Can you use the Flash Attack & Lighten Weapon feat with Hand Crossbows or one handed fire arms (Pistols) to pull off two shot in a standard action?


Advice and Rules Questions


Can you use the Flash Attack & Lighten Weapon feat with Hand Crossbows or one handed fire arms (Pistols) to pull off two shot in a standard action?

Flash Attack (Combat)
You use the small size and weight of two light weapons to attack with unmatched speed.
Prerequisite: Double Slice, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (any light weapon).
Benefit: When wielding two light weapons, you may attack once with each as a standard action, an attack of opportunity, as part of a charge, or as part of a Spring Attack. An unarmed strike counts as a light weapon.
Normal: You may only make a single attack of any type as a standard action

Lighten Weapon (Combat)
You can balance heavy weapons, making them easier to wield.
Prerequisite: Str 13, BAB +3.
Benefit: Choose one type of weapon. When using a weapon of that type you may reduce the effort required to wield it by one step but suffer a −2 penalty to hit with that weapon. This allows you to wield a weapon 1 size category larger as if it were your own size, use a two-handed weapon in one hand, or a one-handed as a light weapons.
Normal: Weapons 1 size category larger increase the effort required to wield them by one step: light becoming one-handed, one-handed becoming two-handed, and two-handed becoming un-wieldable. Two-handed weapons may not be used one-handed. Using a one-handed weapon in your off hand results in a −2 penalty to all of your attacks (in addition to other off-hand penalties that may apply).
Special: The effect of this feat does not stack with other feats that alter wielding effort or weapon size. You may take this feat multiple times, each time choosing a different type of weapon.

I made Gunslinger and I was wondering, I can pull two pistol shots with this feat.


(What product is this from?)


Flash Attack feat is form Strategists and Tacticians. Copyright 2010, 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming; Author Ryan Costello, Jr.

Lighten Weapon feat is form Advanced Feats: Secrets of the Alchemist. Copyright 2010, Open Design LLC, www.koboldquarterly.com.

Hope that helps securing an answer.

Paizo Employee

You can't make ranged weapons light because the light designation only applies to melee weapons.

"Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons
This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon."

There's no such thing as a light ranged weapon by default.


But isn't the hand crossbow the exception to the rule?

Quote:
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.

If at all by weight a pistol is only 1 lb heavier than a hand-crossbow and thus really should have the same exemption.

Sorry for the side track. The main query is, is it possible to use dual pistols as standard action?

Paizo Employee

Jhyarelle wrote:
But isn't the hand crossbow the exception to the rule?

It is not. A hand crossbow is a ranged weapon you can wield in one hand while taking two-weapon fighting penalties as if attacking with two light weapons, which is not the same as it being a One-Handed or Light Weapon. Pathfinder can get a little weird that way.

Quote:


If at all by weight a pistol is only 1 lb heavier than a hand-crossbow and thus really should have the same exemption.

From a game perspective: Things only do what they say they do. Just because a kind-of-similar thing acts one way doesn't mean a different thing does as well. Game balance is pretty complex.

From a "but in the real world" perspective: The last thing in the world you generally want to do if you're hoping for accuracy is lighten a gun. A gun's weight is part of what helps balance recoil and lightening it would actually make it harder to aim, not easier. A black-powder pistol actually has significantly more recoil than a hand crossbow (which granted is more of a fantasy weapon than a practical-use thing that saw much real-world application) would have.

Quote:


Sorry for the side track. The main query is, is it possible to use dual pistols as standard action?

Not with Flash Attack. Because Flash Attack references "two light weapons" it is melee exclusive. You could use a double-barreled pistol, which allows you to fire both barrels as a standard action, you could use the Leaping Shot deed which allows you to move and fire each firearm you are wielding as a full-round action, the Black Powder Vaulter archetype allows you to attack twice with firearms while using the Shot On The Run deed, and there's probably a couple other ways to get in that ballpark. Just not those particular feats from your original post.


If you use Path of War and have access to Thrashing Dragon, you can use: Thrashing Dragon Style. It isnt quite the same as attacking two pistols/crossbows in one standard action, although it can work that way.

However, Thrashing Dragon is largely a melee/thrown weapon fighting style, and, for normal classes, takes 2 feats and a BAB of +5 or higher to get a stance for the prereq, so a good bit of "wasted" feats.

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