a few rule questions, using Core Set rule


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


1.
Longspear has 'you may additional discard to reroll'. When can this power be used? Similar cards such as Battleaxe has 'If proficient, you may additionally discard to add another 1d8'. In Battleaxe's case, 'discard when reveal' makes sense. However 'discard when reveal' does not make sense for Longspear, since I probably don't want to 'discard to reroll' unless the first roll has failed the check. However, if I wait until the first roll is known, then 'discard to reoll', it looks like I play the same card twice in the same check, which is not allowed.

2.
Gem of Mental Acuity has 'On your non-combat check, recharge to roll your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma die instead of the normal die.' When this power is used, is the check a 'Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma' check? Page 11 says 'Other powers allow you to use on skill instead of another'. But I don't think it is the case here since the gem's power is to repalce a die rather than replace a skill.

3.
Wand of Flame has 'For your combat check, bury or banish to roll ...'. When this power is used, are card traits, 'Wand, Magic etc', added to the check? The closest rule I find is on Page 11 says 'If you play a card to determine the skill you're using, that card's traits are also added to the check.' However, Wand of Flame does not determine the skill like other spells such as Acid Arrow.

4.
How long a character's power that says 'Gain the skill ...' last? For the check, the encounter, the turn or the game?

5.
Phantasmal Minion has 'Banish to give a card to another character and/or let any number of local characters give a card to another character'. If the and case is choosen, can the character who played the card do 'give a card' twice?

6.
Can Good Omen be played on a to close or to guard check that requires a combat check against a monstor that is immune to Mental trait?

7.
Life Drain, does 'then heal a card' occur at the time of revealing?

8.
Locate Object, if no boon is found, no encount can occur, however does the shuffle still occur?

9.
Elixir of Energy Resistance, does this card follow the character moving to other locations, until end of the scenario or banished for the 2nd power?

10.
Troubadour has 'On a local Charisma or Diplomacy non-combat check...' Can the power be used for a Charisma combat check?

11.
The Worldbreaker has '... then banish the top blessing of the hourglass'. It seems that the top card of the hourglass needs to be revealed first. If it is a blessing, the card is banished. But what to do if the card is not a blessing?

12.
Symbol of Insanity. If a character is choose more than once, does 'the party may play no more than one boon of each type to affect damage to the same character from the same source' applied to each time the character is choosen, or all intances?

13.
Suffer Damage seems to have incompatible rules. Page 12 says '(Remember that collectively, the party may play no more than one of each type of boon during a check, so if someone already played a spell on the check, a spell can't be played to reduce damage.) Page 13 says 'Collectively, the party may play no more than one boon of each type to affect damage to the same character from the same source,...' Or maybe the two rules are for two situations. Take Manticore, the first rule is for the combat check against Manticore. The second rule is for 'If undefeated, each local character suffers 1 Ranged Combat damage'?

14.
Last, need help to understand the Dagger example in 'Cards Don't Have Memories' section. It says 'If you play a Dagger by freely shuffling it into your deck then draw one of two Daggers that are in your deck, you can't rule out that it's the same Dagger, so you can't play it again on that check." First neither of the Dagger's two powers has 'shuffle it into my deck'. Second, which rule causes 'so you can't play it again on that check'


Before I go through this entire list, I ask you to consider the overarching rules stated in the rulebook in the "Golden Rules" section:

Core Set rulebook p.3 wrote:
If the storybook, cards, or rules are ever in conflict, the storybook overrides the cards, and the cards override the rules. There is one exception to this: When the rulebook uses the word “never” or “always,” nothing can override it.

Looking at your question #1, regarding the Longspear, the relevant rulebook passage is:

Core Set rulebook p.8 wrote:
Each character may play any number of cards, but collectively, the party may play no more than one of each type of boon; powers that can be played freely do not count toward this limit.

That passage says neither "never" nor "always". So: if the Longspear contradicts this rule, you obey the Longspear. (As I recall there is also a rule about playing two powers on the same card, which I cannot find ATM; but I believe that rule does not say "never" or "always", either.)

Can you go back over your list and see if applying this rule doesn't remove some of your difficulties?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thank you in advance for numbering your questions. :)

  • 1. Excellent question! There's been a bit of discussion for this, but there's been no official FAQ or rulebook clarification here. Even so, the intent is clear, and it's been confirmed by the highest PACG authority in this post that "additionally" effects means it still counts as only being played once.

    Strictly speaking, there wouldn't be an issue even if it was counted as playing the Longspear twice, because "Roll the Dice" (the step in which you'd want a reroll) is a different step to "Determine which skill you're using" (the step in which you'd reveal the weapon). You're allowed to play the same card (or card type) once during each in step of an encounter, if it remains relevant. (See Pages 11 and 12 of the Core Rulebook.)

  • 2. Correct, this is replacing your die with another die, replacing the skill you use with another skill. It's a common misconception, though.

    Any and all modifiers with your original skill remain - this card just lets you switch the physical die you roll.

  • 3. Another excellent question, but you just overlooked one paragraph in the very rules you referenced. Under "Determine Which Skill You're Using", the following clarification is printed:

    Core Rulebook, Page 11 wrote:
    A few cards that can be used on checks don’t use any of your skills; they instead specify the exact dice to roll, or the result of your roll.

    In other words, it does count as determining your skill for the purposes of all rules (including what Traits are added to the check), even though you're not actually choosing a skill.

  • 4. If you're referring to feats, such as Core Kyra gaining the Constitution and Perception skills, then that's a permanent addition to her character, and lasts for the entire game, since they don't specify any other condition or limitation.

    If you're gaining a skill in some other way, it would depend upon what is giving you that skill. "For your check against a Healing card, gain the Divine skill equal to your Intelligence" would only give you the Divine skill whilst you're making a check against a Healing card, for example.

  • 5. Yep, you can hand 2 cards off thanks to the "And/Or", and you yourself are certainly a local character.

  • 6. No, but not because of the Mental trait, but because a check against a monster is not a check to guard/close. A "check to close/guard" only refers to checks written on a location that have the direct result of closing them. If you summon a danger or a monster, with the requirement to defeat it to close your location, your checks against them are not actually checks to close.

    Though, I admit; I'm not sure where in the rulebook this is made clear, I just remember this being ruled on before and enforced at various times. Anyone else have any input?

  • 7. Yes, the heal should occur before you play other cards or roll for combat. Complete the entire paragraph of an effect, when possible - the dice are assembled and rolled at a later step.

  • 8. Ugh. I'm reluctant to touch this one, because what is and isn't considered a negated effect confuses me. I'm certain the intent is that you do still shuffle the location, though.

  • 9. Yep; if it's displayed next to a character then it remains displayed by them no matter where they are or where they move to.

  • 10. No, otherwise it would say "On a local Charisma check or a local Diplomacy non-combat check...".

  • 11. Good question; I'd play it like for villain escapes. Flip cards until you flip a blessing, then banish it - shuffle the other cards you saw back in.

  • 12. Currently under debate. It would all be occurring during the same step, for certain, but it would be different instances of damage, and the rules, as-written, seem to be slightly contradictory on that.

  • 13. Well you've hit the nail on the head. See my previous answer.

  • 14. It's a writeup based on specific corner-case rules that have come up based on daggers in the past. But the rule in question that would be running afoul of is that you can't play the same card twice on the same check.


  • Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

    Based on the above questions, I would argue 3 FAQ entries are probably warranted, for functional rules errata/clarifications which are not sufficiently covered in the Core Rulebook.

  • "Additionally" effects and whether they count as playing a card again is a question that has been answered conclusively in the forums, but has no official FAQ or rulebook statement covering the resolution.

  • Questions about multiple damage instances in a single step, potentially to the same or different players, is unclear. This has a dedicated thread too, and is awaiting formal ruling.

  • I personally think it's not clear whether "...then Y" effects only occur if the previous condition occurred or not. I think it might be different whether it's templated as "X. Then, do Y" vs "X, then Y" vs "X then Y", but I find it hard to parse any of them by default, and I'd love a FAQ.

    A few more thoughts and historical references for that last question:
    I know some of those have been ruled to be conditional (such as CD Imrijka only getting to draw a card if she recharges a card), and some of those have been ruled to be non-conditional (like MM Ezren exploring even if he doesn't move when discarding a spell for his power). For a specific example, when discussing CD Imrijka, Vic says here that the full stop before "Then" is rules-significant, but makes no mention of a comma.

    I would argue that "X, then Y" is much closer to "X then Y" as it is to "X. Then, do Y". If so, if you could not encounter a boon, then I think RAW you shouldn't shuffle the location deck, though I'm certain that's not the intent.


  • Thanks to the indefatigable Yewstance for assailing the entire OP.
    I'm actually too lazy ATM to parse *either* post in entirety, but not too slothlike to quibble about this:

    Yewstance wrote:

    1....this post [states] that "additionally" effects means it still counts as only being played once.

    Strictly speaking, there wouldn't be an issue even if it was counted as playing the Longspear twice, because "Roll the Dice" (the step in which you'd want a reroll) is a different step to "Determine which skill you're using" (the step in which you'd reveal the weapon). You're allowed to play the same card (or card type) once during each in step of an encounter, if it remains relevant.

    To be clear: Vic clarified the "played once vs played twice" question because other posters in that thread asked about other cards which care about the number of instance of playing something - not because a card can't grant the power to play itself twice.

    Also: there is a "step" confusion in Yewstance's explanation about "Roll the Dice" and "Determine which skill you're using" being different steps. That's true, but they are different steps* of the "Attempt the Check" step of the encounter. The rule I cite above about one boon per step** applies to the steps of the encounter, not the steps of the check, so the party can only play 1 card of each boon type in the entire "Attempt the Check" step.

    *really substeps, if you ask me.
    **my bad for not making the "step of the encounter" part clearer above


    1, 4, 5, 7, 9 & 10. See elcoderdude and Yewstance’s (two real veteran references now ) really good answers above.

    2. To clarify Yewstance’s answer: replacing a die with another die doesn’t add any trait to a check (like Mike would say: “cards/powers only do what they say they do”).

    3. This one is tricky and I do not follow Yewstance on this one. Indeed Wand of Flame does not determine the skill you are using (it’s just a combat check) and therefore the “If you play a card to determine the skill you’re using, that card’s traits are also added to the check” doesn’t apply. So for me you do not add any trait to the skill when using the wand (it isn’t a magic check!). Seems odd but RAW it is my interpretation.

    6. To clarify Yewstance’s answer: a check “to close” is written on the “to close” part of a location (like “succeed at a Range 6 check”). If closing requires you to do something else (like “summon and defeat a monster”), any check that will be involved by that procedure are not checks “to close”. Same for “guarding”.

    8. If I remember well (don’t have the card here, you may want to quote the exact text when asking a question), there is a “then” involved after a comma, meaning that whether or not you managed to process the first part of locate object’s powers, you will shuffle at the end.

    11. This one is tricky and I do not follow Yewstance on this one. Since it doesn’t say “examine” or “search”, RAW it seems (always the “don’t do what the powers/cards don’t ask you to do”) you in fact “look” (but not “examine”, so no trigger) at the top cards one by one, replacing them in order face down, until you find a blessing, banish that blessing, and do not change the rest of the hourglass.

    12 & 13. Indeed this one is under review, because RAW the rules themselves are ambiguous. We all expect a FAQ.

    14. I don’t have the card so I cannot discuss the exact Dagger powers (maybe indeed they had in mind an old wording of the Dagger’s powers that my not make sense anymore in the example). This said the general ruling is that if something “may” break the rules or “may” end up in an illegal situation (depending typically on a die roll or an unknown card to be revealed, or the potential presence of a card in a deck if there MUST be one for the power to be legal (*)), you cannot attempt it.
    (*) not the same as Locate Object that just can fail. It forbids things like playing a card against an immunity because some other action after may dispel that immunity.


    Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

    Excellent posts by elcoderdude and Frencois.

    Some clarifications/responses.

    elcoderdude wrote:
    Also: there is a "step" confusion in Yewstance's explanation about "Roll the Dice" and "Determine which skill you're using" being different steps. That's true, but they are different steps* of the "Attempt the Check" step of the encounter. The rule I cite above about one boon per step** applies to the steps of the encounter, not the steps of the check, so the party can only play 1 card of each boon type in the entire "Attempt the Check" step.

    Yes, I was entirely wrong about this. Honestly I just had a mental misstep and confused the two. As a result, my reasoning to question 1 is wrong, but the solution is still correct; you can certainly choose whether to use the 'additionally' effect after rolling the dice.

    Frencois wrote:
    3. This one is tricky and I do not follow Yewstance on this one. Indeed Wand of Flame does not determine the skill you are using (it’s just a combat check) and therefore the “If you play a card to determine the skill you’re using, that card’s traits are also added to the check” doesn’t apply. So for me you do not add any trait to the skill when using the wand (it isn’t a magic check!). Seems odd but RAW it is my interpretation.

    Given that the statement that "some cards just tell you what to roll" is a paragraph in the rulebook under Determine Which Skill You're Using, it follows to me that such a rule is placed in that section for a reason. That is, that it implies that types of cards count and add their traits.

    More importantly, the INTENT seems crystal-clear here. If you use a Wand of Flame in combat, I'm certain that your check should have the Fire trait - you should be able to take advantage of a Troll's vulnerability to fire, for example.

    Frencois wrote:
    8. If I remember well (don’t have the card here, you may want to quote the exact text when asking a question), there is a “then” involved after a comma, meaning that whether or not you managed to process the first part of locate object’s powers, you will shuffle at the end.

    I don't disagree, but I'd really like a source on stating that the comma means that the second half of the power is not conditional on the first part. In my answer I linked a ruling stating that for periods/full stops, but not commas.

    Frencois wrote:
    11. This one is tricky and I do not follow Yewstance on this one. Since it doesn’t say “examine” or “search”, RAW it seems (always the “don’t do what the powers/cards don’t ask you to do”) you in fact “look” (but not “examine”, so no trigger) at the top cards one by one, replacing them in order face down, until you find a blessing, banish that blessing, and do not change the rest of the hourglass.

    Fair call, but I don't like giving the table unnecessary information. But yes, it's not fully defined how to handle these effects in all cases when there's nonblessings in the hourglass, but the vast majority of effects that do consider this (see Blessing of Rovagug) use the phrase "Search for X blessings" (and "Search" is defined in the rules as "being followed by a shuffle"), so I think a shuffle could be argued as rules intent.


    Thank you for all your replies, now I know on how to play and the reasoning for 1, 2, 4 - 9. For the remainings, I have these thoughts,

    3. I agree with the way Frencois reasons. But I also agree with what Yewstance says the intent of the card. So I will play the card with adding all traits although the rule book does not explictly says so.

    10. Comparing to Sage's power 'On a local Arcane non-combat or Knowledge non-combat check,...',
    Troubadour's power 'On a local Charisma or Diplomacy non-combat check...', seems can be used for a Charisma combat check. Can anyone take another look at this?

    11. I will play the in the way in Yewstance's clarification with shuffling for now.

    14. I don't think "you can't play the same card twice on the same check" because I can't find the rule in Core Set. In addition, Dagger's second power is 'On a local combat check, freely recharge...' That seems the power can be used as many time as possible. I am trying to grasp what Frencois says.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    3. If the power starts with the words “For your X check, ...” then playing i it adds all the traits to your check and you can play at most 1 such card per check. I can’t think of a single counterexample to this, as that’s a fairly universal template for “Determine Which Skill You’re Using” powers. Conversely, if the power doesn’t start with that, then playing it doesn’t determine which skill you’re using and therefore won’t add traits (again, I can’t think of a single counterexample here).

    10. It’s non-combat only regardless of check type; don’t try to over-parse things. There’s multiple ways to write the same thing in English, and PACG isn’t always internally consistent in using the exact same ways across every card.

    14. See the “Example: Multiple Powers and Playing Freely” sidebar on page 8 for the rule you’re missing.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    3. (because I can't help myself...) Just in case there are exceptions to the "For your X check" templating, here's the keywords in the power that actually matter for whether or not a power counts as a Determine Which Skill You're Using power (and therefore whether or not playing that power adds all of the card's traits to the check):

    If the power says:
    - You use a particular skill. For example, "For your combat check, reveal to use your Strength or Melee skill + 1d8."
    - You roll a set number of dice. For example, "For your combat check, banish or bury to roll 4d6."
    - You use some number as the result of your roll. For example, when using the While Displayed portion of "For your combat check, display this card next to your deck to use your Arcane skill + 3d6. While displayed, you may use the result of this check for any combat check you attempt at this location."
    Then that power is played during Determine Which Skill You're Using. This means you may play only 1 such power per check, and all of that card's traits are added to the check.

    If the power says:
    - You use one skill instead of another skill
    Then that power is also played during Determine Which Skill You're Using. It is not limited to 1 per check, and does not add any of the card's traits to the check. The global "no more than 1 card of each type per check unless they can be played freely" rule still applies for these powers of course.

    If the power says anything else like:
    - You roll a particular die type instead of another one (like the aforementioned Gem of Mental Acuity)
    - You add a skill or die to a check
    - Anything else not listed above
    Then that power is played during Play Cards And Use Powers That Affect Your Check. Using these powers don't add any traits to the check unless the power explicitly says that it adds traits. You're still limited to the global "no more than 1 card of each type per check unless they can be played freely" rule for these cards, but there's otherwise no other limitations on playing such powers provided they're relevant to the situation at hand.


    Thank you for showing me how to understand the correct play and rule for 3, 10 and 14.

    While reading the detail for 3, I have a new question.
    For a power says 'You use X skill instead of Y skill' in a check that requires Y skill, are all these traits added to the check?
    Y
    any skills referenced by Y
    X
    any skills referenced by X


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    No. If you use one skill instead of another skill, the first skill is never used and its traits are not added. The traits added to the check come from the following:

    1. The type of check you are making (the thing listed on the card itself that you are making the check against)
    2. The skill you ultimately end up using for that check, after all skill replacement powers have taken effect
    3. All skills referenced by the skill in point 2
    4. All traits on the card you played to determine which skill you're using (if any) -- this would be the first 3 things I listed in my above post (use a skill, roll a number of dice, use a particular result)
    5. All traits on your character card
    6. Any traits that powers explicitly told you to add to the check

    So, let's consider the following hypothetical scenario. The card is asking for a "Wisdom or Divine 6" check. We choose Divine from that list and our character has the skills Divine: Wisdom +1 and Knowledge: Intelligence +3. We use a hypothetical power "You may use your Knowledge skill instead of your Divine skill." Let's look at my list above.

    1. We picked Divine on the card, so this is Divine.
    2. We are ultimately using our Knowledge skill, so this is Knowledge.
    3. Our Knowledge skill references Intelligence, so this is Intelligence.
    4. We didn't play any such card in this example, so no traits are added here.
    5. We add all the traits on our character card (like Human and Paladin)
    6. No powers in our example told us to add traits to the check, so no traits are added here.

    In summary, our check has the Divine, Knowledge, and Intelligence traits, along with all the traits on our character card. It does not have the Wisdom trait.


    I am getting more knowledge on this game. Thank you for detail explanation.


    Just to be clear, I fully agree that:
    3. Using a wand SHOULD add its trait (Magic...)
    8. You SHOULD always shuffle after locate object
    11. You SHOULD always shuffle after looking for a card in the hourglass (EXCEPT maybe when the hourglass as a specific non random build)
    I was merely stating that RAW it is unclear whether/not that's what it's written IMHO.

    Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    I think you've largely come to the correct answers, apart from the things that still need final rulings, except for 11:

    Hang Zhu wrote:


    The Worldbreaker has '... then banish the top blessing of the hourglass'.

    Just do exactly what it says—find the top blessing of the hourglass and banish it. We didn't say to examine them (so triggers don't go off) and we didn't say to search for it (so you don't look at every card in the hourglass, and you don't shuffle afterwards).


    So, if the top of the hourglass is not a blessing, put the card back and that is all?


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    If it’s not a blessing, you keep looking through until you find a blessing and do whatever you need to do with it. Then put all the non-blessings back on top in the same order.

    Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Card Game / Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion / a few rule questions, using Core Set rule All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.
    Recent threads in Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion