. +2 initiative, or +1 will save. Just depends on what traits you already have and whether or not you’ve already taken one from the category.

If you’re not going to have Infuse Self up, then I actually like Monstrous Physique as a utility spell. Need to fly? Gargoyle. Need to swim? Charda. Need Darkvision? There are tons of options. But it’s definitely something you don’t get as much use out of as a weapon wielder.

EDIT: Oh, and pick up a wand of heightened awareness. You can usually predict within 10 minutes of a combat in PFS (becoming harder to do, but especially in a dungeon). Worst case, you burn a charge and get +2 to all your knowledge skills for 10 minutes (and perception). Best case, you expend heightened awareness for a +4 to initiative. For 2 prestige, you can get a wand that will probably last you into seeker levels from where you are.


So with infuse self you wouldnt get the swim speed from the undine right?

I was really leaning towards the expanded inspiration but the more I look at it, I would really just be using it for diplomacy, perception and sense motive...it's not bad by any means, Diplmacy with student of philosophy and empiricist gives me +16, Sense motive is 14 and perception is 21 (the character currently used heightened awareness for a hour and heroism for 2 hours) So getting the 1d6+1 is really not bad.

Sickening offensive seems really nice since all I have to do is hit and they are sickened (no save.) I am usually buffed and hitting +17/+12 1d6+11(+3 precision) So I could pretty reliably be applying sickened to opponents.

I agree I need to get the wand of heightened. Also need to figure out my "combat cocktail" for the admixture vial

Scarab Sages

Infuse Self doesn’t give you the creature’s movement, no. Nor their natural attacks. Alter self is a good alternative to Monstrous Physique. I’m not sure if there’s a humanoid with a fly speed now. Strip? Not sure if it’s pfs legal to turn into one. If so, you can get most of the utility I was talking about from a 2nd level extract instead of 3rd.

Infuse Self also doesn’t give you the ability to breath in water, which either alter self or monstrous physique would if you’re turning into an aquatic creature.


I recommend sickening offensive. Good debuff and all you have to do his hit which you should have no problem doing.


Ferious Thune wrote:
Infuse Self doesn’t give you (...) their natural attacks.

Why shouldn't it? natural attacks are granted by the polymorph rules, and it's a polymorph spell.

Ferious Thune wrote:
I’m not sure if there’s a humanoid with a fly speed now.

Sure (Strix and Syrinx), although neither would be legal sources in PFS I think (only Bestiary forms are allowed), but the spell doesn't grant fly speed, so it's irrelevant.

Scarab Sages

Derklord wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
Infuse Self doesn’t give you (...) their natural attacks.

Why shouldn't it? natural attacks are granted by the polymorph rules, and it's a polymorph spell.

Ferious Thune wrote:
I’m not sure if there’s a humanoid with a fly speed now.
Sure (Strix and Syrinx), although neither would be legal sources in PFS I think (only Bestiary forms are allowed), but the spell doesn't grant fly speed, so it's irrelevant.

Sorry... had a longer post, then reread yours and realized you said something different.

You are correct. It does look like you would gain any natural attacks that the outsider has, as that is called out in the base polymorph school rules. I'm not sure if any of them have any natural attacks without using alternate racial traits, though.

The original question was about getting the swim speed of the undine, and the answer to that is still no, you don't, because the spell doesn't call out that it gives you any movement types, and the polymorph rules don't include that by default.


Yeah I'm thinking at this point, sickening offensive is the way to go.

I was hoping infuse self would give me give me a tad more, it is still nice but sadly I don't have the book and not sure if is is worth the cash.

Monstrous physique is nice but the duration has me a tad nervous. The one good thing is I already have a bunch of potions that I use with alchemical allocation

So I'm leaning towards Admixture Vial, but I'm realizing I'm not sure what my emergency mix would be...I would say longarm and maybe shield?


Admixture vial options:
Shield + reduce person (defense + defense and it helps your attacks too)
Long arm + enlarge person (reach+reach)
Long arm+ shield (great combo too)


The character falls into a grey space with 18 dex and 14 str (moved up at 8) So reduce person brings my str to 12 which means power attack (I believe) is out and enlarge person boosts my str but lowers my dex which is my main stat...oddly enough it would bring my str and dex both to 16. The shield spell helps but honestly I normally have a 28 AC...the shield would add 2 to that.

The character currently has +1 keen silversheen rapier, MW cold iron rapier, Masterwork heavy mace and Scimitar (plain atm) I kinda made him to cover all damage types..he has a couple oils of magic weapon on hand too. He keeps a pot of bull str just in case and of course if it really mattered I could change my mutagen in a hour.

Funny enough as I'm typing this I wonder if I should change him up (retrain) and get occultist as a one level dip instead...it would fit the character now that I think about it


ekibus wrote:
... reduce person brings my str to 12 which means power attack (I believe) is out ...

Correct

ekibus wrote:
Funny enough as I'm typing this I wonder if I should change him up (retrain) and get occultist as a one level dip instead...it would fit the character now that I think about it

Haha, you and your Occultist dips.

Are you talking about swapping your Swashbuckler dip to Occultist or adding another dip?

Swapping Swashbuckler for Occultist will make you a more offensive fighter (assuming transmutation) but the main loss will be Opportune Parry.

Dipping Sashbuckler and Occultist probably isn't worth it in my opinion.


It's just a thought, definitely not both. Not sure if losing opportune is worth it, the one dip allows me to play him as a competent fencer. The occultist dip would work with his flexibility, giving him more options. I've had a gm look at me odd when he had to pull out a wand of detect magic, also he has a good selection of potions for alchemical allocation. Probably wouldn't do it but still a cool idea

Grand Lodge

I have seen an urban bloodrager dip on this build. It slows down extracts, but does it ever crank damage and accuracy.

A brief aside as to reduce person the last time I read up on it:
I would say that as far the losing power attack goes Ekibus is correct that it is controversial, grey area or unsettled. Though it has been clarified that temporary bonuses provide all the benefits of having and an increased ability score the same has not been made for penalties (at least to my knowledge I may have out of date info) for that reason as a player I treat the penalties as affecting everything but as a PFS GM I feel I'm obligated to let players with penalties treat those penalties as ability damage with the more limited negative effects.


Ok So sickening strike, With my massive 6000g I was gonna go with Admixture vial..but I'm starting to lean towards getting a boro bead 1st and 2nd (currently just have the one) With the left over pick up a composite longbow in case I need

Grand Lodge

I like to save up for an animal tattoo bat or eagle. It's a good way to get flight consistently. Though you have extracts that cover that which make the now less necessary. I played a similar character until 12. I eventually wanted to take weapon finesse so I could make better use of polymorph spells. But, I could not figure out if that was legal.

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