Where did Alchemists land as at the end of the playtest


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I was wondering if people could help me with where alchemists ended at the end of the playtest as I didn’t really follow it

I recall them having problems early on due to resonance

And I know they are no longer pseudo spell casters where extracts are spell slots

So what is their role ? Do they still rely on bombs , alchemist fire etc for combat abilities ? Or is there a pathways between mutagen and bomb route?

I am just intrigued because the new class thread brings up a desire for more classes that don’t rely on spells (because there is discussion about up to 10 casters due to prepared and spontaneous and flexi choice for all 4 lists) but aren’t pure traditional martials

Alchemist seems to be one of the few that fit this criteria from the existing class list (and the one that has made it into the core book)

So what were they after all the changes (as I know there were lots by the 6th patch )


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This thread title made me think of this gem:

"The Alchemists’ Guild is opposite the Gamblers’ Guild. Usually. Sometimes it’s above it, or below it, or falling in bits around it."
(Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms)

I don't really have anything to add beyond that, except that we'll know in about a month.


I was more intrigued as to where the absolute final playtest version placed them.

I understand that is potentially pointless as it could have changed the final version is due in a month. But I thought it might be a useful steer

Neither the glass cannon or the oblivion oath use them so I don’t know at all


I'm interested as to whether they can use guns. Or if guns even exist.


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Aiden2018 wrote:
I'm interested as to whether they can use guns. Or if guns even exist.

Rules for guns won't be in the core rules. It's likely they will be in a later book though. Early in the playtest they said they wanted to playtest firearms on their own, with the rest of the system fixed and so weren't even considering them for the CRB.

Which seems wise since, for example, "touch AC" was a thing that existed in the playtest, but has since been removed.


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Yeah, they aren't reflavored spellcasters anymore. They use items they craft and which now scale up with them along with the usual mutagens. They can craft some alch items per day for free and can also craft mid-fight. Most of the alch items are different elemental bombs as well as potion-style support items.


Alchemist gets as was said before free magic items per day

You can use your alchemical batch pool to instantly create them in battle or when approprirate, or while doing your daily preperations for an better ratio (2 identical items for one charge)

They also get a specialisation which gives them special abilities and a number of starting recipes

the research field were called bomber, chirugeon, mutagenist and poisoner, each gaining some recipies in their specific fields and some fitting bonus (the poisoner could use poisons on their weapon in a single round instead of 3 for example)

well, that was the 1.6 playtest update, it might have changed but I think it was pretty decent


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To elaborate a bit:

As of Playtest 1.6 they get Level+Int mod "Reagents" per day. They can use any number of those during daily preparations to make items that last for that day. They can make any Alchemical item their level or lower that they have a formula for, getting a pair of items for each reagent spent.

Then during the day they can use a feature called Quick Alchemy to spend one action to pop out a single Alchemical item their level or lower at the cost of one reagent but it only lasts for that turn. Later levels you can make multiple items with that action but still one reagent per item.

So they are completely decoupled from Resonance now.

There are various feats that augment this, like adding effects to bombs made with Quick Alchemy or letting you make an Elixir with two effects for extra reagents.

As was said, they choose a path that gives various boons at certain levels, and you also gain the ability to use your one-action craft to pop out specific Lowe level items without reagent cost. The use of a lot of these items is suspect but for bombers at least it's pretty solid due to being able to add special effects from feats and doing minor damage even on a miss.

Generally if you want to be combat focused you want to go Bomber, but any path can still craft and chuck bombs competently. There aren't any path-locked formulae or anything (except Mutagens are Uncommon and Mutagenists gain access, but Uncommon used as I just means it's a bit of extra work to find the thing without automatic access).

All in all I think Alchemists were in a pretty good place as of 1.6, they have a lot of ways they can contribute and they definitely stand as more unique than PF1 Alcs IMO.


Interesting . So you don’t have to be a bomber?
But surely the chirugeon (non magical healer) will have limited combat options as unlike a cleric there wouldn’t be buff spells...


I would guess that if you go chirugeon you have to rely on whatever weapons and armor you can use
maybe one should pick up shield prophiciency to increase survivability

and you always can pick up formulas that differ from your research field - a bomber, a poisoner and a chorugeon could all pick up a mutagen to buff themselves in a tight spot


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The Poisoner did not make it into the 2E Corebook; just the Bomber, Mutagenist, and Chirurgeon.

The UK Expo had a broadcast interview they conducted with Paizo where they flipped through the book onscreen and showed a lot of the Alchemist stuff. Forum user, dmerceless, saved still shots of that interview here. Much of the Alchemist class can be read there.


Lanathar wrote:

Interesting . So you don’t have to be a bomber?

But surely the chirugeon (non magical healer) will have limited combat options as unlike a cleric there wouldn’t be buff spells...

Compared to a bomber, in using bombs they have lower accuracy due to bomb proficiency being part of the Bomber path, they don't gain the ability to remove the splash damage from a bomb to avoid friendly fire, and they don't gain resource-free bombs. Possibly more to it, I could be forgetting something. So yeah, definitely lesser than the bomber, but they can still be competent similar to how casters can be altogether competent with weapons but are missing a bunch of perks Martials get.

Liberty's Edge

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Lanathar wrote:

Interesting . So you don’t have to be a bomber?

But surely the chirugeon (non magical healer) will have limited combat options as unlike a cleric there wouldn’t be buff spells...

Mutagens are some of the best buffs in the game and evidence suggests they are no longer uncommon (specifically, we've seen the text of Mutagenist and it makes no reference to making mutagens available).

So it rather depends on what you mean by 'buffs'. Alchemists in general are probably pretty great at self buffs...buffing others is a slightly different matter.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lanathar wrote:

Interesting . So you don’t have to be a bomber?

But surely the chirugeon (non magical healer) will have limited combat options as unlike a cleric there wouldn’t be buff spells...

Mutagens are some of the best buffs in the game and evidence suggests they are no longer uncommon (specifically, we've seen the text of Mutagenist and it makes no reference to making mutagens available).

So it rather depends on what you mean by 'buffs'. Alchemists in general are probably pretty great at self buffs...buffing others is a slightly different matter.

Mutagens can be made for other people, they are just keyed to a specific individual. So if you take a bit of the monk's hair they can have a bestial mutagen.

Which makes them the strongest buffers in the game if you can work around their wonky onset times. A level appropriate mutagens provides a larger item bonus to hit than a level appropriate weapon. that means that not only will it give a dedicated archer +1 to hit, but it will turn a character without ranged investment (such as a melee rogue) into a character with equal to hit chance.

Best of all, this is one of the best ways to get item bonuses on bombs. So to use a real example, our alchemist outfitted the entire party with Quicksilver Mutagens and Liquid Ices to fight a red Dragon before challenging it.

So the alchemist wound up extremely strong... if you applied a LOT of system mastery. How it stacks up in the final version remains to be seen. Item bonuses shrinking might not have been good for it, for example.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Item bonuses shrinking might not have been good for it, for example.

Or it might have been awesome. Back in playtest, a lot of alchemical items wound up falling behind permanent items, so they never really applied unless the character was naked - shrinking permanent bonuses means it's easier to allow for alchemical items to overflow the permanent benefit.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ediwir wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Item bonuses shrinking might not have been good for it, for example.
Or it might have been awesome. Back in playtest, a lot of alchemical items wound up falling behind permanent items, so they never really applied unless the character was naked - shrinking permanent bonuses means it's easier to allow for alchemical items to overflow the permanent benefit.

True. A lot of unknowns. It certainly should be easier to judge the net effect of a mutagens with less invested item bonus.

I think the biggest thing the alchemist needed was ease of play improvements. for example, letting the alchemist "heighten" items to their greater versions for free wouldn't drastically strengthen the class (since they can buy formulas anyway) but I think it would dramatically improve the quality of life when it comes time to pick new items.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Ediwir wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Item bonuses shrinking might not have been good for it, for example.
Or it might have been awesome. Back in playtest, a lot of alchemical items wound up falling behind permanent items, so they never really applied unless the character was naked - shrinking permanent bonuses means it's easier to allow for alchemical items to overflow the permanent benefit.

True. A lot of unknowns. It certainly should be easier to judge the net effect of a mutagens with less invested item bonus.

I think the biggest thing the alchemist needed was ease of play improvements. for example, letting the alchemist "heighten" items to their greater versions for free wouldn't drastically strengthen the class (since they can buy formulas anyway) but I think it would dramatically improve the quality of life when it comes time to pick new items.

Lol, I'm doing exactly that. XD

Though with the Playtest limited item selection it means the Alchemist doesn't have 2 on-level items every level necessarily...


Captain Morgan wrote:

Best of all, this is one of the best ways to get item bonuses on bombs. So to use a real example, our alchemist outfitted the entire party with Quicksilver Mutagens and Liquid Ices to fight a red Dragon before challenging it.

LOL same! Part 4? Though it wasn't the whole party with ours, just Dex characters.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Edge93 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Best of all, this is one of the best ways to get item bonuses on bombs. So to use a real example, our alchemist outfitted the entire party with Quicksilver Mutagens and Liquid Ices to fight a red Dragon before challenging it.

LOL same! Part 4? Though it wasn't the whole party with ours, just Dex characters.

Yup. I used the caster version of the dragon as a plot tie in to a previous draconic sorcerer, so it could use spells and breath weapons to annihilate the party from range. Giving everyone the ices forced it into melee, which was obviously good for the Barbarian and Paladin.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Edge93 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Best of all, this is one of the best ways to get item bonuses on bombs. So to use a real example, our alchemist outfitted the entire party with Quicksilver Mutagens and Liquid Ices to fight a red Dragon before challenging it.

LOL same! Part 4? Though it wasn't the whole party with ours, just Dex characters.
Yup. I used the caster version of the dragon as a plot tie in to a previous draconic sorcerer, so it could use spells and breath weapons to annihilate the party from range. Giving everyone the ices forced it into melee, which was obviously good for the Barbarian and Paladin.

Is this due to new vulnerability rules where despite the liquid ice having limited base damage it adds 5 or 10 depending on the creature

This makes the alchemist seem like a potentially very good utility character in this edition as it has damaging items for several elements along with silver sheen etc

I’d sooner have an option to no *have* to use bombs - more from a concept stand point - if we consider alchemy to have real science mixed in then healing / poisoning is very different to explosives (for example)


Lanathar wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Edge93 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Best of all, this is one of the best ways to get item bonuses on bombs. So to use a real example, our alchemist outfitted the entire party with Quicksilver Mutagens and Liquid Ices to fight a red Dragon before challenging it.

LOL same! Part 4? Though it wasn't the whole party with ours, just Dex characters.
Yup. I used the caster version of the dragon as a plot tie in to a previous draconic sorcerer, so it could use spells and breath weapons to annihilate the party from range. Giving everyone the ices forced it into melee, which was obviously good for the Barbarian and Paladin.

Is this due to new vulnerability rules where despite the liquid ice having limited base damage it adds 5 or 10 depending on the creature

This makes the alchemist seem like a potentially very good utility character in this edition as it has damaging items for several elements along with silver sheen etc

I’d sooner have an option to no *have* to use bombs - more from a concept stand point - if we consider alchemy to have real science mixed in then healing / poisoning is very different to explosives (for example)

I mean, there's no option that forbids bombs, but you can make an Alchemist perfectly competent with weapons instead if you so choose. That might even be preferable for a poisoner.


This is what i was interested in. I have a friend who wanted to make a character based on the female lead in Outlander (knowledge of healing and medicine mistaken for witchcraft rather than being an actual witch)

Non bombing alchemist looks like a potential avenue for this and it seems like the way it is executed might be more possible in this edition of the game

(For the record they used druid before but that never struck me quite right)


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Lanathar wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Edge93 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Best of all, this is one of the best ways to get item bonuses on bombs. So to use a real example, our alchemist outfitted the entire party with Quicksilver Mutagens and Liquid Ices to fight a red Dragon before challenging it.

LOL same! Part 4? Though it wasn't the whole party with ours, just Dex characters.
Yup. I used the caster version of the dragon as a plot tie in to a previous draconic sorcerer, so it could use spells and breath weapons to annihilate the party from range. Giving everyone the ices forced it into melee, which was obviously good for the Barbarian and Paladin.

Is this due to new vulnerability rules where despite the liquid ice having limited base damage it adds 5 or 10 depending on the creature

This makes the alchemist seem like a potentially very good utility character in this edition as it has damaging items for several elements along with silver sheen etc

I’d sooner have an option to no *have* to use bombs - more from a concept stand point - if we consider alchemy to have real science mixed in then healing / poisoning is very different to explosives (for example)

Yes, that is the thing with weaknesses. And while bomb damage scales decently, especially as alchemists don't have lower level slots,the splash damage really shines on weaknesses since it happens on a miss. It also makes bombs amazing against swarms or troops.

Also, the strategy I outlined above would work fine on an alchemist with no bomb investment beyond the having the basic formulas. IIRC none of the bomb feats applied to allies, so arming the party works fine either way. And alchemists really should try and cram as many formulas into their book as possible, just in case, because they can spontaneously create anything out of it.


Lanathar wrote:

I was more intrigued as to where the absolute final playtest version placed them.

Basically a mundane (non-PC class) character with a personal alchemy shop that gave them free access to X [2*(level+Int bonus)] amount of stuff at the start of the day. Or half as much access later in the day, if they left reagents open.

Feats and Research field gave a few non-replicable bonuses, but I found the class... irksome and fairly lacking. While they'd miss out on a few bonuses, I don't like the idea of class that can be mostly replaced by anyone else walking into an alchemy shop with a thousand gold.

The 1.6 alchemist character I made felt like a fighter without any particular signature abilities, just a bag full of stuff that was magically free.

Some of the utility stuff was useful, but I'd rather have a character with a shtick. Alchemist felt like a generalist backup character... and one that was replaceable to boot.


Unfortunately Voss is kinda right. In a lot of respects Playtest alchemist is like a really really bad 3.5 artificier moreso than it is a PF1 alchemist.


swoosh wrote:
Unfortunately Voss is kinda right. In a lot of respects Playtest alchemist is like a really really bad 3.5 artificier moreso than it is a PF1 alchemist.

I can get what you're saying: it didn't have any exciting features that jump out. In a way, it's a plus not a minus if you think of it as a base to multiclass off of: if you're not excited about the class abilities, you're not too worries about using class feats for something else and seeing the free stuff as a bonus. I found an alchemist/wizard ok [better armor, weapons, hp for less spells and free stuff].


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I'm not sure about Alchemist being boring. At least Bomber, I'm not as sure of the other classes.

The feats you can add to their bombs are really cool, specifically Debilitating Bombs and Sticky Bombs.

And in principle I get the comment about being replaced by anyone walking into an Alchemist shop but in practice, NO. Absolutely no. With the price of on-level consumables versus what you are supposed to gain in wealth per level, there is no contest. After super early levels, if not at super early levels as well, an Alchemist can easily produce more Alchemical goods in a day than a character could get in an entire level. You can really only get a few on level consumables per Level with the WBL.

The healing potential of multiple Elixirs of life and the use of bombs alone are a huge boon, but they have other cool stuff too, and I expect all the more with a full CRB of items.

And bombs are an excellent weapon, with the splash damage, splash to direct target even on miss, and the status effects. Being able to throw loads of them daily is a big thing, again on-level bombs will drain resources quickly wotgout the alchemy factory.

And that's not even getting into the ability to pop them out when you can't get to a shop.

That said, I'd love to see the other paths get some love. I think the Mutagenists getting natural attack boosts makes sense, and the Chirurgeon ability to maximize Elixirs is great, but hoping for some class feats to mix things up. Though IIRC there are a few already, I hope for more though I forget what exactly we have now.


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Edge93, part of what you're saying IMO is more 'these items are useful' more than 'these are cool and exciting'. In a mechanical sense, yes those items are useful but can seem like what they are: items you can go and buy. A guy in PF1 with a wand of cure medium wound that auto recharges might be useful to have around but if that's all they can to it's not very exciting.

On the "Alchemist shop" part, you're thinking of it in a PC way. I see it in an NPC way. You could have a NPC with no alchemy ability but with more wealth than they know what to do with play like an alchemist in most ways. Think of a bad guy you defeat just being a guy with a rack full of alchemy items vs an alchemist: can you tell the difference?

I hope they get more 'wow' abilities that make them stand out in the actual rules.


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The rich guy with more money then sense still would be (most likely) horrible at handling the items (low class bonus, maybe no prophiciency at all)

an arsenal of alchemical items is a lot more worth in the hand of skilled adventurers

and I think the scaling alchemical items are pretty neat

this way you get on the one hand more variety in bombs and so more flexibility for a dedicated bomber and on the other hand the alchemicals stay interesting beyond level 2

I mean, sure, alchemists could use a bit which makes them a bit more awesome, but it is imo already a pretty cool and useful class

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
Edge93, part of what you're saying IMO is more 'these items are useful' more than 'these are cool and exciting'. In a mechanical sense, yes those items are useful but can seem like what they are: items you can go and buy.

The thing about this argument is that, at least in PF1, it applied to literally all spellcasters since all spells can be bought as consumables and anyone with UMD could use them. A rich Expert with hyper-optimized optimized UMD (and you could give him a custom item that gives arbitrary bonuses to it) could quite literally duplicate everything a Wizard could do with enough money. The same is probably true with the right Skill Feat in PF2.

So it falls a little flat as a complaint about Alchemist since it's true of everyone. It's slightly more obvious on Alchemists since they use the same accouterments as the item guy, but it's not all that much less obscured.

There's also the matter of Mutagens, which seem to be made for a specific person, making them tricky to use as consumables too often, and of the Alchemist's ability to pull whatever item they need with an action, something that can only be duplicated by the GM basically cheating.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
The thing about this argument is that, at least in PF1, it applied to literally all spellcasters since all spells can be bought as consumables and anyone with UMD could use them.

The difference is you're seeing them pull out and use a scroll or potion instead of casting. For the PF2 alchemist, you're doing the same thing as someone else does.* At least you see the PF1 making the bomb in front of you when they throw it.

* I'm aware of quick alchemy, but you're disincentivised from using it with normal prep making a batch vs quick alchemy only making one. I know for myself, I didn't use quick alchemy. [Maybe if you have enough different bombs to try to trigger various vulnerabilities it'd be worth saving reagents]

Seisho wrote:
The rich guy with more money then sense still would be (most likely) horrible at handling the items (low class bonus, maybe no prophiciency at all)

It's quite hard to tell proficiency: a run of good or bad rolls could easily make it seem much better of worse than it is.

Seisho wrote:
an arsenal of alchemical items is a lot more worth in the hand of skilled adventurers

*shrug* nothing says the NPC can't be as equally skilled.

Seisho wrote:
and I think the scaling alchemical items are pretty neat

This is more mechanical useful/needed than neat IMO.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
There's also the matter of Mutagens

I can't say I have any experience with them. Didn't play a Mutagenist and I've been told all the formulas are uncommon. [do to color coding rarity, I had to take peoples word for what alchemy items I could pick]


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graystone wrote:
On the "Alchemist shop" part, you're thinking of it in a PC way. I see it in an NPC way. You could have a NPC with no alchemy ability but with more wealth than they know what to do with play like an alchemist in most ways. Think of a bad guy you defeat just being a guy with a rack full of alchemy items vs an alchemist: can you tell the difference?

A level 1 guy pulls out two bombs and throws them both, all in one turn. Is he an alchemist or an expert?

Quick Alchemy, smoke bombs, mutagens, any of the elixir improvements - there's a ton of stuff that distinguishes an alchemist from an expert.

(You'll also certainly be able to tell the difference when his supply of items decays into nothingness overnight.)

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
The difference is you're seeing them pull out and use a scroll or potion instead of casting. For the PF2 alchemist, you're doing the same thing as someone else does.* At least you see the PF1 making the bomb in front of you when they throw it.

Sorta depends, really. If they're using a Wand for most stuff, maybe you don't know that at all. But yeah, I noted that it was a bit more concealed...but it's not functionally different, and from the perspective of playing the character you absolutely do get to see and care about all the differences.

graystone wrote:
* I'm aware of quick alchemy, but you're disincentivised from using it with normal prep making a batch vs quick alchemy only making one. I know for myself, I didn't use quick alchemy. [Maybe if you have enough different bombs to try to trigger various vulnerabilities it'd be worth saving reagents]

Quick Alchemy is very worth it when you need a niche or utility item. It's ridiculously handy to keep a few uses for that situation. People talk about Schroedinger's Wizard and how powerful it is but it doesn't exist, at least not in combat, but Schroedinger's Alchemist is an assumed part of the game. With a little investment, you can have literally any alchemical item whenever you need.

That's shiny, and only gets more so as the list gets better and more expansive (as it inevitably will).

graystone wrote:
It's quite hard to tell proficiency: a run of good or bad rolls could easily make it seem much better of worse than it is.
graystone wrote:
*shrug* nothing says the NPC can't be as equally skilled.

If we're talking that skilled a rich guy, how is this different from fighting a 'not a Fighter' who's very skilled and has magic equipment? That concept really doesn't devalue the Fighter Class, because it's gonna be assumed to be a Fighter.

Likewise, anyone who's actually skilled with alchemical items and uses lots of them will be assumed to be an Alchemist, and play like one...but they're using vast wealth to copy a PC Class, and again you can do that with any Class.

They still have to be Level 7 to be a Level 7 challenge, so I'm not quite sure what the issue is.

graystone wrote:
This is more mechanical useful/needed than neat IMO.

It's certainly necessary. It's also pretty neat a lot of the time. Mutagens in particular are just absurdly good at making you able to do any party role you need to at the drop of a hat for fairly prolonged periods.

graystone wrote:
I can't say I have any experience with them. Didn't play a Mutagenist and I've been told all the formulas are uncommon. [do to color coding rarity, I had to take peoples word for what alchemy items I could pick]

They were Uncommon and available only to Mutagenists in the later iterations of the playtest (in the early iterations all Alchemists got access).

Evidence suggests that if they are still Uncommon in the final game it's back to Alchemists all gaining access since Mutagenist (which we've seen the text of) no longer gives you such access. They are also hard to get as a non-Alchemist since you have to brew them for specific people.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
Lanathar wrote:

Is this due to new vulnerability rules where despite the liquid ice having limited base damage it adds 5 or 10 depending on the creature

Yes, that is the thing with weaknesses. And while bomb damage scales decently, especially as alchemists don't have lower level slots,the splash damage really shines on weaknesses since it happens on a miss. It also makes bombs amazing against swarms or troops.

I had a giddy moment last year when we were getting the preview blogs, and hypothesized "Alchemical Marbles", items that did only splash damage, but that you could potentially throw several at once, each triggering that splash damage separately.

I can't wait to see the final rules to see if such an item would fit in there. Or at least how close I can get it.


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graystone wrote:

Edge93, part of what you're saying IMO is more 'these items are useful' more than 'these are cool and exciting'. In a mechanical sense, yes those items are useful but can seem like what they are: items you can go and buy. A guy in PF1 with a wand of cure medium wound that auto recharges might be useful to have around but if that's all they can to it's not very exciting.

On the "Alchemist shop" part, you're thinking of it in a PC way. I see it in an NPC way. You could have a NPC with no alchemy ability but with more wealth than they know what to do with play like an alchemist in most ways. Think of a bad guy you defeat just being a guy with a rack full of alchemy items vs an alchemist: can you tell the difference?

I hope they get more 'wow' abilities that make them stand out in the actual rules.

A rich NPC swinging around a powerful magic sword looks just as much like a Fighter as this rich Alchemical item NPC looks like an Alchemist. Does that also make Fighters "useful but not cool and exciting?"

No. Because Fighters have extra options to augment their weaponing just as Alchemists have extra options to augment their alchemy.

Not to mention the variety of items you can pop out at a moment's notice IS exciting honestly, and given the requirements for Crafting high level items it's not like they're easily found at the local store.

But even if that doesn't do it for someone, as I said Alchemists have stuff to be better at alchemy use than anyone. Rich guy with Alchemical items is no more an Alchemist invalidator than rich guy with magic sword is a Fighter invalidator.

As DMW said, it's a thing with many classes, and it's not really an issue with any.


Cyouni wrote:
A level 1 guy pulls out two bombs and throws them both, all in one turn. Is he an alchemist or an expert?

With abilities like quick draw, it's hard to tell. An alchemist draws 2, throws and throws while quickdraw can draw/throw, draw/throw and have an action left. Noticeable if you watch closely.

PS: I'm also kind of bummed that quick draw is a better feat for alchemists that their own Quick Bomber is.

Cyouni wrote:
Quick Alchemy, smoke bombs, mutagens, any of the elixir improvements - there's a ton of stuff that distinguishes an alchemist from an expert.

I went over quick alchemy and mutagens already: in fact I kind of already went over other items too.

Cyouni wrote:
(You'll also certainly be able to tell the difference when his supply of items decays into nothingness overnight.)

In an NPC you fight? Not usually.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
but it's not functionally different, and from the perspective of playing the character you absolutely do get to see and care about all the differences.

The mechanics might be functionally the same but they can feel the same and that's the point some are making.

graystone wrote:
Quick Alchemy is very worth it when you need a niche or utility item.

It looked like it before I played it but I never had the variety of formulas that it seemed that good vs twice as much of what I knew I'd need. We'll see how it looks with the new and improved alchemist.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
If we're talking that skilled a rich guy, how is this different from fighting a 'not a Fighter' who's very skilled and has magic equipment? That concept really doesn't devalue the Fighter Class, because it's gonna be assumed to be a Fighter.

Mostly with signature class feats I'd think and it's reaction: most of the alchemists feats are behind the scene while the fighters reactive shield, sudden charge and/or combat grab give visual indicators of things someone skilled without the right class wouldn't have.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Mutagens

I'll give all the items a good look when the game comes out since I'll be able to read/use it without help. I'm sure they're helpful, they just weren't something I tried.


graystone wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
A level 1 guy pulls out two bombs and throws them both, all in one turn. Is he an alchemist or an expert?

With abilities like quick draw, it's hard to tell. An alchemist draws 2, throws and throws while quickdraw can draw/throw, draw/throw and have an action left. Noticeable if you watch closely.

PS: I'm also kind of bummed that quick draw is a better feat for alchemists that their own Quick Bomber is.

You're a bit out of date, check the spoilers from the UK game expo. Quick bomber is what it should be now


citricking wrote:
You're a bit out of date, check the spoilers from the UK game expo. Quick bomber is what it should be now

It's nice to see they fixed that. It kind of bugged me. Thanks. ;)

Not that that really changes the larger conversation we're having since it's about the playtest alchemist. If added, it would makes impossible to tell the quick bomber from the quick draw user.


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graystone wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
A level 1 guy pulls out two bombs and throws them both, all in one turn. Is he an alchemist or an expert?

With abilities like quick draw, it's hard to tell. An alchemist draws 2, throws and throws while quickdraw can draw/throw, draw/throw and have an action left. Noticeable if you watch closely.

PS: I'm also kind of bummed that quick draw is a better feat for alchemists that their own Quick Bomber is.

I'm pretty sure bombs weren't considered weapons, especially since they had their own proficiency scale.

graystone wrote:


Cyouni wrote:
Quick Alchemy, smoke bombs, mutagens, any of the elixir improvements - there's a ton of stuff that distinguishes an alchemist from an expert.
I went over quick alchemy and mutagens already: in fact I kind of already went over other items too.

The thing is if you ignore quick alchemy, it's approximately equivalent to ignoring compositions on a bard. You're missing a class-defining feature that you can technically work without, but you're losing a lot of variety, class features related to it, and choice in class feats by doing so.

graystone wrote:


Cyouni wrote:
(You'll also certainly be able to tell the difference when his supply of items decays into nothingness overnight.)
In an NPC you fight? Not usually.

If you got 10 alchemist's fires, for example (that you'd have to identify) from an enemy, you generally expect to use all of those within the same day?


Just checked the playtest, and bombs are considered martial thrown weapons.


Cyouni wrote:
I'm pretty sure bombs weren't considered weapons, especially since they had their own proficiency scale.

Looking at the alchemist, listed under weapons: Trained simple weapons, alchemical bombs. Sure sound like they are weapons and have a weapon proficiency for them. If they aren't weapons how do I attack with them?

Second, look at strike: "You attack with a weapon you’re wielding or with an unarmed attack". If it's not a weapon, you can't use strike and how do you attack with a bomb if you don't strike with it?

EDIT: and ninja'd by Red Metal.

Cyouni wrote:
The thing is if you ignore quick alchemy, it's approximately equivalent to ignoring compositions on a bard.

I can only tell you how I felt for me when I played one: It always seemed a better option to make more items than to make them on the fly. As I already said, I didn't feel that I had a large enough pool of formula to make keeping open used worth it. See the difference between alchemist and the bard is using compositions is just something you can do while quick alchemy is contingent on not using what I think is a pretty class-defining ability: making BATCHES of items at the start of the day. You can't really compare an always usable feature with a binary feature that exclude using the feature when used.

As to the last, I misread a bit: You're talking about treasure after an npc attack. I was talking about how they feel in a fight not about what happens after the fight. The fact that some of the alchemists items go bad later doesn't really impact what I was saying. Sorry for the confusion.


graystone wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
I'm pretty sure bombs weren't considered weapons, especially since they had their own proficiency scale.

Looking at the alchemist, listed under weapons: Trained simple weapons, alchemical bombs. Sure sound like they are weapons and have a weapon proficiency for them. If they aren't weapons how do I attack with them?

Second, look at strike: "You attack with a weapon you’re wielding or with an unarmed attack". If it's not a weapon, you can't use strike and how do you attack with a bomb if you don't strike with it?

EDIT: and ninja'd by Red Metal.

Fair. I suspect the thing I was thinking about was how they constantly had their own proficiency scale, and how they had their own item bonuses not connected to anything else.

graystone wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
The thing is if you ignore quick alchemy, it's approximately equivalent to ignoring compositions on a bard.

I can only tell you how I felt for me when I played one: It always seemed a better option to make more items than to make them on the fly. As I already said, I didn't feel that I had a large enough pool of formula to make keeping open used worth it. See the difference between alchemist and the bard is using compositions is just something you can do while quick alchemy is contingent on not using what I think is a pretty class-defining ability: making BATCHES of items at the start of the day. You can't really compare an always usable feature with a binary feature that exclude using the feature when used.

As to the last, I misread a bit: You're talking about treasure after an npc attack. I was talking about how they feel in a fight not about what happens after the fight. The fact that some of the alchemists items go bad later doesn't really impact what I was saying. Sorry for the confusion.

I do really think you're missing out on a lot if you completely ignore Quick Alchemy, especially given you do have a short list of items you can craft for free depending on the field. (I'm hoping they revised the chirurgeon and mutagenist ones to overlap less with currently available equipment.)

For a bomber, at least, it's decently useful, especially given you can trigger weaknesses or apply statuses with even the lowest power bombs. Level 7, for example - Quick Alchemy for free to create a minor bottled lightning, draw a bomb as part of that thanks to Quick Bomber, throw good bomb, throw free bomb. Probably not an amazing use of the second action (though you would be able to get cheap debilitating/smoke bombs out of it), but it's a thing if you want to conserve resources.
Chirurgeon and Mutagenist were unfortunately a lot worse unless you had a weirdly specific need, because the items they created had to be on-level to be relevant. Chirurgeon at least could pull out ridiculous levels of healing in an instant, but it only started at level 13.

That said, I feel pretty confident that you could easily identify a bomber and mutagenist on sight - bomber through pinpoint extra damage bombs, mutagenist through instant mutagens - but chirurgeon would be harder. Poisoner might be harder to differentiate from rogue.


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graystone wrote:
I can only tell you how I felt for me when I played one

This is understandable, but it's also very much not proof negative of the usefulness of an ability.

Like, if someone says they never used Bard Compositions because it just didn't feel as good as (other use of action) then that doesn't necessarily mean compositions aren't a good feature.

As a note on Quick Alchemy specifically, some great feats like Debilitating Bomb and Sticky Bomb only work on bombs made with Quick Alchemy. This actually goes pretty well with Perpetual Infusions, which lets you make lower level bombs with QA for free. Free debuff and persistent damage factory basically.


Edge93 wrote:
graystone wrote:
I can only tell you how I felt for me when I played one

This is understandable, but it's also very much not proof negative of the usefulness of an ability.

Like, if someone says they never used Bard Compositions because it just didn't feel as good as (other use of action) then that doesn't necessarily mean compositions aren't a good feature.

As a note on Quick Alchemy specifically, some great feats like Debilitating Bomb and Sticky Bomb only work on bombs made with Quick Alchemy. This actually goes pretty well with Perpetual Infusions, which lets you make lower level bombs with QA for free. Free debuff and persistent damage factory basically.

I hope Chirurgeon and Mutagenist have been elevated to the same level. I felt their offerings were quite lacking in comparison, mainly because the item bonuses they offered were usually very quickly outpaced by standard equipment.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cyouni wrote:
Edge93 wrote:
graystone wrote:
I can only tell you how I felt for me when I played one

This is understandable, but it's also very much not proof negative of the usefulness of an ability.

Like, if someone says they never used Bard Compositions because it just didn't feel as good as (other use of action) then that doesn't necessarily mean compositions aren't a good feature.

As a note on Quick Alchemy specifically, some great feats like Debilitating Bomb and Sticky Bomb only work on bombs made with Quick Alchemy. This actually goes pretty well with Perpetual Infusions, which lets you make lower level bombs with QA for free. Free debuff and persistent damage factory basically.

I hope Chirurgeon and Mutagenist have been elevated to the same level. I felt their offerings were quite lacking in comparison, mainly because the item bonuses they offered were usually very quickly outpaced by standard equipment.

If you mean for mutagens, they generally stayed just ahead of the comparable items. A 5th level mutagen provides a +2 bonus, as opposed to a 4th level weapon providing a +1. The issue if you need to keep your formula book up to date with the latest and greatest mutagens for that to remain the case, which is a pain. It would be much easier if they could just auto-heighten existing formulas.

But the nice thing is that while you only give a slight bonus to a specialist, you give a much larger bonus to someone who hasn't already invested. So you could make your entire party stealthy, for example.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Edge93 wrote:
graystone wrote:
I can only tell you how I felt for me when I played one

This is understandable, but it's also very much not proof negative of the usefulness of an ability.

Like, if someone says they never used Bard Compositions because it just didn't feel as good as (other use of action) then that doesn't necessarily mean compositions aren't a good feature.

As a note on Quick Alchemy specifically, some great feats like Debilitating Bomb and Sticky Bomb only work on bombs made with Quick Alchemy. This actually goes pretty well with Perpetual Infusions, which lets you make lower level bombs with QA for free. Free debuff and persistent damage factory basically.

I hope Chirurgeon and Mutagenist have been elevated to the same level. I felt their offerings were quite lacking in comparison, mainly because the item bonuses they offered were usually very quickly outpaced by standard equipment.

If you mean for mutagens, they generally stayed just ahead of the comparable items. A 5th level mutagen provides a +2 bonus, as opposed to a 4th level weapon providing a +1. The issue if you need to keep your formula book up to date with the latest and greatest mutagens for that to remain the case, which is a pain. It would be much easier if they could just auto-heighten existing formulas.

But the nice thing is that while you only give a slight bonus to a specialist, you give a much larger bonus to someone who hasn't already invested. So you could make your entire party stealthy, for example.

Oh, yeah, definitely, but your free Quick Alchemy uses are uh...kinda bad. If they let you set people to trained, though, they might be worthwhile?


Edge93 wrote:
graystone wrote:
I can only tell you how I felt for me when I played one

This is understandable, but it's also very much not proof negative of the usefulness of an ability.

Like, if someone says they never used Bard Compositions because it just didn't feel as good as (other use of action) then that doesn't necessarily mean compositions aren't a good feature.

As a note on Quick Alchemy specifically, some great feats like Debilitating Bomb and Sticky Bomb only work on bombs made with Quick Alchemy. This actually goes pretty well with Perpetual Infusions, which lets you make lower level bombs with QA for free. Free debuff and persistent damage factory basically.

Oh, I already said I could already see it might be useful if you bomb and have a decent variety of bombs to trigger whatever vulnerability you want: and of course, bomb feats would add to that.

Myself I went Chirurgeon and tried to have a good mix of offence and healing. Chirurgeon also doubles down on NOT using Quick Alchemy by letting you make 3 elixirs of life per batch instead of 2.

Cyouni wrote:
I do really think you're missing out on a lot if you completely ignore Quick Alchemy

This isn't really right: I didn't ignore it, I actually thought about it a lot. It just never seemed as good an option. IMO, you really want to have a laser focus on a single section of the alchemy items and have as many of that kind as possible to get enough versatility to offset getting less items created in the day. Abilities that trigger off Quick Alchemy also increase it's value too if you take them.


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Cyouni wrote:
Edge93 wrote:
graystone wrote:
I can only tell you how I felt for me when I played one

This is understandable, but it's also very much not proof negative of the usefulness of an ability.

Like, if someone says they never used Bard Compositions because it just didn't feel as good as (other use of action) then that doesn't necessarily mean compositions aren't a good feature.

As a note on Quick Alchemy specifically, some great feats like Debilitating Bomb and Sticky Bomb only work on bombs made with Quick Alchemy. This actually goes pretty well with Perpetual Infusions, which lets you make lower level bombs with QA for free. Free debuff and persistent damage factory basically.

I hope Chirurgeon and Mutagenist have been elevated to the same level. I felt their offerings were quite lacking in comparison, mainly because the item bonuses they offered were usually very quickly outpaced by standard equipment.

Mutagens did seem a bit lacking. But I think a lot of that could be solved if mutagens gave something other than item bonuses. Let them stack with those bonuses from equipment. PF1 had way too many types of bonuses, but the Playtest went to the other extreme and had too few. Hopefully the final PF2 will have a few more than the playtest did.


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I played a Ranger > Alchemist > Wizard in the final Doomsday Dawn act, and in part 1 he was a base alchemist (I was trying to make a Witcher, and that was a bit hard in Playtest 1.0). It was quite neat, you could chuck bombs, heal yourself, pull poisons out of thin air if you need something nasty for the big bad. Overall, I felt that the alchemist had a great foundation, and underwhelming execution of it's vision, from what I've seen of the UK Expo and qtom's MC thread, my hopes for full edition alchemists are as high as Snoop Dog.

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