Mage Hand Magic Trick: Throw Punch


Rules Questions


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Quote:
You can use mage hand to strike an opponent within the spell’s range. This is a melee attack that always deals 1d3 points of force damage. The mage hand has an attack bonus equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest. Spell resistance applies against this ability.

Does the "always" wording mean that Throw Punch's damage cannot be modified by any means, such as Power Attack or Sneak Attack?


Wow, that's a bad choice of words. It could be read so many ways, but I suspect that the actual meaning was that it does 1d3 regardless of how large the caster is.

The most OP reading would be that it always deals damage, without needing to roll for attack. And I suppose the most restrictive reading would be that indeed, you can only ever do a maximum of 1d3 points of damage with this option.


What is this from?


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Chronicle of Legends. It's an expansion of the magic trick feat.


Sweet that feat needed more options


I think that it means what it says, that it can only ever do 1d3 force damage and it requires a melee attack. It basically gives you a very odd attack cantrip. But in addition to that use can use any of the other tricks associated with that spell provided you meet the prerequisites. All in all it seems like a pretty neat feat.


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It’s kind of worthless if you can’t add other things to it though. Because otherwise you would always still just use ray of frost or acid splash instead.

If you spend a feat for magic trick and then another very unusual feat choice for unarmed strike, then the result should be at least as good as a regular attack cantrip.


Well it does force damage, and it least you get an attack cantrip while still having a utility cantrip. Also, you use strength on melee attacks and should be able to apply bonuses to hit you can only get on melee attacks which makes it unique. It's not amazing, but that isn't the only benefit of the feat either.

Edit: I should clarify. I'm not saying that you can add your strength bonus to damage, but since it says it's a melee attack you can add your strength bonus to attack.


The feat is still good because there are a lot of other benefits for Magic Trick(Mage Hand) - Dirty Magic Trick, Powerful Hand, and Subtle Hand are enough to make it a feat that some characters would want to take. It's just that this reading means Throw Punch in particular is terrible.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
You can use mage hand to strike an opponent within the spell’s range. This is a melee attack that always deals 1d3 points of force damage. The mage hand has an attack bonus equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest. Spell resistance applies against this ability.

What? A melee attack with a range of 25'+5' every 2 levels?

It is (or at least should be) a ranged attack.
Probably the writer meant that it isn't a touch attack.

The "always deals 1d3 points of force damage" probably was used to specify that it is not affected by your strength, even when it has a negative modifier.

Badly written and it needs some editing.

Another effect of it being "a melee attack" is that the casting provokes an AoO, but the attack doesn't. But I would have preferred an extra line saying that using this trick doesn't provoke.


baggageboy wrote:

Well it does force damage, and it least you get an attack cantrip while still having a utility cantrip. Also, you use strength on melee attacks and should be able to apply bonuses to hit you can only get on melee attacks which makes it unique. It's not amazing, but that isn't the only benefit of the feat either.

Edit: I should clarify. I'm not saying that you can add your strength bonus to damage, but since it says it's a melee attack you can add your strength bonus to attack.

Uh... no? The mage hand has an attack bonus equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest.


The big difference in being melee is that you don’t have to worry about shooting into combat.


Xelaaredn wrote:
baggageboy wrote:

Well it does force damage, and it least you get an attack cantrip while still having a utility cantrip. Also, you use strength on melee attacks and should be able to apply bonuses to hit you can only get on melee attacks which makes it unique. It's not amazing, but that isn't the only benefit of the feat either.

Edit: I should clarify. I'm not saying that you can add your strength bonus to damage, but since it says it's a melee attack you can add your strength bonus to attack.

Uh... no? The mage hand has an attack bonus equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest.

Right! That's what I get for posting while distracted. Still is a unique ability, quite odd.


Melkiador wrote:
The big difference in being melee is that you don’t have to worry about shooting into combat.

Just what are the rules for shooting into combat? I don't recall ever seeing them.


combat chapter wrote:

Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)

If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.

If your target is two size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with, this penalty is reduced to –2. There is no penalty for firing at a creature that is three size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with.

Precise Shot: If you have the Precise Shot feat, you don't take this penalty.

I’ve never actually noticed the modifiers for size before. So, I’m sure I’ve played that wrong at some point.


Ah, after that I recall them. Thanks!


This is really odd. You can use it to make a melee attack. It has an attack bonus equal to caster level plus stat, but doesn't mention removing normal bonuses to melee attacks such as BAB. Typically spells like this would say something like "uses caster level in place of BAB". Are you casting the spell for this effect, or can you use it as long as you're concentrating. Do you get extra attacks from a high BAB? Does it apply non-damaging riders on melee attacks?


ErichAD wrote:
This is really odd. You can use it to make a melee attack. It has an attack bonus equal to caster level plus stat, but doesn't mention removing normal bonuses to melee attacks such as BAB. Typically spells like this would say something like "uses caster level in place of BAB". Are you casting the spell for this effect, or can you use it as long as you're concentrating. Do you get extra attacks from a high BAB? Does it apply non-damaging riders on melee attacks?

You are not the one making the attack, the Mage Hand is making the attack. It has an attack modifier equal to your caster level, plus your highest mental stat modifier. That's it. One attack, 1d3 force damage. Presumably you are making the attack in place of picking up an object. So standard action to maintain concentration on further rounds, move action to make the attack, presumably within the range it can move.

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