Alchemist Transcription


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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MaxAstro wrote:

This sounds like a 10 Strength alchemist will be strapped for Bulk but functional, and even an 8 Strength alchemist can carry everything in the alchemist's kit and not be encumbered.

That sounds about right, to me.

Does it include a healers tools?


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I'm hoping e a lot of these questions will be answered once the books are more widely available. I'm also hoping that there was some sanity applied in the revision to the playtest rules. I'm concerned about calculated splash being useless once higher tier bombs are available and perpetual infusion usefulness seems wildly variable depending on your spec. I'd prefer something like "during your preparations you can choose two of the following lesser formula and create them using quick alchemy without using a batch of reagents". The formula would have to be in your book and would exclude elixir of life or other items for balance. It would give all alchemists a bomb cantrip if desired plus not be locked into those two items forever.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
graystone wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:

This sounds like a 10 Strength alchemist will be strapped for Bulk but functional, and even an 8 Strength alchemist can carry everything in the alchemist's kit and not be encumbered.

That sounds about right, to me.

Does it include a healers tools?

A Str 10 Alchemist carrying everything in the alchemist's kit and a set of healer's tools would be at 5.6 Bulk and not encumbered.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:


Quote:

Alchemist kit costs 9gp 6sp and is 4 bulk, 6 light.

Studded leather armor with dagger, sling with 20 bullets. Adventurers pack, alchemist tools, bandolier,crafters book, 2 sets of cantrips and a sheath.

I assume that 'cantrips' is a typo,

I'm 99% sure it's 2 sets of caltrops


MaxAstro wrote:
graystone wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:

This sounds like a 10 Strength alchemist will be strapped for Bulk but functional, and even an 8 Strength alchemist can carry everything in the alchemist's kit and not be encumbered.

That sounds about right, to me.

Does it include a healers tools?
A Str 10 Alchemist carrying everything in the alchemist's kit and a set of healer's tools would be at 5.6 Bulk and not encumbered.

Sure... And be naked. Sounds awesome! I might even be able to carry a few healing elixirs before I slow down! And I can have the same crappy backup weapons a bomber alchemist has! Just imagine how much fun a halfling or gnome Chirurgeon can have! :P

PS: In case that's not clear, that's some sarcasm... The more I hear, the more the game is pushing me away from a mundane healer towards a spellcaster: they at least get a cantrip that's not a typo and doesn't have 3+ bulk of 'casting gear' to deal with.

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:

Sure... And be naked. Sounds awesome! I might even be able to carry a few healing elixirs before I slow down! And I can have the same crappy backup weapons a bomber alchemist has! Just imagine how much fun a halfling or gnome Chirurgeon can have! :P

PS: In case that's not clear, that's some sarcasm... The more I hear, the more the game is pushing me away from a mundane healer towards a spellcaster: they at least get a cantrip that's not a typo and doesn't have 3+ bulk of 'casting gear' to deal with.

Normal clothing has no Bulk in PF2.

But yes, if you want to use a Healer's Kit and an Alchemist's Kit both in combat (note: this is actually a very specific niche combination requiring Skill Feat support to even be useful) you are doing 1d6 damage instead of 1d8. At least until 2nd level when you can get a Skill Feat to fix the issue if you like.

That's...not actually enormously restrictive. Doing slightly less damage to have two different ways to heal people in combat instead of one is just not an unreasonable price to pay. And is one paid only if you have Str 10.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
is just not an unreasonable price to pay.

Whether or not it's reasonable or manageable I think is kind of besides the point. That the alchemist is sitting so dangerously close to being encumbered just from carrying around their basic equipment in general just kind of feels a bit much.

Telling someone to downgrade their weapon and/or not carry any additional gear at all just to stay unencumbered with their basic kit feels like it's only emphasizing graystone's point rather than refuting it.

The baseline stuff an alchemist is expected to carry just kind of feels heavier than it needs to be.

To be entirely honest, this kind of feels like a general problem with the Alchemist. It's not a terrible class, but it feels like there's too much of trying to make it work in spite of its own mechanics rather than because of them. Everything from stat generation to managing encumbrance to figuring out how to properly heal people as a chirurgeon, managing your limited offensive resources to even just figuring out how to make triple alchemy work at all.

It seems to stand in stark contrast to the rest of PF2 where classes kind of just work out of the box pretty naturally.

Again, I'm not saying it's bad or unplayable, it just reminds me a lot more of 3.5 than what PF2 is supposed to be.


Is an adventurer's pack just the pack in which you carry your stuff, or does it also abstract the various other things you would want to have during the day as an adventurer?

Since it seems we could save some weight by offloading the bedroll, kettle, bowl, spoon, rope, etc. on to someone who can manage it more easily.

The Exchange

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I feel like compared to the other classes, Alchemist just isn't quite 'there' yet. It still needs some adjusting to make it viable next to the other classes who can do their thing all day. There's a lot of low hanging fruit there that will hopefully be plucked with errata. A simple fix for the healer's kit + equipment bulk issue would've been for the Chirurugeon to be able to use their alchemist's kit as a healer's kit. I also think their temp alchemical items shouldn't weigh as much as their crafted equivalent. They're already temp items that expire in a day so it would be easy to say they're made of lesser ingredients and no matter how many you create from Infused Reagents they still maintain that same bulk L.

My biggest concern is their staying power. They're the only class whose main ability isn't usable throughout the day. A fighter can always swing his sword and a caster can always throw a cantrip but Alchemists really have to ration their creations till level 5 where they get the minor bump of extra items. It really sucks they don't get something equivalent to focus powers.

EDIT: Also, I know I mentioned it already but it's still baffling that for all of the talk of future proofing classes, they just kind of future proofed the Alchemist out of getting any new items that work with their abilities. Their powers will always only work for these select items no matter how many new books come out.


Eoni wrote:
My biggest concern is their staying power.

I agree. Their scaling is weird and their damage is hard to calculate. How many times do people plan to be fighting hordes of clustered monsters?

Also their utility is fairly limited. The only mutagens that stick out are the one giving you temp HP, concealment, and the ranged +to hit Item bonus.

On a side note, I REALLLy tried to make having a tiny pet monkey Familiar making bombs for you work. I don't really see much benefit though, unless anything the Monkey is holding you can take/use for free?

Liberty's Edge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

Is an adventurer's pack just the pack in which you carry your stuff, or does it also abstract the various other things you would want to have during the day as an adventurer?

Since it seems we could save some weight by offloading the bedroll, kettle, bowl, spoon, rope, etc. on to someone who can manage it more easily.

According to people who have the book, it's the latter (it includes 50 feet of rope and two weeks rations among other things). It's only a total of 1 Bulk according to Mark Seifter, though, so ditching it entirely only drops Bulk by 1.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
But yes, if you want to use a Healer's Kit and an Alchemist's Kit both in combat (note: this is actually a very specific niche combination requiring Skill Feat support to even be useful

Using your special class ability with medicine in combat doesn't feel super niche to me: it seems like a no brainer for a Chirurgeon acting as the main healer. This is especially true when holding extra elixirs to use on other people could encumber you... Secondly, I'm not a fan of passing off equipment as a whole for things you're going to use all the time out of combat.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
That's...not actually enormously restrictive. Doing slightly less damage to have two different ways to heal people in combat instead of one is just not an unreasonable price to pay. And is one paid only if you have Str 10.

It's WAY more of a restriction than if I played another healer. I'm not required to take a feat to make a sorcerer or a cleric healer so I can move unencumbered or take more str to carry a holy symbol... I don't have to downgrade weapons as I can use a cantrip to attack if I'm not healing or up my str or take feats to move around.


It seems like "someone with bulk to spare can carry the stuff you will never want during combat (e.g. a bedroll and a cookpot, and your rations), and in exchange you agree to heal them" is something that can work in practice.


shroudb wrote:
Insight wrote:
The basic gear from an alchemist weighs 4 bulk (6 light) which is far enough under a Strength 10 character’s max of 5 bulk (9 light) given what all the basic gear includes (including armor, tools, and formula book, amongst other gear). That’s enough extra capacity to carry another weapon or item of 1 bulk, or you could just select up to 13 additional light bulk items without being encumbered.

alchemists don't have cantrips, so it's not "another" weapon. It's their MAIN weapon, those usually are around 1+ bulk (a simple crossbow and it's bolt as an example)

i would love a breakdown of that 4.6 as well, seeing as armor alone is 1, kit is 2 (confirmed), formula book is 1 (playtest). Do you imply that a backpack with all your adventuring gear is just 0.6 bulk?

even then, with the inclusion of the mandatory weapon (since they don't have other at will methods of attack except a weapon) that makes them encumbered if they use just 2/5 of their starting reagents they are already encumbered. (+0,1 from reagents, +0,2 per reagent spent for 2 extracts/bombs/whatever)

so, even IF this was the case, where i still doubt that adventuring gear is just 0.5 bulk, they STILL can't even use half of their reagents.

Bulk issues are one reason in the play test I went with a sling. Light to carry and easy to get more rocks to fling so you don't have to prestock up on a ton of ammunition.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
It seems like "someone with bulk to spare can carry the stuff you will never want during combat (e.g. a bedroll and a cookpot, and your rations), and in exchange you agree to heal them" is something that can work in practice.

That kind of stuff is better than shuffling a healers kit back and forth after each and every combat to Treat Wounds. And of course this ALL assumes that there is someone that has lots of extra bulk to carry and that's something I can't assume, just like I can't assume I'd be able to bring an a pack ox into every adventure so I can use my abilities.

kaid wrote:
Bulk issues are one reason in the play test I went with a sling. Light to carry and easy to get more rocks to fling so you don't have to prestock up on a ton of ammunition.

2 things. I'd pick the crossbow because of the range more than the damage. Second, there were NO rules in the playtest for using rocks in a sling: at best it's an improvised weapon if the Dm agrees.

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
Using your special class ability with medicine in combat doesn't feel super niche to me: it seems like a no brainer for a Chirurgeon acting as the main healer. This is especially true when holding extra elixirs to use on other people could encumber you...

The only in-combat usage of a Healer's Kit, to my knowledge, is Treat Wounds (I guess maybe also stabilizing people? I'm not sure that's necessary given the other options to do that, though)...and only if you have a specific Skill Feat. So...this is the cross section of a very specific build (ranged focused Str 10 Chirugeon who doesn't use bombs) with a specific Skill Feat to get the ability to use Treat Wounds in-combat.

That's a very thematically sound build, but it's not 'all Alchemists' nor 'all Alchemists focused on healing' nor even 'all Chirugeons'. Not even close.

graystone wrote:
Secondly, I'm not a fan of passing off equipment as a whole for things you're going to use all the time out of combat.

Well, that's where a Bag of Holding comes in...or several other possibilities.

graystone wrote:
It's WAY more of a restriction than if I played another healer.

Is it? It's a restriction, certainly. Whether it's more of one than, say, a Divine Sorcerer's complete inability to wear armor without investing a Feat, is something I'm not at all sure is true.

graystone wrote:
I'm not required to take a feat to make a sorcerer or a cleric healer so I can move unencumbered or take more str to carry a holy symbol... I don't have to downgrade weapons as I can use a cantrip to attack if I'm not healing or up my str or take feats to move around.

No, they have other limitations entirely.


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

To answer a couple of things:
It's two sets of caltrops, not cantrips, as was kinda obvious.

One option for more carry weight is the hefty hauler feat for +2 bulk, which Mark has mentioned in various places, and unlike the playtest no longer has a Str prereq (just trained in Athletics).

Overall I think it's too early to make a call on the final disposition of alchemists. They'll really benefit by having more alchemical items printed in future books. They might be the single class that I'm least excited about, but I think I could have a lot of fun as a bomber. I've never been super interested in the mutagens (or the PF1 dips to get them) though they're clearly good. I still think alchemist mutagens are clearly better than the playtest, where you had weird onset times and weird rarity and whatnot.

I think very few people will pick chirugeon, but I could be wrong, since healers gonna heal, and I've historically been bad at predicting what healer/support-oriented players pick.

For me in PF1, alchemists were a class where you could get some truly bizarre options and just be really weird with lots of (mostly useless) limbs and clones and whatever. These new alchemists just need more weird alchemical tools and elixirs printed and I'll like them more.

Plus, I think it'd be cool to multiclass into ranger and get some daily snare resources, which is actually suggested in the MC descriptions, because the book overall is just really well thought out.


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I think the only one that is really locked out is the str-penalty ancestry who invests nothing in strength and who wants constant access to a second skill kit.

But "is willing to invest nothing in strength" being less appealing than it used to be is kind of a good thing.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Well, that's where a Bag of Holding comes in...or several other possibilities.

You DO know that the bag itself weighs a bulk right? it's exacerbating the weight issue, not solving it when I'm already over base bulk with just combat items. And that's just once I get to 5th level to get the item even if I manage to get the bulk for it...

As to the rest of your post, I'll agree to disagree: If you're not seeing my point at this stage, I don't know what to say.


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Not so much a point as an obtuse

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
You DO know that the bag itself weighs a bulk right? it's exacerbating the weight issue, not solving it when I'm already over base bulk with just combat items.

You're not, though. 1 Bulk Armor + L Bulk Book + L Bulk Dagger + 1 Bulk Crossbow = 2.2 Bulk.

The rest would go in the bag, dropping your total Bulk to 3.2 (plus ammo). You then pull out either of the Kits at need (something you needed to do anyway). I guess you might need a Haversack to do so quickly if a Bag of Holding takes more actions than a backpack to take stuff out of.

graystone wrote:
And that's just once I get to 5th level to get the item even if I manage to get the bulk for it...

This is fair enough. Of course, I'm inclined to think going with a sling for most of this time is probably workable.

graystone wrote:
As to the rest of your post, I'll agree to disagree: If you're not seeing my point at this stage, I don't know what to say.

It's not that I don't see your point, it's that I think you're missing the forest for a tree. Yes, this is an inconvenient and non-ideal situation, but it's hardly the only one in the game and it is very specific to your particular build.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I feel like it's reasonable that if you want to carry a lot of weapons, kits, and other equipment beyond what an average member of that class would carry, you might need to either put some points into strength or invest in things like the aforementioned "hefty hauler".


Studded Leather armor give some penalties to checks (-1 I think) if you don't have 12 STR, so that is something to consider as well.


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thewastedwalrus wrote:
I feel like it's reasonable that if you want to carry a lot of weapons, kits, and other equipment beyond what an average member of that class would carry

Sure, but graystone isn't carrying a "lot" of other equipment. This hypothetical character is carrying the basic supplies the class needs... plus one thing that isn't even particularly outlandish.

I see a lot of people talking about how great it is that strength is more relevant, but this is kind of an alchemist specific thing.

Would you guys be happy if Paizo made wizards carry around 2 bulk component pouches? Should we go start a thread lobbying for that?


Deadmanwalking wrote:

You're not, though. 1 Bulk Armor + L Bulk Book + L Bulk Dagger + 1 Bulk Crossbow = 2.2 Bulk.

The rest would go in the bag, dropping your total Bulk to 3.2 (plus ammo). You then pull out either of the Kits at need (something you needed to do anyway). I guess you might need a Haversack to do so quickly if a Bag of Holding takes more actions than a backpack to take stuff out of.

How does that work? You need 2 hands to use the bag and an action: so were does the kit go when you need to use it as both hands are in use? And even if you get into your hand, it's an extra action added to every in combat use and then another to put it away... It doesn't seem overly useful, in practice, during combat.

thewastedwalrus wrote:
I feel like it's reasonable that if you want to carry a lot of weapons, kits, and other equipment beyond what an average member of that class would carry, you might need to either put some points into strength or invest in things like the aforementioned "hefty hauler".

If that's what I actually wanted to do, I'd agree with you... I just want to wear some armor, use a single crossbow and carry the tools i need to use my class abilities though: I'm NOT looking for extra or "beyond what an average member of that class would carry".


Squiggit wrote:

I see a lot of people talking about how great it is that strength is more relevant, but this is kind of an alchemist specific thing.

Would you guys be happy if Paizo made wizards carry around 2 bulk component pouches? Should we go start a thread lobbying for that?

*nods" This is the crux to me: the 2 bulk so you can 'cast' your healing and then the bulk for the ability to use medicine, L for the book: that subclass of alchemist already requires you to have 3+ bulk set aside before you even pick anything for your character.

I tried pointing this out but just got told, other classes "have other limitations entirely". Sure, but THAT'S my point. Alchemist for some reason gets shackled with extra bulk cuz 'realism' while the other classes limitations seems less burdensome and not something that requires extra feats or special stat placement to overcome.


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The thing is that Alchemist is not special in that regard, a rogue finesse striker dual wielding would have Armor (1B), 2 short sword (2B), shortbow(1B), adventure bag (1B) and that not including thieves tool and they would want stuff like a grappling hook as well.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

If this were a slightly different thread, we'd be arguing about ways to keep strength from being a dump stat on casters and the like that don't need it.

Graystone has issues with bulk as an overall mechanic, so the fact that sometimes it becomes an issue for certain characters is not something where everyone will see eye to eye.

I do think that alchemists are in a position where they're potentially set up to struggle the most if they're not paying attention to bulk (assuming they're not built for mutagen-powered smashing, which would want Str anyway). There are several mechanically good and sufficiently flavorful options to address it, beyond the very straightforward approach of just going "oh well, I guess I need to put one of my four stat increases into strength this level" that it seems a lot of us see as perfectly fine, too.


Kyrone wrote:
The thing is that Alchemist is not special in that regard, a rogue finesse striker dual wielding would have Armor (1B), 2 short sword (2B), shortbow(1B), adventure bag (1B) and that not including thieves tool and they would want stuff like a grappling hook as well.

Shortswords are L. A halfling with an 8 str [4 bulk] and it's 3 bulk and 4 L WITH thieves tools AND a grappling hook... SO it doesn't seem alike IMO.


Kyrone wrote:
The thing is that Alchemist is not special in that regard, a rogue finesse striker dual wielding would have Armor (1B), 2 short sword (2B), shortbow(1B), adventure bag (1B) and that not including thieves tool and they would want stuff like a grappling hook as well.

In the playtest the shortsword was 1L as were thieves tools, did they increase this?

Since I had a 10 str rogue in the playtest which had a 2B weapon, and 1B armor, but managed because the rest of her stuff was light bulk.
What puts our hypothetical chirugeon behind the 8-ball is that alchemist's tools are 2B.


RicoTheBold wrote:
If this were a slightly different thread, we'd be arguing about ways to keep strength from being a dump stat on casters and the like that don't need it.

If you want to make a thread talking about the value of strength as a whole within the system that's pretty valid. Again though, this isn't really a system wide paradigm shift, it's alchemist's baseline gear being weirdly heavy compared to the baseline gear of other castery classes.

And hell, the alchemist being talked about here isn't even dumping strength at all, they're sitting at the baseline for the number.

An actual low strength alchemist on the other hand is practically not even a functional character concept anymore.

RicoTheBold wrote:
beyond the very straightforward approach of just going "oh well, I guess I need to put one of my four stat increases into strength this level" that it seems a lot of us see as perfectly fine, too.

I mean yeah, that's a fine approach to things if that's what you want to do, but I don't think the notion of the guy sitting in the back brewing potions not being particularly strong is as outlandish of an idea as some people in this thread seem to be treating it as.


Regarding alchemists and strength it appears that the strength demand by specialty is:

Mutagenists- Lots, you would like to smash faces
Bombers- Very little need for it, 8 is probably fine once you get endless bombs.
Chirugeons- Some, your kits are heavy.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Squiggit wrote:
RicoTheBold wrote:
beyond the very straightforward approach of just going "oh well, I guess I need to put one of my four stat increases into strength this level" that it seems a lot of us see as perfectly fine, too.
I mean yeah, that's a fine approach to things if that's what you want to do, but I don't think the notion of the guy sitting in the back brewing potions not being particularly strong is as outlandish of an idea as some people in this thread seem to be treating it as.

I think the guy with low Strength being limited in gear choices due to low Strength is not that outlandish of an idea... If anything, I'd prefer casters et al. had more reasons to care about Strength.

Liberty's Edge

Squiggit wrote:
Sure, but graystone isn't carrying a "lot" of other equipment. This hypothetical character is carrying the basic supplies the class needs... plus one thing that isn't even particularly outlandish.

It's actually two things. A Healer's Kit or Crossbow on top of the Alchemist's Kit is fine. It's only if you want both that you need additional stuff.

graystone wrote:
How does that work? You need 2 hands to use the bag and an action: so were does the kit go when you need to use it as both hands are in use? And even if you get into your hand, it's an extra action added to every in combat use and then another to put it away... It doesn't seem overly useful, in practice, during combat.

Huh. You're right. That's annoying. Still, as mentioned a Feat or a single ability boost solves the problem (assuming they haven't made Bags of Holding more user friendly, anyway).

And you can get it down to 4.2 Bulk (plus ammo) total just by putting the Alchemist's Tools in the Bag. Needing to stop and take a few actions (0 to drop crossbow, one to open bag and pull out tools, one to make item, one to use item, 0 to drop the kit, one to pick up crossbow next turn...4 action sequence) to make new Alchemical Items (the only thing you need Alchemist Tools for) is not exactly an unendurable hardship given how often you need that in combat (it's not very often).


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Squiggit wrote:
RicoTheBold wrote:
If this were a slightly different thread, we'd be arguing about ways to keep strength from being a dump stat on casters and the like that don't need it.

If you want to make a thread talking about the value of strength as a whole within the system that's pretty valid. Again though, this isn't really a system wide paradigm shift, it's alchemist's baseline gear being weirdly heavy compared to the baseline gear of other castery classes.

And hell, the alchemist being talked about here isn't even dumping strength at all, they're sitting at the baseline for the number.

An actual low strength alchemist on the other hand is practically not even a functional character concept anymore.

RicoTheBold wrote:
beyond the very straightforward approach of just going "oh well, I guess I need to put one of my four stat increases into strength this level" that it seems a lot of us see as perfectly fine, too.
I mean yeah, that's a fine approach to things if that's what you want to do, but I don't think the notion of the guy sitting in the back brewing potions not being particularly strong is as outlandish of an idea as some people in this thread seem to be treating it as.

I just thought it was a funny quirk of the discussion, since I've seen those threads before.

There's also a huge gulf between "low-strength alchemist loaded down with multiple weapon options is practically not even a functional character concept" and the way I'd expect one of my players to handle stuff. Oh, things are heavy? Make the hard choice and leave something behind. Ask a buddy to carry something you don't need in combat - or hell, even if you do, it's actually faster to get something out of someone else's backpack than your own because you don't have to take it off first. Distribute all the extra stuff you've brewed to your party members to use. Use your strength mutagen in combat. Buy a horse. Take the skill feat. Just take the encumbrance penalties of -10 to speed and clumsy 1.

There are just sooooo many options, even with the minimum strength of 8, that it's not so much that it's an outlandish idea to have low strength as it is that it's just not a big deal.


I'd like to point out that who uses his most iconic equipment set consisting of a rapier, studded leather, shortbow, and an instrument is already at 4 bulk. An archer (in the playtest at least) who carried both a shortbow and longbow with the same armor is 4 bulk without touching melee weapons. Even the strength based classes have their advantage offset by the higher bulk of two handed weapons and heavy armor.

Really, everyone but the monk, sorcerer, and wizard has to deal with this. And the last two are extremely fragile for not "needing" armor.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
graystone wrote:
How does that work? You need 2 hands to use the bag and an action: so were does the kit go when you need to use it as both hands are in use? And even if you get into your hand, it's an extra action added to every in combat use and then another to put it away... It doesn't seem overly useful, in practice, during combat.

Huh. You're right. That's annoying. Still, as mentioned a Feat or a single ability boost solves the problem (assuming they haven't made Bags of Holding more user friendly, anyway).

Bandoliers actually can hold 8 light items OR a full set of tools to allow you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them. There's a reason they're included in the default alchemist loadout.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If having an 8 or 10 in Strength is so detrimental to running an alchemist, perhaps you could put enough points into it to (12-14) to get the heavier weapon and additional gear. You could take these points from one of Constitution, Dexterity, or Wisdom, since it appears there isn't the same complaint about these stats leading to a non-functional character if they were dumped to 8.

Unless you also believe that having an 8 or 10 in Constitution, Dexterity, or Wisdom would also be unduly detrimental to the class?

Liberty's Edge

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RicoTheBold wrote:
Bandoliers actually can hold 8 light items OR a full set of tools to allow you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them. There's a reason they're included in the default alchemist loadout.

Okay, that's super neat. And a good reason not to use the Bag of Holding on the Tools (you can buy a second one for the second set).

Insight wrote:
Unless you also believe that having an 8 or 10 in Constitution, Dexterity, or Wisdom would also be unduly detrimental to the class?

Well, as a ranged character, Dex is sorta integral.

That said, I'm not sure what the problem with Str 12, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 10 is.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

BTW, are alchemist bomb attacks made with Dexterity or Intelligence?


Well if they don't use dex then you'll likely see your character start with 18 Int and 16 Str.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Reziburno25 wrote:
Well if they don't use dex then you'll likely see your character start with 18 Int and 16 Str.

For my first alchemist, that was my plan anyways.


I was thinking about strength-builds aswell. I am not sure why people are marrying the non-bombers to dex. If you are a combat medic, in particular, who may frequently rush into melee, a melee weapon seems reasonable.

Liberty's Edge

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Insight wrote:
BTW, are alchemist bomb attacks made with Dexterity or Intelligence?

Dexterity, by all accounts.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Needing to stop and take a few actions (0 to drop crossbow, one to open bag and pull out tools, one to make item, one to use item, 0 to drop the kit, one to pick up crossbow next turn...4 action sequence) to make new Alchemical Items (the only thing you need Alchemist Tools for) is not exactly an unendurable hardship given how often you need that in combat (it's not very often).

Oh, I'm sure it's doable but is seems like a whole horse and pony show to juggle it all when the cleric just heals everyone in 30' with less actions. :P

Captain Morgan wrote:
I'd like to point out that who uses his most iconic equipment set consisting of a rapier, studded leather, shortbow, and an instrument is already at 4 bulk. An archer (in the playtest at least) who carried both a shortbow and longbow with the same armor is 4 bulk without touching melee weapons. Even the strength based classes have their advantage offset by the higher bulk of two handed weapons and heavy armor.

I don't see this as an issue: you can get the basics with an 8 str [rapier, studded leather, shortbow, and an instrument]. You want extras, you do something to boost it: IMO that's fair. MY issue is the alchemist I want to build with the basics is 3 bulk behind with it's tools. It'd be like that instrument being 3 bulk by itself.

RicoTheBold wrote:
Bandoliers actually can hold 8 light items OR a full set of tools to allow you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them. There's a reason they're included in the default alchemist loadout.

Ok, that's cool, though it's more of a reason NOT to hide them away in a bag of holding and a Chirurgeon would want an extra one for healing tools.

Leotamer wrote:
I was thinking about strength-builds aswell. I am not sure why people are marrying the non-bombers to dex. If you are a combat medic, in particular, who may frequently rush into melee, a melee weapon seems reasonable.

Maybe they want an AC that'll allow them to survive long enough to heal someone? And ranged combat allows for better mixing of actions as less movement is needed. With no AoO anymore, there is less of a need to have a melee attack.

For Mutagenist, they could go more str but I don't see them with very low dex either as they only have light armor.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
That said, I'm not sure what the problem with Str 12, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 10 is.

No problem that I know of, I just know for myself I don't want to be FORCED to take that to function. Myself, I'd rather have a 12 con or cha as I don't plan on using melee/propulsive weapons and with follow the expert, I don't really need an extra +1 for the single str skill. A 12 str would ONLY be there for bulk.

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
Oh, I'm sure it's doable but is seems like a whole horse and pony show to juggle it all when the cleric just heals everyone in 30' with less actions. :P

You don't need to do this to heal, just to make custom items. Frankly, I'd expect it to rarely be used on healing (at least at low levels), and there are other solutions at higher levels.

graystone wrote:
Maybe they want an AC that'll allow them to survive long enough to heal someone? And ranged combat allows for better mixing of actions as less movement is needed. With no AoO anymore, there is less of a need to have a melee attack.

This seems fair enough to me. I'm not sure this concept requires a crossbow rather than a sling, though. The sling's action economy is enough better I might go with it even ignoring Bulk (since it's one handed, leaving the other free to do stuff without action economy issues).

graystone wrote:
For Mutagenist, they could go more str but I don't see them with very low dex either as they only have light armor.

Medium Armor is only one General Feat away, so A low Dex Mutagenist can be up to par on AC by 3rd level (1st level if Human).

graystone wrote:
No problem that I know of, I just know for myself I don't want to be FORCED to take that to function. Myself, I'd rather have a 12 con or cha as I don't plan on using melee/propulsive weapons and with follow the expert, I don't really need an extra +1 for the single str skill. A 12 str would ONLY be there for bulk.

It would apparently also eliminate the ACP of your armor, so that's relevant.

And what would Cha be for? One or two skills? And Con would be for one Save and HP. Bulk being on par with other useful things in this vein (and thus making Str on par with other stats) seems like a good thing.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
You don't need to do this to heal, just to make custom items. Frankly, I'd expect it to rarely be used on healing (at least at low levels), and there are other solutions at higher levels.

I'd expect to more often need to do it with battle medic or first aid: that said the off bomb to trigger vulnerability is a possibility.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
I'm not sure this concept requires a crossbow rather than a sling, though.

The action economy is the same [reload 1] and it's range is 120' vs a slings 50': oddly, the higher your strength is at 1st, the more tempting a sling is as you add in your str. IMO, the crossbow means it's more feasible to feed someone an elixir and still be in range without extra movement.

PS: were you thinking heavy crossbow?

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Medium Armor is only one General Feat away, so A low Dex Mutagenist can be up to par on AC by 3rd level (1st level if Human).

Oh, sure I was talking base: getting better/heavier armor options of course opens up for lower dex and higher str.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

It would apparently also eliminate the ACP of your armor, so that's relevant.

And what would Cha be for? One or two skills? And Con would be for one Save and HP. Bulk being on par with other useful things in this vein seems like a good thing.

Str: ACP elimination might be something that WOULD make me look at str another time: depends how it works.

Con: saves are important and with crit fails, it's hard to pass up on a better chance to crit succeed, and succeed and a lower chance to fail and crit fail. Hp's are gravy.

Cha: the alchemist gets loads of skills and FAR more than you'll be able to increase latter on: as such, getting some skills into the range were you can Aid someone else is valuable. It pairs well with things like Cooperative Nature that boost aid checks: another option is to not take them as trained and get one of the feats that allows you to add level back on untrained skills, making it mich easier to hit those Aid DC's.

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
I'd expect to more often need to do it with battle medic or first aid: that said the off bomb to trigger vulnerability is a possibility.

Ah! My point was that you could have the Healer's Tools in a bandolier, and then have only the Alchemist's Tools (and the Adventurer's Pack) in the bag. The Bulk numbers then work out quite easily (since that saves 2 Bulk), and you only need to go to the Bag for making items.

graystone wrote:

The action economy is the same [reload 1] and it's range is 120' vs a slings 50': oddly, the higher your strength is at 1st, the more tempting a sling is as you add in your str. IMO, the crossbow means it's more feasible to feed someone an elixir and still be in range without extra movement.

PS: were you thinking heavy crossbow?

The action economy advantage I was thinking of was that slings are one-handed and crossbows are two-handed, which matters since while dropping one hand off a crossbow is free, putting it back on is an action.

graystone wrote:
Oh, sure I was talking base: getting better/heavier armor options of course opens up for lower dex and higher str.

Sure, just noting the option.

graystone wrote:
Str: ACP elimination might be something that WOULD make me look at str another time: depends how it works.

Well, this is officially a thing. Someone upthread mentioned a -1 ACP on Studded Leather, which Str 12 eliminates.

graystone wrote:
Con: saves are important and with crit fails, it's hard to pass up on a better chance to crit succeed, and succeed and a lower chance to fail and crit fail. Hp's are gravy.

Alchemists have really good Fort Saves, though. It's actually their best Save. They can thus afford not to worry about it all that much.

graystone wrote:
Cha: the alchemist gets loads of skills and FAR more than you'll be able to increase latter on: as such, getting some skills into the range were you can Aid someone else is valuable. It pairs well with things like Cooperative Nature that boost aid checks: another option is to not take them as trained and get one of the feats that allows you to add level back on untrained skills, making it mich easier to hit those Aid DC's.

These are all good things to do, but once you have Str 12, you never need to worry about it again, meaning you can use level ups in Con, or Cha, or whatever and still be fine.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The ACP elimination from Str is a per-armor rating. If you have that Str, you don't take the ACP, and the speed reduction is reduced by 5. It's good enough and simple enough that it's basically a "you should absolutely do this" kind of thing if you're planning on wearing any armor. The numbers for light armor are all 10 or 12, so it's not hard to get. Medium is 14 or 16, heavy is 16 or 18.

Edit: Padded doesn't have an ACP, so while it has a Strength rating of 10 it doesn't actually mean anything.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Ah! My point was that you could have the Healer's Tools in a bandolier, and then have only the Alchemist's Tools (and the Adventurer's Pack) in the bag. The Bulk numbers then work out quite easily (since that saves 2 Bulk), and you only need to go to the Bag for making items.

That runs into the issue of the rolls being craft checks: It seems to me that you use the item bonuses from the alchemy tools and not any you get from the healers tools.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
The action economy advantage I was thinking of was that slings are one-handed and crossbows are two-handed, which matters since while dropping one hand off a crossbow is free, putting it back on is an action.

That's not an issue unless they changed things: "When you spend the last action required to reload a weapon you’re holding, as part of that action, you can place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon normally."

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Well, this is officially a thing. Someone upthread mentioned a -1 ACP on Studded Leather, which Str 12 eliminates.

Yep know it's a thing, but I want to see it myself, and look at the exact wording, compare armors and such before I comment further on it. I'm not going to say it's enough to tempt me to take str until I see the whole thing.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Alchemists have really good Fort Saves, though. It's actually their best Save. They can thus afford not to worry about it all that much.

Best saves + no stat bonus seems to average out to... well average: Reflex might end up higher on a lot of alchemists so It doesn't seem like a bad option.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
These are all good things to do, but once you have Str 12, you never need to worry about it again, meaning you can use level ups in Con, or Cha, or whatever and still be fine.

I'm looking at it the other way: in a few levels I might not need the 12 str anymore. Special materials for armor/weapons, items like the old mule back cords or even a wand of ant haul. Can I retrain a stat boost after I take one?

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