Secret of Magical Discipline feat


Rules Questions


Chronicle of Legends introduced some feats that are aimed at specific prestige classes. The feat in question is for Loremaster.
"Once per day, you can cast any spell as if it were one of your prepared spells or spells known."
Is it really meant to be ANY spell from any list ever? This seems so good it is worth dipping a level with any wizard.
Does casting a spell of opposing school this way take up two slots?
Is the spell considered to be its original type (arcane, divine, psychic ) or the casters?


Relevant FAQ

FAQ wrote:

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

1) No.

2) Opposing spells still occupy 2 spell slots.

3) Type always depends on the caster not the list (unless an ability states otherwise).


1. Yes, though with the casting time limitation specified in the feat.
2. Unclear. The feat implies both yes and no--yes because you cast it "as if it were one of your prepared spells", no because it states that you expend one prepared spell. I'd err on the side of "yes".
3. The caster's. You cast it "as if it were one of your prepared spells", and (faith magic discovery aside) wizards prepare arcane spells.


The Secret of Magical Discipline feat does not add a spell so the FAQ above has no relevance. Rather it states you can cast a spell using an existing slot of the correct level. This lets you cast *any* spell, no matter whose list. If you don't have a sufficient slot, you cannot cast it. If you don't have the casting stat, you cannot cast it.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:

The Secret of Magical Discipline feat does not add a spell so the FAQ above has no relevance. Rather it states you can cast a spell using an existing slot of the correct level. This lets you cast *any* spell, no matter whose list. If you don't have a sufficient slot, you cannot cast it. If you don't have the casting stat, you cannot cast it.

/cevah

You missed this line.

Quote:
The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

As long as you don't use a class's spell slot to cast the spell I agree with you, otherwise it's gotta be on your class's spell list.


This is why I pointed out that it does *not* add it to your list.

The feat explicitly gives you the ability to cast a spell, and extracts a price to cast it of a slot. Note that it can expend a prepared spell of the same level. That prepared spell will be on your list, and is not the spell cast.

If you still insist this does not work, then use a Runestone of Power. [Must be a spontaneous caster.] This works by your requirement of not using your class's slot.

/cevah


The feat says you "expend" a spell slot, not that you use a spell slot to cast the spell. YOu don't use the actual class to cast the spell, you only use the feat (and then pay for it with soemthign from your class).

WagnerSika wrote:
Does casting a spell of opposing school this way take up two slots?

This is not a valid question. Casting a spell of an opposion school never takes up two spell slots, because as a prepared caster, a Wizard uses spell slots only during preparation time. "A wizard who prepares spells from his opposition schools must use two spell slots of that level to prepare the spell."

As you don't prepare the SoMD spell, opposition school(s) is no hinderance. You could actually loose a spell prepared in a specialty school slot to use SoMD to cast a spell of an opposition school.

WagnerSika wrote:
This seems so good it is worth dipping a level with any wizard.

Yes, although it costs a feat for Skill Focus, and you need to get the metamagic feats sooner than you might normally want them.


Actually reading the feat (I shouldn't have assumed it was the sinlge line quoted in the original message), I agree with Cevah and Derklord.

Once per day, you can cast any spell as if it were one of your prepared spells or spells known. This action expends either a spell slot or a prepared spell of the same spell level. Casting a spell this way always has a minimum casting time of 1 full round.

1) It does allow you to cast any spell.

2) It doesn't matter whether it's an opposition spell, it only has a cost of 1 slot.

3) It's the caster's casting type.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

One point I noticed after some further research: The feat's wording is very much like an improved version of the Skald's Spell Kenning class feature, so that could be an argument for the feat actually working in the most comprehensive possible way.


Pretty much. Takes the wind out of Pathfinder savant's esoteric magic a bit and rewards encyclopedic splat book knowledge, but the latter gets you more castings per day at least.

If one of my less experienced players took this feat, I'd probably instruct them that when in doubt, ask me when they want to do a thing with a spell and I'll see what I can find. Not everybody keeps the AoN spell database bookmarked on their phone. : /


It's awesome, and probably my favorite feat for quite some time (Magic Trick is a close second, though). It adds so much variety to the sorts of spells you have access to, allows you to craft all the scrolls you could want, and cuts down on the 'backpack of scrolls' imagery that doesn't always fit with the kind of caster you want to play. It's also extremely good for spontaneous casters, allowing you to play them without losing out as much on spell variety. Lastly, it makes a prestige class actually worth taking!

I'd even argue that it's not overpowered, as the feat taxes, while not totally out of line for what a full caster might reasonably get anyway, still do demand a decent amount of investment, for a prestige class that doesn't advance your class abilities, and even a 1-level dip cuts you off from the level 20 capstones introduced (if your game ever gets that high, anyway). Plus, it's 1/day/feat spent, which is enough to cover your bases, but not so much as to further enable Schrodinger's wizards.

Grand Lodge

So is the consensus that this feat can be used to create Spell Trigger items/completion items like scrolls and wands?

I know that the item creation rules state that the prepared slot is consumed when crafting a magic item (though not necessarily cast). I guess the question boils down to if the feat text of "you can cast any spell as if it were one of your prepared spells..." actually means that it's prepared, or simply that it can be cast. Can I split those actions: Prepare the spell, but not cast it?

If you could craft a scroll using this ability, would you also be able to use it to add a spell to your spellbook (provided it's on you class list)? You can write prepared spells to your spellbook by consuming the prepared slot.

If both those things are true, this feat offers even greater versatility, because you can use it to expand your spellbook without consuming scrolls or paying the fee to use another wizard's spellbook.


I'm not sure about putting it in your spellbook, since that explicitly requires you expending a prepared spell. However, you could scribe a scroll, as that only requires the spell to be cast (you could co-scribe a scroll with a cleric, for example) then copy the scroll into your spellbook. Basically, if before you could do something if someone else was casting the spell alongside you, you can do it.


I don't think it can be directly used to creat spell trigger or spell completion items. You never prepare the spell, so it cannot be taken from that slot. You don't know it either, so a spontaneous caster can't add it either. However, you *can* cast it, and cast it into a ring of spell storing. Once there, it can be used to craft the item.

The above is strict RAW, and I don't think anyone would have a problem with that reading for play. As a GM, I would allow direct use and not require the ring. If you did use it for crafting, it only provides the single spell, and the daily use is expended in the crafting.

For adding to your spellbook, I would say RAW, you cannot. You can cast it, but you don't know it. I would say you can use the crafting technique above to make a scroll, and from that, add it to your spellbook.

The price of buying a scroll is 25 gp per SL per CL plus components. Crafting is half that (12.5 gp*SL*CL) plus components and a source of the spell. Without this feat, that source must be purchased at 10 gp*SL*CL. So crafting a scroll of a spell you don't personally have is 22.5 gp per for a savings of 2.5 gp per, and time. Copying access costs 5 gp*SL*SL. Given all this, it is cheaper to copy from another spellbook when you can. However, you could make scrolls of spells you cannot find, or when there are no wizards around.

/cevah


I mean, the rules for creating magic items do say

Magic Item Creation wrote:
Most of the time, they [item prerequisites] take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

Basically, so long as you have access to the spell, be it because your cleric friend is casting it for you, or you have this feat, you can make the item no problem.

Grand Lodge

I agree that RAW you wouldn't be able to go directly from this feat to a scroll.
Either way the GM rules it, it's still an exceptionally useful feat, especially when I'm trying to build a wizard in a party without a divine caster...


Spellbooks would be right out, as even if a spell is prepared, you can only write a spell to your spellbook if it is a spell you know. (There is a distinction between spells in your spellbook and spells known even for wizards, though it usually only comes up if you're trying to use a borrowed spellbook.)

Edit: Scrolls might be fine. I don't see any requirement that you actually know the spell to scribe a scroll, only that you have it prepared (or know it, if you're a spontaneous caster) and that the spell requirement can't be bypassed. I probably wouldn't allow it, though, as it makes little in-game sense to me.


Spell kenning causes a similar issue. When I looked into whether you could write a scroll of a spell kenned spell the answers were split. I expect this would be the same.

Grand Lodge

The only reason I brought up spellbooks is from this line:

Replacing and Copying Spellbooks wrote:
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook.

Wizards don't have spells known. But if they somehow have a spell prepared that is on their Class Spell List, it can be added by consuming that prepared slot. That was the major motivation for determining if the spell gained from the feat is actually prepared or not. I Agree now that it is not actually prepared.


A wizard does have spells known, both through the free spells given at level up or through making the Spellcraft check (15 + spell level) to understand a spell from a scroll or other spellbook for the purposes of copying it into their own spellbook. It comes up if your original spellbook is lost or destroyed:

Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks wrote:
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured.

The earlier quote was for reconstructing a lost spellbook, presumably made up of spells the wizard knows. A wizard cannot write a spell into their spellbook unless they in fact know that spell.


Can we finally cast Genesis?


Sadly, genesis doesn't appear to be on any class's spell list. (Also, it isn't a Pathfinder RPG spell at all; it's from 3.5.)


Genesis is listed as a domain spell: Creation, 9th level.
Just need to find a way to get that domain.

/cevah

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
CRB wrote:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

The feat doesn't make it a spell know, so you can't create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items directly. The trick with spell storing will work, but the caster level will always the minimum for the spell and that will affect the CL of a scroll or potion.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
CRB wrote:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The feat doesn't make it a spell know, so you can't create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items directly. The trick with spell storing will work, but the caster level of the stored spell will always the minimum for the spell and that will affect the CL of a scroll or potion.


Diego Rossi wrote:
CRB wrote:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The feat doesn't make it a spell know, so you can't create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items directly. The trick with spell storing will work, but the caster level will always the minimum for the spell and that will affect the CL of a scroll or potion.

I fail to see where it needs to be a spell you know, given that Spell-like abilities work, and others can supply the spell.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
willuwontu wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
CRB wrote:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The feat doesn't make it a spell know, so you can't create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items directly. The trick with spell storing will work, but the caster level will always the minimum for the spell and that will affect the CL of a scroll or potion.
I fail to see where it needs to be a spell you know, given that Spell-like abilities work, and others can supply the spell.
FAQ wrote:

Brew Potion: Can a character with this feat create a potion of any spell he knows simply by adding +5 to the DC, even without preparing it?

No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC.

Update: Page 549, in the Magic Item Creation rules, in the second paragraph, change the last sentence to read as follows.

In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites.

The spell is prepared by someone or by a magic item?

No.

With this feat, the caster is capable to swap on the fly a spell, but crafting a potion, spell-trigger, or spell-completion item doesn't work that way. It explicitly requires to prepare and expend the spell. The feat covers the part "expend the spell", but not the part "prepare", while storing it in a spell storing ring covers both requirements.


Diego Rossi wrote:
CRB wrote:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The feat doesn't make it a spell know, so you can't create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items directly. The trick with spell storing will work, but the caster level will always the minimum for the spell and that will affect the CL of a scroll or potion.

The CL of the supplied spell has no relation to the CL of the scroll/potion/wand/staff.

/cevah


Diego Rossi wrote:
With this feat, the caster is capable to swap on the fly a spell, but crafting a potion, spell-trigger, or spell-completion item doesn't work that way. It explicitly requires to prepare and expend the spell.

If you take that sentence in the FAQ literally, no spontaneous caster could create such items, because they don't prepare anything.

I call bull s&%@ on that.

Seriously, that FAQ is about completely ignoring the spell requisite by adding +5 to the craft DC. The FAQ makes an explicit rule change, the last sentence. That sentence does not refer to preparing spells.

"In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites." That is the relevant part (the part that actually got put into the book). Nothing else is changes. All the methods to "meet the spell prerequisites" work, because that wasn't something the FAQ was about.


Diego Rossi wrote:
FAQ wrote:

Brew Potion: Can a character with this feat create a potion of any spell he knows simply by adding +5 to the DC, even without preparing it?

No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC.

Update: Page 549, in the Magic Item Creation rules, in the second paragraph, change the last sentence to read as follows.

In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites.

The spell is prepared by someone or by a magic item?

No.

With this feat, the caster is capable to swap on the fly a spell, but crafting a potion, spell-trigger, or spell-completion item doesn't work that way. It explicitly requires to prepare and expend the spell. The feat covers the part "expend the spell", but not the part "prepare", while storing it in a spell storing ring covers both requirements.

Incorrect, according to that FAQ only potions require you to prepare the spell. Scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item only require that you meet the prereqs of being able to cast that spell, which the feat covers.


willuwontu wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
FAQ wrote:

Brew Potion: Can a character with this feat create a potion of any spell he knows simply by adding +5 to the DC, even without preparing it?

No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC.

Update: Page 549, in the Magic Item Creation rules, in the second paragraph, change the last sentence to read as follows.

In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites.

The spell is prepared by someone or by a magic item?

No.

With this feat, the caster is capable to swap on the fly a spell, but crafting a potion, spell-trigger, or spell-completion item doesn't work that way. It explicitly requires to prepare and expend the spell. The feat covers the part "expend the spell", but not the part "prepare", while storing it in a spell storing ring covers both requirements.

Incorrect, according to that FAQ only potions require you to prepare the spell. Scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item only require that you meet the prereqs of being able to cast that spell, which the feat covers.

Well as a GM I'll be ignoring that if for no other reason that I think that a life oracle should be able to make cure potions for the group. I don't think it's intended that Spontaneous casters can't make potions at all by the rules.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Cevah wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
CRB wrote:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The feat doesn't make it a spell know, so you can't create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items directly. The trick with spell storing will work, but the caster level will always the minimum for the spell and that will affect the CL of a scroll or potion.

The CL of the supplied spell has no relation to the CL of the scroll/potion/wand/staff.

/cevah

CRB wrote:
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

The specific rule for potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items require the caster/supplemental caster/magic item to have the prepared/know spell. That prepared spell has a specific caster level. As the specific rule doesn't allow you to bypass the need for a spell increasing the DC, you are limited to the CL of the prepared spell.

As an example, if a level 10 wizard and a level 1 cleric work together to make a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, the prepared spell the cleric has is CLW, CL 1 and that is what you can put in the scroll. Not CLW level 10.
If, instead, they are making a new kind of prayer bead that cast CLW they can choose any CL between 1 and 10 (and the wizard can make it alone).


willuwontu wrote:
FAQ wrote:

Brew Potion: Can a character with this feat create a potion of any spell he knows simply by adding +5 to the DC, even without preparing it?

No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC.

Update: Page 549, in the Magic Item Creation rules, in the second paragraph, change the last sentence to read as follows.

In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites.

Incorrect, according to that FAQ only potions require you to prepare the spell. Scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item only require that you meet the prereqs of being able to cast that spell, which the feat covers.

that FAQ is specifically answering a question about a prepared caster crafting a potion, and that’s why the answer focuses on potions and preparing spells. At the bottom of the FAQ, they make it clear that the associated (errata’d) rules language applies to “potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other” such item.

Normally to expend the spell necessary for making a spell trigger or spell completion item, prepared casters have to prepare the spell. Spontaneous casters don’t. Per the other FAQ referenced in this thread, SLAs also meet the prereq for making trigger/completion items.

All this potion FAQ means is that prepared casters usually can’t expend spells without preparing them.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Cevah wrote:
The CL of the supplied spell has no relation to the CL of the scroll/potion/wand/staff.
CRB wrote:
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

The specific rule for potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items require the caster/supplemental caster/magic item to have the prepared/know spell. That prepared spell has a specific caster level. As the specific rule doesn't allow you to bypass the need for a spell increasing the DC, you are limited to the CL of the prepared spell.

As an example, if a level 10 wizard and a level 1 cleric work together to make a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, the prepared spell the cleric has is CLW, CL 1 and that is what you can put in the scroll. Not CLW level 10.
If, instead, they are making a new kind of prayer bead that cast CLW they can choose any CL between 1 and 10 (and the wizard can make it alone).

Sorry, the text you quote states otherwise.

The supplied CL is never mentioned.

If the wizard is required to prepare the spell himself, then he cannot make that potion of CLW since he cannot prepare CLW. Since the rule is that the spell can be supplied by another method, including a friendly cleric, and the magic item still depends on the wizard level, it is clear that the potion can be any level the wizard can make.

There is even a question if the creator can make it at a higher level for a greater DC. There is text that states the CL is something the creator can set, but no text that limits how high the level can be.

/cevah

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Cevah wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Cevah wrote:
The CL of the supplied spell has no relation to the CL of the scroll/potion/wand/staff.
CRB wrote:
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

The specific rule for potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items require the caster/supplemental caster/magic item to have the prepared/know spell. That prepared spell has a specific caster level. As the specific rule doesn't allow you to bypass the need for a spell increasing the DC, you are limited to the CL of the prepared spell.

As an example, if a level 10 wizard and a level 1 cleric work together to make a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, the prepared spell the cleric has is CLW, CL 1 and that is what you can put in the scroll. Not CLW level 10.
If, instead, they are making a new kind of prayer bead that cast CLW they can choose any CL between 1 and 10 (and the wizard can make it alone).

Sorry, the text you quote states otherwise.

The supplied CL is never mentioned.

If the wizard is required to prepare the spell himself, then he cannot make that potion of CLW since he cannot prepare CLW. Since the rule is that the spell can be supplied by another method, including a friendly cleric, and the magic item still depends on the wizard level, it is clear that the potion can be any level the wizard can make.

There is even a question if the creator can make it at a higher level for a greater DC. There is text that states the CL is something the creator can set, but no text that limits how high the level can be.

/cevah

Cevah if you are forced to have a prerequisite, you are limited to the prerequisite.

Both casters are creators for the item, and you are limited to the level of the caster with the prerequisite if that prerequisite is indispensable unless some rule text says the opposite.
When making an item in collaboration only 1 caster needs to have the crafting feat as that is said explicitly in the rules, but you are still limited by the CL of whoever/whatever give you the spell if that is an unavoidable prerequisite.
Even if you are a 15th level wizard with goodly level UMD, you can't craft a scroll of Barkskin lvl 3 into a scroll of Barkkin lvl 15.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Both casters are creators for the item, and you are limited to the level of the caster with the prerequisite if that prerequisite is indispensable unless some rule text says the opposite.

Cite the rule that states this please.

Diego Rossi wrote:
When making an item in collaboration only 1 caster needs to have the crafting feat as that is said explicitly in the rules, but you are still limited by the CL of whoever/whatever give you the spell if that is an unavoidable prerequisite.

Cite please.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Even if you are a 15th level wizard with goodly level UMD, you can't craft a scroll of Barkskin lvl 3 into a scroll of Barkkin lvl 15.

Why not?

CRB wrote:
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

This gives no requirement for CL.

Also, you don't need UMD. Crafting does not require casting of the spell, only consuming it.

/cevah


I have no dog in this fight, I am just providing some references I was able to find:

cooperative casting wrote:
If the second character is providing a spell effect, that character’s spell is expended for the day, just as if you were using one of your own spells for a requirement. If the second character is a hired NPC, you must pay for the NPC’s spellcasting service for each day of the item creation.
more cooperative casting wrote:

Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

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