Calculating Caster Level for player-created magic item


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


For some things figuring this is easy; for potions and scrolls, you literally use the Caster level of the spell.

I want to make a ring, intended for a monk, which acts as a continuous "Strong Jaw" spell. This boosts his unarmed combat damage by two size classes.

Per the base rulebook (table 15-29, pg 550), base price is (spell level x caster level x 2000gp) for a continuous spell effect device.

Strong jaw is a 3rd level Ranger or 4th level Druid spell, requiring a minimum 11th level Ranger or 7th level Druid, respectively.

So punching the numbers, that comes to 66k if I get a Ranger to cast the spell for me, or 56k for a Druid.

Do I therefore simply use that caster's level as the item Caster Level? To me, it just seems arbitrary to do that, as the CL is used to calculate the item creation DC.

IOW, it's cheaper, faster to make, and has a lower DC (12 vs 16) if I find myself a Druid instead of a Ranger spellcaster to assist my mage.

Or am I totally off the track, here?


Remember, you can bypass finding a caster with the spell by raising the Spellcraft DC by 5 and just wingin' it. In that case, the "usual" rule for such things is to calculate as if a Wizard/Cleric/Druid were casting it, then move on to the other various classes if they can't.

So calculate with a CL 7, with DC 5 harder. (or find a druid who will hang out with you for the entire crafting period)


CRB wrote:
Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his ranger level – 3.

may be worth noting.

Continuous effect spell effect items aren’t handled well by the pricing rules; I would go with a price that makes sense instead. But I think you appear to have interpreted the rules as written properly.


You are on track on figuring out the caster level. The primary effect, once created, the caster level will have on this device his how easy it is to be suppressed by a dispel magic or similar thing, although Lelomenia is correct that the 11th level ranger would have a caster level of 8.

The spell formula is the last, not the first, method a GM should use to determine a price. Your post say 'my mage' so it sounds like you are a player, and while you certainly can do the homework and propose a custom magic item to the GM, including your thoughts on appropriate pricing, the final determination of the price, or even if the item is allowed, is in their court. There are only guidelines, not rules, for the proper price of a custom magic item.


Dave Justus wrote:

You are on track on figuring out the caster level. The primary effect, once created, the caster level will have on this device his how easy it is to be suppressed by a dispel magic or similar thing, although Lelomenia is correct that the 11th level ranger would have a caster level of 8.

The spell formula is the last, not the first, method a GM should use to determine a price. Your post say 'my mage' so it sounds like you are a player, and while you certainly can do the homework and propose a custom magic item to the GM, including your thoughts on appropriate pricing, the final determination of the price, or even if the item is allowed, is in their court. There are only guidelines, not rules, for the proper price of a custom magic item.

Our GMs policy for custom items/spells/whatever is "give me a write-up and I'll let you know". The more you adhere to the rulebook in such things, the more likely he is to say yes with minimal tweaking.

Re-reading the book, I see now that placing a class restriction on the item drops the price by 30%. I missed that earlier. So now I can make it a monk-only item (who else would want it anyway?) and put the price at (Druid L7 x Spell L4 x 2000 x 0.7) = 39.2k.

Skipping finding a druid spellcaster to help, the DC is now a 17. As a newly minted level 7 mage with Forge Ring, my spellcraft is at +16.

So all I have to do is not roll a 1.

Famous last words.


You can take on 10 spellcraft rolls to make magic items.

You may want to use a higher caster level for some magic items. Caster levels can improve the resistances for magic items. Useful to prevent damage, being turned off, or suffer some other effect.

You might want to reconsider the price reduction for class restriction. Many view it as an advantage because it can easily work as a security feature.


Price drops for class restrictions are okay for the GM but easily abused by players and shouldn't be used when creating original items. It's basically just a straight boost.

As a good rule of thumb, anything duplicating a spell effect shouldn't have a caster level below the minimum amount needed to cast that spell. Especially if it involves saving throws, because lower caster level also means lower saves and that's kind of counterproductive. XD


harbqll wrote:


Re-reading the book, I see now that placing a class restriction on the item drops the price by 30%. I missed that earlier. So now I can make it a monk-only item (who else would want it anyway?) and put the price at (Druid L7 x Spell L4 x 2000 x 0.7) = 39.2k.

Don't do this. If it's not a real limitation (since you're making it for a monk anyway), it shouldn't affect the cost. If I were your GM I'd make this a No.


harbqll wrote:

For some things figuring this is easy; for potions and scrolls, you literally use the Caster level of the spell.

I want to make a ring, intended for a monk, which acts as a continuous "Strong Jaw" spell. This boosts his unarmed combat damage by two size classes.

Per the base rulebook (table 15-29, pg 550), base price is (spell level x caster level x 2000gp) for a continuous spell effect device.

Strong jaw is a 3rd level Ranger or 4th level Druid spell, requiring a minimum 11th level Ranger or 7th level Druid, respectively.

So punching the numbers, that comes to 66k if I get a Ranger to cast the spell for me, or 56k for a Druid.

Do I therefore simply use that caster's level as the item Caster Level? To me, it just seems arbitrary to do that, as the CL is used to calculate the item creation DC.

IOW, it's cheaper, faster to make, and has a lower DC (12 vs 16) if I find myself a Druid instead of a Ranger spellcaster to assist my mage.

Or am I totally off the track, here?

harbqll wrote:

Our GMs policy for custom items/spells/whatever is "give me a write-up and I'll let you know". The more you adhere to the rulebook in such things, the more likely he is to say yes with minimal tweaking.

Re-reading the book, I see now that placing a class restriction on the item drops the price by 30%. I missed that earlier. So now I can make it a monk-only item (who else would want it anyway?) and put the price at (Druid L7 x Spell L4 x 2000 x 0.7) = 39.2k.

Skipping finding a druid spellcaster to help, the DC is now a 17. As a newly minted level 7 mage with Forge Ring, my spellcraft is at +16.

So all I have to do is not roll a 1.

Famous last words.

You messed up a lot of stuff.

Custom magic item rule 1: find something similar and price based on that. Using the formula is only done if a similar item is not to be found. Nearest item I can find is the Amulet of Mighty Fists.

The spell Strong Jaw is 4th level druid (min caster level 7th) and 3rd level ranger (min caster level 10th). Across all levels, a monk will average about a +7 damage to all attacks. The amulet above is priced at bonus squared times 4K. Since you are only getting half the bonus (damage and not attack) that is half price. [Look up the explanation of the ring of True Strike.] It is, however, a size bonus and not an enhancement bonus, so would stack with that amulet. This imposes an increase of from 25% to 100%, making it from 122,500 gp to 196,000 gp. As a GM, I would probably price it at 150,000 gp.

Ninjamancer wrote:
the "usual" rule for such things is to calculate as if a Wizard/Cleric/Druid were casting it, then move on to the other various classes if they can't.

This is a house rule. The correct rule is:

SRD wrote:
Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

The formula is CL * SL * 2000 * DurationFactor. For a minute per level spell, the DurationFactor is 2. Using the druid version you get: 4*7*2,000*2=112,000 gp for a continuous item. [The ranger version would be 120,000 gp.]

Your calculation for the DC is correct, but a roll of 1 is not an automatic failure. If your skill is +16 and you need a 17, then you cannot fail.

I am not sure who said it, but the rule for price reductions has a GM caveat: Any limitation that does not limit is not a limit. Therefore making it for your monk with a limitation of monk only gives zero reduction.

Were I to go for something like this, I would go for charges per day, which would drop the price a lot, for the need to activate it with a standard action. Given the 7 minute duration, that should be long enough for one or two fights.

/cevah


Yeah, adding the class restriction as a player is a meaningless thing that a GM shouldn't allow in my opinion.

Strong jaw is something that anyone with natural attacks benefits from. Which can be virtually everyone. The class restriction is arbitrary, and trying to add that restriction to decrease the GP value in no way decreases the usefulness to the player.

Now, magic glasses that had a constant see alignment (evil) effect that worked for a paladin would be a reasonable thing to have a price adjustment on.

A) It's not a combat boost, which is where the real danger lies
2) It's thematically appropriate.

Because otherwise you end up with someone trying to say that a magic item is restricted to their character's class, race, deity, alignment etc claiming they get a 90% discount even though their character can use it perfectly fine.

No. That's not how it works.


I get a big kick out of it when a player tries usimg the whole, "I get 90% off this item because it'll only work for a NG Elven Wizard." I always let it slide, it's hilarious when they find magic items from monsters/NPCs, because I always say something along the lines of, "You found Super Cool Magic Item Xxxxx, but it only works for CE Lizardfolk Barbrian, but you MIGHT be able to sell it for 5% of it's original retail price." Players quickly change their minds on stuff like that, particularly when they realize their WBL is only 5% of what it should be.


Well, if you can reliably hit a DC 30 UMD, you can use that ring. You just have to make the following DCs:
30: Emulate an Alignment (CE)
25: Emulate a Race (Lizardfolk)
20: Emulate a Class Feature (Barbrian)
And you have to do it each hour.

/cevah, with UMB of 26 at 14th level


You could also compare this to an amulet of mighty fists with the impact enchantment twice (not legal, but a comparison). If we add an extra +1 to the cost for the legality issue it is a +5 cost equivalent, or 50K gp to create.


Cevah wrote:


Ninjamancer wrote:
the "usual" rule for such things is to calculate as if a Wizard/Cleric/Druid were casting it, then move on to the other various classes if they can't.

This is a house rule. The correct rule is:

SRD wrote:
Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

I'd be wary of that rule. It might have made some sense when just the PH was around with fairly light variation. But once the APG came out with the summoner and early access to haste, I think that rule went a bit off.

In play, the summoner may get haste just a single level before wizards, but it's quite a switch in calculating magic item costs. It'll take a factor of 15 (3rd level spell, 5th level caster) down to an 8 (2nd level spell, 4th level caster) and lowball the market price considerably.

There's a reason the PFS campaign adopted the campaign/house rule that purchased wands had to be calculated based on cleric/druid/wiz prices if at all possible. It was to avoid the oddballs that could significantly cheapen powerful magic effects.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Calculating Caster Level for player-created magic item All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion