Raxmei |
I got a bit of sticker shock from how much grenades cost and I've seen someone else mention it too. Prices tend to line up so that the cost of a handful of grenades will buy a weapon of the same tier, and that would tend to discourage people from buying them. Is that an actual problem, and if so what cost would make people use them more?
Nerdy Canuck |
Grenades are pretty powerful, and really easy to use, so...
Compare to a Spell Gem of a similar level, really. Grenades are much cheaper and easier to use than spell gems, but not as high damage as you can get out of a spell gem. I'd say they're at about the right point.
It is important for the DM to replace the lost wealth from grenades detonating (same as other consumables, like healing serums), though, to prevent falling behind the WBL curve.
Nerdy Canuck |
Odd I had heard that spell gems were cheaper.
In any case, I think all things should remain the same, but the listed cost should net you a set of no less than 4 grenades, and possibly as high as 16.
The effective comparison I'm actually trying to make there is between grenades available at a certain level versus spells available at that level. Spell gems are just sort of a connector there so that I can actually compare a Level 1 spell slot to a Level 1 grenade (the spell gem for that would be level 2, but the spell itself is easily available to a first level party).
Ascalaphus |
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Grenades are pretty powerful, and really easy to use, so...
Are they actually powerful? Unless you're using on-level grenades with no bad circumstances, the save DC to halve damage and avoid rider effects isn't all that high. They don't do more damage than same-level weapons, and you don't add weapon specialization.
In my experience, most grenades are only good for "we think there's a monster hiding here, let's piss it off so it comes out".
It is important for the DM to replace the lost wealth from grenades detonating (same as other consumables, like healing serums), though, to prevent falling behind the WBL curve.
If you use the guidelines in the core book for treasure, you're giving out about 50% more than people would need to keep up with WBL. Some of that goes into healing serums, some into the inefficiency of selling your lower-level gear at 10%, but some of it is also intended for grenades.
BigNorseWolf |
It is important for the DM to replace the lost wealth from grenades detonating (same as other consumables, like healing serums), though, to prevent falling behind the WBL curve.
The amount you should be spending on consumables like grenades is already built into the WBL and income per encounter system (mind you, that gives you a result of never throw a grenade you didn't pick up off of someone though...)
Also that APs seem to put characters horribly behind WBL curves.
Nerdy Canuck |
Nerdy Canuck wrote:The amount you should be spending on consumables like grenades is already built into the WBL and income per encounter system (mind you, that gives you a result of never throw a grenade you didn't pick up off of someone though...)It is important for the DM to replace the lost wealth from grenades detonating (same as other consumables, like healing serums), though, to prevent falling behind the WBL curve.
"Should" is really doing a lot of work in that sentence.
BigNorseWolf |
BigNorseWolf wrote:At which point the CR system is going to start drifting.No more than "it's important for the DM to..."
Not every groups loot scheme is going to be that reactive.
It's also going to start drifting if you can use more consumables than the WBL budgets you using. If you can throw unlimited money at the problem because the DM backfills what you've spent then you have a considerable advantage the games assumptions don't make.
Nerdy Canuck |
Nerdy Canuck wrote:BigNorseWolf wrote:At which point the CR system is going to start drifting.No more than "it's important for the DM to..."
Not every groups loot scheme is going to be that reactive.
It's also going to start drifting if you can use more consumables than the WBL budgets you using. If you can throw unlimited money at the problem because the DM backfills what you've spent then you have a considerable advantage the games assumptions don't make.
Which becomes a matter of when corrections happen rather than if corrections happen. If wealth valleys are left long enough to sting, players will think twice about these things.
BigNorseWolf |
Which becomes a matter of when corrections happen rather than if corrections happen. If wealth valleys are left long enough to sting, players will think twice about these things.
Active corrections don't need to happen at all, especially if someone keeps up the high spending behavior.
racs333 |
If grenades are really your thing, take a couple levels of bombard Soldier, at level 4,it will more then pay for the grenades you would ordinarily buy. Take a technomancer Supercharge weapon, and that makes it as powerful as any weapon in the game. creative uses of grenades rather then lobbing them unlimited make then more useful. people are looking them as a unlimited resource rather then as a AoE deterrant for example.
SuperBidi |
In my opinion, the biggest issue with grenades is the save DC based on your Dexterity. Most Dexterity-based classes are the ones not needing grenades as they already have good enough weaponry. I would just make fixed DCs for grenades (14 + half their level + 1 every five levels for example). Even a little bit higher if you want grenades to be more reliable.
Reducing their cost won't change the fact that they are not good enough compared to weapons. As a player and a DM, I like the concept of grenades being used rarely, but having a good impact on the combat.
The Ragi |
I got a bit of sticker shock from how much grenades cost and I've seen someone else mention it too. Prices tend to line up so that the cost of a handful of grenades will buy a weapon of the same tier, and that would tend to discourage people from buying them. Is that an actual problem, and if so what cost would make people use them more?
If you buy or find an expensive grenade you should stick it on a weapon with this fusion: http://aonsrd.com/WeaponFusions.aspx?ItemName=Bombarding
Nerdy Canuck |
Nerdy Canuck wrote:Active corrections don't need to happen at all, especially if someone keeps up the high spending behavior.
Which becomes a matter of when corrections happen rather than if corrections happen. If wealth valleys are left long enough to sting, players will think twice about these things.
Except that they do, because that person will be unable to afford to keep up on equipment - leading very easily to a serious spiral effect that wrecks the game for them.
Nerdy Canuck |
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Nerdy Canuck wrote:OR they could stop wasting their money.
Except that they do, because that person will be unable to afford to keep up on equipment - leading very easily to a serious spiral effect that wrecks the game for them.
That is one of two possibilities; the other is that they will continue to lean on the only strategy that's really left to them (and perhaps even lean into it harder). When you have two possibilities, one of those two possibilities is catastrophic to player experience, and which possibility happens is driven solely by player behaviour, there is a very serious problem that needs to be dealt with somehow.
Ravingdork |
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That player needs to understand that your not supposed to have the highest grade equipment each and every level. Quite the opposite in fact, most of the time, much of your gear is going to be be 2-5 levels behind. Having one or two pieces at the appropriate level, or higher, is generally going to be the exception.
Nerdy Canuck |
That player needs to understand that your not supposed to have the highest grade equipment each and every level. Quite the opposite in fact, most of the time, much of your gear is going to be be 2-5 levels behind. Having one or two pieces at the appropriate level, or higher, is generally going to be the exception.
Yes, but if someone is spending on the best consumables they can get all the time, they're going to struggle to manage even that.
But also: The book doesn't tell you that; don't expect players to know things that have been worked out on these boards, seeing as most players don't dive anywhere near that deep.
Ravingdork |
The book doesn't tell you that; don't expect players to know things that have been worked out on these boards, seeing as most players don't dive anywhere near that deep.
That's a fair point I suppose.
Still, this is the age of the internet, I can't help but think that most people who are really interested in this game eventually make their way to the web site.
Those who aren't that interested in the game likely never even think about what we're discussing, so the point becomes moot.
Nerdy Canuck |
Still, this is the age of the internet, I can't help but think that most people who are really interested in this game eventually make their way to the web site.
That's... Not remotely the case. The readership of a site like this represents a tiny, tiny fraction of the overall playerbase of any given game. Always.
Vexies |
In our home games I have both buffed the damage allowed full weapon specialization to damage and taken a 10's digit off the price. Even with these extreme measures, given the particularly easy to make save DC's for half damage grenades are still just OK but at least they are useful enough that they still see use from my group.
At the moment, as written in the rules, they are ridiculously priced and pretty pointless damage wise at most item lvls
BigNorseWolf |
That is one of two possibilities; the other is that they will continue to lean on the only strategy that's really left to them (and perhaps even lean into it harder).
Because your wealth/income increase very quickly as you level mistakes (or savings) with your finances in your early levels matter less and less as you level up.
Or in other words it's never too late to start saving.
SuperBidi |
That is one of two possibilities; the other is that they will continue to lean on the only strategy that's really left to them (and perhaps even lean into it harder). When you have two possibilities, one of those two possibilities is catastrophic to player experience, and which possibility happens is driven solely by player behaviour, there is a very serious problem that needs to be dealt with somehow.
Most people will hardly get over 20% wealth on consumables. So a standard player will never stick to this strategy. Experienced players can, but they know what they're doing.
Even here, most people think casters need a backup weapon, for example.Ravingdork |
Ravingdork wrote:Yeah, regular readership is a far cry from someone who visited once. I was referring to anyone who has come here, whereas you're obviously thinking of those that stick around.Same thing holds true for even showing up just the once. It's not remotely common.
Got any evidence to back up that claim? I've not met a person who doesn't use internet in a long, long time, particularly among the younger roleplaying crowds. Nearly everyone has a smart phone or tablet, and they're always using them during games. I'd be hard pressed to believe that most of them have never once checked out the Paizo website.
I could maybe believe a 50/50 rough split.
Nerdy Canuck |
Nerdy Canuck wrote:Ravingdork wrote:Yeah, regular readership is a far cry from someone who visited once. I was referring to anyone who has come here, whereas you're obviously thinking of those that stick around.Same thing holds true for even showing up just the once. It's not remotely common.Got any evidence to back up that claim? I've not met a person who doesn't use internet in a long, long time, particularly among the younger roleplaying crowds. Nearly everyone has a smart phone or tablet, and they're always using them during games. I'd be hard pressed to believe that most of them have never once checked out the Paizo website.
I could maybe believe a 50/50 rough split.
It's information I got from people who deal with this stuff professionally.
It's not that they don't use the internet; it's that the level of engagement involved to seek out boards like this is very unusually high.
Nerdy Canuck |
Nerdy Canuck wrote:Wouldn't that mean that most groups have someone that will see the boards and figure the problem out?
It's not that they don't use the internet; it's that the level of engagement involved to seek out boards like this is very unusually high.
Nope. The percentage always ends up being well smaller than that.
And aside from that, that person accessing the boards doesn't mean they get to tell the other players how to play the game.
Fact is, something that had to be figured out on these boards is not a law of how the game works.
BigNorseWolf |
Fact is, something that had to be figured out on these boards is not a law of how the game works.
I think most gamers are smart enough that if you're throwing lots of very expensive grenades and then don't have any money for armor at least one viable solution is to not throw quite so many expensive grenades.
Wealth by level and loot by encounter ARE in the book. They can't/won't tell you how often you should be upgrading but it's pretty obvious from that chapter that if you're tossing a grenade every round you're going to go broke very quickly.
Nerdy Canuck |
Nerdy Canuck wrote:
Fact is, something that had to be figured out on these boards is not a law of how the game works.
I think most gamers are smart enough that if you're throwing lots of very expensive grenades and then don't have any money for armor at least one viable solution is to not throw quite so many expensive grenades.
Wealth by level and loot by encounter ARE in the book. They can't/won't tell you how often you should be upgrading but it's pretty obvious from that chapter that if you're tossing a grenade every round you're going to go broke very quickly.
You're assuming that only one option at a branching point happens. Meanwhile, doubling down on a strategy that's working for you (see: using a lot of grenades) is a pretty reasonable approach when players start running into the problems that come with being behind on gear.
There are two possibilities, and neither is inherently more likely than the other. One of them produces a very bad spiral effect.
There are enough counters available for grenades that being punished by wealth deficiencies is not a necessary means to balance them.
BigNorseWolf |
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You're assuming that only one option at a branching point happens.
Not in the least.
First of all, this is a group game. This will be avoided by other members in your party (unless you for some unfathomable reason have EVERYONE going grenade happy.. which i don't think is a reasonable assumption) Your mind blaster, star shaman, and technomancer will all still be moderately effective naked or under wbled. The melee guy that just bought a new sword instead of a bag of grenades is going to be an example to the mad bomber of what happens when you don't spend your money on consumables.
Secondly, a fair bit of looting is done as murdermart. Even if the mad bomber blows all of his liquid credits on grenades, he's still getting the occasional armor and weapon upgrade (if he's determined enough to sell those to buy grenades, he now has a problem and needs an intervention)
Lastly, again. There's no death spiral here. Quite the opposite. As soon as you start doing something else your low level screw ups stop mattering in a level or 2 when you take in enough cash to equal everything you got over your previous entire career.
Ascalaphus |
Yeah, with the speed at which you accrue new wealth, any poor choices have become inconsequential in 2-4 levels because the amount of wealth you get increases so fast.
I think the "right way" to buy gear is hard to see, I don't think even we agree on the "correct" frequency of upgrading armor and weapons. The planned obsolescence of lower level items makes it harder to guess what's good.
But that doesn't mean finding a "good enough" way is impossible. After playing a few levels people will stumble across the understanding that constant upgrading is unsustainable, and also that grenades are just ridiculously expensive and feeble compared to other weapons. I think it's pretty natural to gravitate towards only using found grenades or carrying 1-2 for special occasions.
Hawk Kriegsman |
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I am in the camp that believes grenades are overpriced and underwhelm.
My grenade house rules are:
1: The listed cost for a grenade in my game is for a box of 12.
2: Weapon Specialization applies to grenades.
My players still rarely buy grenades, but they certainly loot them from enemy bodies.
Additionally my players rarely even throw grenades.
Nerdy Canuck |
I am in the camp that believes grenades are overpriced and underwhelm.
My grenade house rules are:
1: The listed cost for a grenade in my game is for a box of 12.
2: Weapon Specialization applies to grenades.
My players still rarely buy grenades, but they certainly loot them from enemy bodies.
Additionally my players rarely even throw grenades.
I would imagine that would interface in some interesting ways with something like a Bombard Soldier...
Ascalaphus |
I'd lean more towards making grenades stronger, than cheaper. If grenades aren't exactly cheap, but noticeably strong compared to items accessible on their level, they might become a "special occasion" weapon. Of course, Bombard soldiers would also like that.
The thing I'd like to change most is the save DC against the grenade's effects. Because that's really where it all goes wrong: if you succeed at the save against the grenade you don't get secondary effects, which makes most of them pointless. And any penalties to your attack roll (like range increments, or nonproficiency) bring down this save DC.
Hawk Kriegsman |
Hawk Kriegsman wrote:I would imagine that would interface in some interesting ways with something like a Bombard Soldier...I am in the camp that believes grenades are overpriced and underwhelm.
My grenade house rules are:
1: The listed cost for a grenade in my game is for a box of 12.
2: Weapon Specialization applies to grenades.
My players still rarely buy grenades, but they certainly loot them from enemy bodies.
Additionally my players rarely even throw grenades.
Actually I just read Bombard. I must be missing something looking at what it gives you.
Xenocrat |
Nerdy Canuck wrote:Actually I just read Bombard. I must be missing something looking at what it gives you.Hawk Kriegsman wrote:I would imagine that would interface in some interesting ways with something like a Bombard Soldier...I am in the camp that believes grenades are overpriced and underwhelm.
My grenade house rules are:
1: The listed cost for a grenade in my game is for a box of 12.
2: Weapon Specialization applies to grenades.
My players still rarely buy grenades, but they certainly loot them from enemy bodies.
Additionally my players rarely even throw grenades.
I think he's assuming this change would give a bombard soldier 12 personal grenades per 10 minute rest, each of which would add weapon specialization.
Hawk Kriegsman |
Hawk Kriegsman wrote:I think he's assuming this change would give a bombard soldier 12 personal grenades per 10 minute rest, each of which would add weapon specialization.Nerdy Canuck wrote:Actually I just read Bombard. I must be missing something looking at what it gives you.Hawk Kriegsman wrote:I would imagine that would interface in some interesting ways with something like a Bombard Soldier...I am in the camp that believes grenades are overpriced and underwhelm.
My grenade house rules are:
1: The listed cost for a grenade in my game is for a box of 12.
2: Weapon Specialization applies to grenades.
My players still rarely buy grenades, but they certainly loot them from enemy bodies.
Additionally my players rarely even throw grenades.
I really must be missing something.
Under Bombard Grenade Expert it clearly states that you can only have one created grenade at a time.
Where is this creating 12 grenades per rest??
Nerdy Canuck |
Xenocrat wrote:Hawk Kriegsman wrote:I think he's assuming this change would give a bombard soldier 12 personal grenades per 10 minute rest, each of which would add weapon specialization.Nerdy Canuck wrote:Actually I just read Bombard. I must be missing something looking at what it gives you.Hawk Kriegsman wrote:I would imagine that would interface in some interesting ways with something like a Bombard Soldier...I am in the camp that believes grenades are overpriced and underwhelm.
My grenade house rules are:
1: The listed cost for a grenade in my game is for a box of 12.
2: Weapon Specialization applies to grenades.
My players still rarely buy grenades, but they certainly loot them from enemy bodies.
Additionally my players rarely even throw grenades.
I really must be missing something.
Under Bombard Grenade Expert it clearly states that you can only have one created grenade at a time.
Where is this creating 12 grenades per rest??
That's not actually the thought.
The thought is that grenades are weapons with the Explode special property, which means that every ability of the Bombard Fighting Style works with grenades. It's what you'd use to build a grenade specialist already, so it would probably have a pretty significant impact on them.
I'm not sure whether that impact would be good or bad, but it would certainly be there.
Hawk Kriegsman |
Certainly the impact of additional damage of +solider level of damage would begin at level 3.
Not sure what else would change.
The Bombards specialties are ok, not great in my opinion.
Actually, having cheaper grenades and allow them to have weapon specialization, might actually steer players away from taking this fighting style.
Time will tell.
Also I was incorrect in my initial post. The grenade cost is actually for a box of 6 not 12.
Garretmander |
Certainly the impact of additional damage of +solider level of damage would begin at level 3.
Not sure what else would change.
The Bombards specialties are ok, not great in my opinion.
Actually, having cheaper grenades and allow them to have weapon specialization, might actually steer players away from taking this fighting style.
Time will tell.
Also I was incorrect in my initial post. The grenade cost is actually for a box of 6 not 12.
I think the 'issue' is that if you buy grenades by the six pack as a house rule, why isn't the bombard soldier crafting by the six pack as a house rule?
Personally I'm with Ascalaphus, make grenades stronger before you make them cheaper. Add specialization damage. Maybe remove the dex modifier from the save and add full item level, maybe add full item level and dex modifier.
Hawk Kriegsman |
I think the 'issue' is that if you buy grenades by the six pack as a house rule, why isn't the bombard soldier crafting by the six pack as a house rule?
To me they are completely different things.
If a player buys 6 grenades at regular price it does not entitle the bombard to make more than 1 grenade with the grenade expert ability even if he is sitting in the middle of a grenade factory.
So based on what you are saying here if I double the price of grenades then the bombard can only make half of a grenade?
Bombard gets to make free grenades, effectively anywhere at anytime by taking 10 minutes.
There is no need to change this with a change in grenade cost.
The bombard's cost is still 0.