| Roco |
As it says on the tin.
I'm theory crafting a mouser swashbuckler build and am curious when movement stopping abilities trigger.
The mouser allows you to be in the enemies square and share it, giving the enemy some disadvantages.
But it occured to me they could just take a 5ft step away and attack a friend regardless, even if I had step up it wouldn't matter (unless I was tiny, in which case moving into enemy squares is free to do, which as a small race I plan to use wands of reduce person to be tiny when needed). But then I realized I have no means to stop them from leaving if they just move! It triggers at AoO so I could trip them potentially but... Does tripping them leave them in the square they started or the square next? I'm not sure about the normal instance of this, let alone the mouser ability saying "When they ATTEMPT to move they provoke"
So I'm curious, when does trip or stand still or the mouser ability trigger?
1) Trip and Standstill trigger on the space after the threatened space they leave, thus dropping or stopping them 10' away from the target (or in a mouser's case 5' )
2) same as 1 but the mouser ability specifying "attempt" means you drop/freeze in place before ever getting to move.
3) both regular rules and mouser rules stop or trip the person in the square they try to leave, giving them no movement.
| avr |
AoOs occur before completing the action that triggers them. In the case of movement this means before they move out of the square, which is important because otherwise they could be out of your reach when you get to take the AoO and so you wouldn't get to effectively use the AoO.
That's the 3rd of your options as I read them.
| Roco |
AoOs occur before completing the action that triggers them. In the case of movement this means before they move out of the square, which is important because otherwise they could be out of your reach when you get to take the AoO and so you wouldn't get to effectively use the AoO.
That's the 3rd of your options as I read them.
Ah! Excellent. That will make being a mouser a bit more interesting.
Not to decide if I want stand still or improved trip.. hmm
| Pizza Lord |
[Now] to decide if I want stand still or improved trip.. hmm
Looking at the options:
Stand Still will stop them from moving if you win a combat maneuver check. Pretty much straightforward.Tripping definitely makes the foe far easier to defeat, making them prone so your allies have an easier time beating on them and giving tham an attack penalty until they stand (taking an action and provoking new AoOs). However, unless you get an ability that says otherwise, you cannot trip a foe more than one size larger than you (and if you reduce your size, that's only going to restrict that more). Also, if you fail your check too much, they can trip you in return instead. Now, Improved Trip will add a +2 to your trip attempts and give you a +2 bonus to avoid being tripped if you fail and also tripping weapons are not too hard to find (though you'd need a light or one-handed piercing one to work with most other mouser abilities unless you are switching out).
Having said that, there's a few other feats you could take that will increase the effectiveness of trips (not so much finding one that combos with Stand Still); Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp, etc. (the list is pretty long). So just have to consider the options.
| shaventalz |
Roco wrote:[Now] to decide if I want stand still or improved trip.. hmm..and also tripping weapons are not too hard to find (though you'd need a light or one-handed piercing one to work with most other mouser abilities unless you are switching out).
Note that a "trip weapon" doesn't actually add to your trip rolls. It just allows you, if you fail badly enough, to disarm yourself rather than tripping yourself.
Keep in mind that CMD tends to scale more quickly than your attack modifier, especially if the opponent isn't "humanoid-with-class-levels." Trip has more bonuses available, (and every little bit helps), but Stand Still doesn't have the "oops I tripped myself" flaw if you misjudge your opponent or dice. Stand Still also doesn't have huge swaths of enemy types that are simply immune (flying, snake-like, etc.)
I would strongly suggest getting a Dueling weapon (the version from the PFS Field Guide.) As written, it probably doesn't work with Stand Still (it's a CMB check, not an actual maneuver), but I'd imagine most GMs would allow it.
| Roco |
Pizza Lord wrote:Roco wrote:[Now] to decide if I want stand still or improved trip.. hmm..and also tripping weapons are not too hard to find (though you'd need a light or one-handed piercing one to work with most other mouser abilities unless you are switching out).Note that a "trip weapon" doesn't actually add to your trip rolls. It just allows you, if you fail badly enough, to disarm yourself rather than tripping yourself.
Keep in mind that CMD tends to scale more quickly than your attack modifier, especially if the opponent isn't "humanoid-with-class-levels." Trip has more bonuses available, (and every little bit helps), but Stand Still doesn't have the "oops I tripped myself" flaw if you misjudge your opponent or dice. Stand Still also doesn't have huge swaths of enemy types that are simply immune (flying, snake-like, etc.)
I would strongly suggest getting a Dueling weapon (the version from the PFS Field Guide.) As written, it probably doesn't work with Stand Still (it's a CMB check, not an actual maneuver), but I'd imagine most GMs would allow it.
Ya, CMD scales pretty darn high. Which is why I'm thinking of picking up improved trip just so I don't provoke and get a +2 (along with it keying off my weapon attack rather than my horribly low CMB)
That being said, when I'm tiny, my CMB keys off dex so stand still is actually quite viable. It also does stop many more things that are immune to trip. Though, tbh, if something can fly I can't really stop it anyhow unless it got RIGHT next to me, and even then, unless I find someway to fly, I'm not sharing the same space with it (but at least I might be able to keep it from flying away)
I doubt my GM would go for allowing Stand Still with a weapon. I might try asking though.
Thanks for the advice on the dueling weapon! Haven't noticed that before. I was thinking of either getting that or something like Confounding.
| shaventalz |
Ya, CMD scales pretty darn high. Which is why I'm thinking of picking up improved trip just so I don't provoke and get a +2 (along with it keying off my weapon attack rather than my horribly low CMB)
It will still go off your CMB either way, just with Dex instead of Strength. Bonuses to weapon attacks apply to combat maneuvers using those weapons, but you WILL have size penalties rather than size bonuses.
That being said, when I'm tiny, my CMB keys off dex so stand still is actually quite viable. It also does stop many more things that are immune to trip. Though, tbh, if something can fly I can't really stop it anyhow unless it got RIGHT next to me, and even then, unless I find someway to fly, I'm not sharing the same space with it (but at least I might be able to keep it from flying away)
Handle Animal and a trained bird? At higher levels, of course, there are magic items you might look into.
Thanks for the advice on the dueling weapon! Haven't noticed that before. I was thinking of either getting that or something like Confounding.
It basically triples your weapon's magic bonus if you're not doing hit-for-damage. It's also the only way my PC has managed to trip some of the stuff he has.
Remember that a Confounding weapon takes an immediate action to use. I believe most swashbucklers tend to have other uses for their swift actions, but you know your PC better than I do.