Previews you would like to see and the fighter


Second Edition


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

We have had in-depth discussion of Champions, Monks, Barbarians, Sorcerers, Wizards, and brief discussion of healing and Clerics. Many host and cast have talked about there favorite characters. What has not come up is the fighter. I believe Jason talked about how the fighter was one of the more important and iconic classes. To be fair these classes were discussed more related to issues they may have had in the playtest. They all seem to have gotten some kind of buff. Did the fighter get one to keep pace. It seems the Barbarian got some class abilities and damage increases through weapon expertise. Did the fighter get this? One would assume since they are supposedly the best at using weapons. In 5e the fighter keeps pace with multiple attacks that most classes do not get and action surge. 13th age adds I die per level. In Pathfinder 2e what is the ability the fighter gets that separates them from other Martials. All the martials its seems eventually get Legendary. Legendary with more weapons groups to me is quite bland I hope that is not it. Are they able to do special attacks with weapons that others cannot do and adds damage dice and or other effects. The playtest had some extra attacks. That may not work as well since there is the cumulative -5. It works in 5e because there is no such penalty. 3 extra attacks can lead to more damage. In pathfinder 2 that is not the case as much with -5 -10 -15. So that is my long winded way of saying that until the core book comes out and I can dive in and see what is different and new from the playtest I will not know.

Liberty's Edge

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We know that Fighters still get better Proficiency in weapons than anyone else by a lot (Expert at 1st, Master at 3rd, Legend at 13th). Given that Proficiency matters more now, this is an absurd DPR enhancer as compared to everyone else.

We also know they get Expert in Will Saves and a bonus vs. fear via a Bravery feature at 3rd level (making them Expert in all Saves at 3rd level, quicker than anyone else except Monks).

Frankly, all the evidence points to Fighters continuing to just have, in many ways, the best combat math in the game, flat out. Other people get tricks to make up for this, of course, but Fighters are just flatly superior in terms of flat numbers.


Isn't it also true that the Fighter will have more class feats and more variation of them? I thought I remembered hearing that somewhere...

If I'm indeed recalling that correctly, it makes them the most mathematically powerful and arguably the most varied and customizable martial class.

Liberty's Edge

Lunatic Barghest wrote:

Isn't it also true that the Fighter will have more class feats and more variation of them? I thought I remembered hearing that somewhere...

If I'm indeed recalling that correctly, it makes them the most mathematically powerful and arguably the most varied and customizable martial class.

I believe they'll be getting free 'floating' Class Feats (that can be reassigned daily) as Class Features at...I want to say 10th and 16th levels? I'd need to look it up to be sure. Two total eventually, anyway. So in practice they have two more Class Feats than anyone else, but both are later in the character's lifespan and technically Class Features.


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Fighter wasn't an inherently broken of a chassis in the playtest; they certainly could use (and got) some positive changes since then, but it was far from in need of the overhaul that classes like, say, the Barbarian got.

My main worry is that their stand-in for the sub-class most other classes are getting is going to be a static numbers boost. If Fighters and Monks are (rightfully, I'd say) being set up as more modular than even the standard for Pathfinder, then they really need to get a wider choices rather than just be better at the fewer choices they get.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is true. but at higher level when the others get Legendary the mathematical bonus is not there since the other martial classes are legendary. I do like the will save at 3rd with bravery. They had 4 styles if I remember correctly. Two weapon, two handed, ranged, and shield. They had some class feats that gave them reactions. So once the mathematical bonus is gone what distinguishes them. What I saw from the playtest was extra attacks and depending on style damage dice. I think at 10th level the two handed got extra damage dice. There was power attack at -5 I think. I also think one of the class features allowed them to gain the cortical effects of weapons that they were proficient in. I just hope the whole things is not based on better to hit bonus that other martial classes will catch up to eventually.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I do like the modularity of the fighter. More and wider choices are also good.

Liberty's Edge

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Dave2 wrote:
This is true. but at higher level when the others get Legendary the mathematical bonus is not there since the other martial classes are legendary.

In the playtest, no other Martial Class actually got to Legendary in attacks. That may well not be true in the final version, but if not I imagine they gave them compensatory stuff at high levels.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ohh, if that is the case that other Martials did not get Legendary then there you go. I had thought they did. That does balance out some then and fits the theme of being better at weapons.


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Attack of Opportunity was also a Fighter Class ability right out the gate at level 1. No other class got that as an ability. Champion had the option as a 6th level feat, while everyone else would have to multiclass into Fighter for it.

Liberty's Edge

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xNellynelx wrote:
Attack of Opportunity was also a Fighter Class ability right out the gate at level 1. No other class got that as an ability. Champion had the option as a 6th level feat, while everyone else would have to multiclass into Fighter for it.

There've been indications that in the final game Barbarians can also grab it with a Feat, but yes nobody else has it cost free from 1st level.


For me, the Fighter and the Rogue were the two classes I felt the best about coming out of the playtest, so I'm less concerned about them as they needed less work than some others.

Which is not to say they need no work (2 action "open" strikes are kind of bad once you get certain strike, and all the opening strikes were 2 actions for some reason.)


Looking at what we know about progression, it’s highly likely that by the time others get Legendary in martial weapons, Fighters will be Legendary in advanced weapons.

If there’s a viable way to run Darth Maul in this game, I’ll call it good.


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For me the preview I both looking forward (and slightly dreading) is what they have done for Charisma in the final product. Resonance (what has become the mechanic that shall not be named to some people, at least going off of some play test forums) at least gave Cha a purpose, flawed it may been, and without it, Charisma as become the pandora box of stats, in what additional benefit past Cha skill bonuses it provides, or if it provides anything past that at all. (Though admittingly, I may have missed an update on Cha statues, real life problems can really suck/ take focus off of other things. If so please ignore prior comment.)

Liberty's Edge

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Siro wrote:
For me the preview I both looking forward (and slightly dreading) is what they have done for Charisma in the final product. Resonance (what has become the mechanic that shall not be named to some people, at least going off of some play test forums) at least gave Cha a purpose, flawed it may been, and without it, Charisma as become the pandora box of stats, in what additional benefit past Cha skill bonuses it provides, or if it provides anything past that at all. (Though admittingly, I may have missed an update on Cha statues, real life problems can really suck/ take focus off of other things. If so please ignore prior comment.)

Charisma has received nothing. They've said as much. It is thus by far the weakest stat, which is unfortunate, but they didn't have a good solution to that which didn't cause more problems.

It's still a good stat for Classes that use it, and various House Rules remain implementable (my own is 'use Wis or Cha for Will Saves, your choice which'), but it hasn't gotten anything to replace Resonance.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Siro wrote:
For me the preview I both looking forward (and slightly dreading) is what they have done for Charisma in the final product. Resonance (what has become the mechanic that shall not be named to some people, at least going off of some play test forums) at least gave Cha a purpose, flawed it may been, and without it, Charisma as become the pandora box of stats, in what additional benefit past Cha skill bonuses it provides, or if it provides anything past that at all. (Though admittingly, I may have missed an update on Cha statues, real life problems can really suck/ take focus off of other things. If so please ignore prior comment.)

Charisma has received nothing. They've said as much. It is thus by far the weakest stat, which is unfortunate, but they didn't have a good solution to that which didn't cause more problems.

It's still a good stat for Classes that use it, and various House Rules remain implementable (my own is 'use Wis or Cha for Will Saves, your choice which'), but it hasn't gotten anything to replace Resonance.

Thanks for the update, though it is a bit disappointing. May try out you solution in a home game. Our groups solution in PF1 was a once per day ability that allowed you to retroactively to apply your Cha mod to a saving throw ( after the die roll, but before the results were revealed.) Thanks again both for the update, and the house rule.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would be fine if the other martial classes did not get legendary. Unless the advanced weapons are clearly better than the others what is the benefit of the fighter. Rogues have sneak attack and Barbarians have rage. What would fighters have? Is it enough to be on par with the other two. Being legendary in advanced weapons does not sound like it. Being the only class that gets legendary with weapons yes.


It’s more about being permanently +2 higher than everyone else. That lets them be on par with others and crit more often. Advanced weapons are statistically stronger, but the selection in playtest was fairly limited, so we’ll have to see how it plays out.


My houserule will be combining CHA with INT bonus to determine bonus languages. You could divide it by 2 to keep similar # of bonus languages, but a more unique solution is buying written & spoken languages separately (i.e. 2 points for both), with a bonus from CHA needing to go to spoken first, and a bonus from INT needing to go to written first. The 2x cost to fully learn a language also protects value of Multilingual Feat, originally written when Playtest had cap of single bonus language (at 14 INT).

Allowing CHA mod to apply to the flat Overcharge check for over-using 1/day items (which always works, check only determines temporary vs permanent destruction) also seems decent bone to throw CHA, although to not make it too broad a bonus for CHA casters (who already do fine with CHA), maybe use 'CHA mod up to relevant magic Skill proficiency'.

Liberty's Edge

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Quandary wrote:
The 2x cost to fully learn a language also protects value of Multilingual Feat, originally written when Playtest had cap of single bonus language (at 14 INT).

We actually don't know this. We have no idea what the Multilingual Feat is like in the final version of the game. I suspect it's changed a fair bit from the playtest given the lower value clearly being placed on languages.


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Previews I'd like to see: hard mechanics. The previews leading up to the playtest were very vague, and very glowy, while the mechanics they described were a lot more... problematic than the preview version. I felt let down a lot. I'd rather not repeat that dance.

For the fighter, I think the one thing I want from the fighter is being able to choose what armor types to increase proficiency in. No being locked to heavy armor late in your career for no reason.

Liberty's Edge

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Voss wrote:
Previews I'd like to see: hard mechanics. The previews leading up to the playtest were very vague, and very glowy, while the mechanics they described were a lot more... problematic than the preview version. I felt let down a lot. I'd rather not repeat that dance.

Harder mechanics previews than the playtest would be good, though I wasn't particularly disappointed in the previews leading to the playtest (I think a lot of people read things into those that weren't there).

Voss wrote:
For the fighter, I think the one thing I want from the fighter is being able to choose what armor types to increase proficiency in. No being locked to heavy armor late in your career for no reason.

This, I agree with entirely. Biggest problem with the Fighter in the playtest in many ways.


Deadmanwalking wrote:


This, I agree with entirely. Biggest problem with the Fighter in the playtest in many ways.

Champion too, please.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Voss wrote:
For the fighter, I think the one thing I want from the fighter is being able to choose what armor types to increase proficiency in. No being locked to heavy armor late in your career for no reason.
This, I agree with entirely. Biggest problem with the Fighter in the playtest in many ways.

Oof. I'm worried about this one. The multiclass archetypes suggest the armor proficiency problem was leaned-into rather than solved :-/

Liberty's Edge

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tqomins wrote:
Oof. I'm worried about this one. The multiclass archetypes suggest the armor proficiency problem was leaned-into rather than solved :-/

Not exactly, they suggest that only the Champion is better than Trained with all types of armor (which solves the issue for the Champion, BTW).

It says nothing about what specific areas others are Experts or Masters in. I'd actually guess that, just as they pick a weapon category to be better than Trained in, they eventually pick a type of armor to be better than Trained in.


Looking at the multiclass feat of champion it looks like they gain better proficiency in all the armors, I can see Fighters being the same.

DIVERSE ARMOR EXPERT (Feat 14) [Archetype]
¶ Your proficiency ranks for light, medium, heavy armor, and unarmored defense increase to expert.

Edit: Got Ninja'd


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would guess that the assumption would be that heavy armor would be the choice since it provides the best protection. I would house rule it if not stated that the training would apply to other armor types.


+2 to attack rolls and maneuvers from level 1 to at least 17 (if not 20) is probably the most powerful class feature in the entire game.
At least for just straight up combat, that is.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Classes with solid heavy armor proficiencies, such as fighter and champion, will not skimp on proficiency with the lighter armors.

Liberty's Edge

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Mark Seifter wrote:
Classes with solid heavy armor proficiencies, such as fighter and champion, will not skimp on proficiency with the lighter armors.

Yay! This answer makes me so happy!

It also implies that other people may gain Proficiency increases only in lighter armors (I could see Rogues in this category, for example). That would make sense given the generalized increase in Proficiencies across the board.


Fighters also got Crit Specialization for every weapon group at the end; and free crit Specializations along the way. I remember seeing a Barbarian preview (maybe it was in the 100 card leak) that mentioned Rage damage was dependent on TEML rank; so it seems Barbarian will be able to get access to Legendary somehow.

The two action open abilities actually weren’t that bad, but they weren’t great either. Things like Power Attack needed at least one more scaling bonus at higher levels. This gave them room to allow the press abilities to be really powerful though. Two Weapon Flurry is kinda ridiculous, especially when you can spend your reaction to use it again at the end of your turn. Certain Strike is really ‘meh’ IMO; it has its use but Double Slice, Power Attack or Charge will be more powerful even for their cost.


Pumpkinhead11 wrote:

Fighters also got Crit Specialization for every weapon group at the end; and free crit Specializations along the way. I remember seeing a Barbarian preview (maybe it was in the 100 card leak) that mentioned Rage damage was dependent on TEML rank; so it seems Barbarian will be able to get access to Legendary somehow.

The two action open abilities actually weren’t that bad, but they weren’t great either. Things like Power Attack needed at least one more scaling bonus at higher levels. This gave them room to allow the press abilities to be really powerful though. Two Weapon Flurry is kinda ridiculous, especially when you can spend your reaction to use it again at the end of your turn. Certain Strike is really ‘meh’ IMO; it has its use but Double Slice, Power Attack or Charge will be more powerful even for their cost.

We've seen high level Barbarian class features, I'm pretty sure I remember not seeing them get legendary. Certain Strike was certainly much better than power attack...


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

They may not have adjusted the level of proficiencies for other martials. Since it went up to 2/4/6/8 the assumption could me made they were. They may not have. I think at 10th two handed would get brutal finish. Which add weapon die. Power attack at 10th adds two weapon die. So that could be 3 weapon die extra.


I think that Power Attack will still be 2 extra dice at 10th lvl, it's a first level feat that trade the potential second attack for the first and more accurate attack be more powerful.

Specially considering that Blade of Justice that is 12th lvl one for Champion only gives 2 extra dice.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Fighters also got Crit Specialization for every weapon group at the end; and free crit Specializations along the way. I remember seeing a Barbarian preview (maybe it was in the 100 card leak) that mentioned Rage damage was dependent on TEML rank; so it seems Barbarian will be able to get access to Legendary somehow.

It could just be listed that way in case you're a fighter multiclassing into barbarian. It could also be future-proofing in case a class archetype grants legendary weapon proficiency. Mentioning a greater effect with legendary proficiency doesn't necessarily mean barbarians get it by default.


citricking wrote:
We've seen high level Barbarian class features, I'm pretty sure I remember not seeing them get legendary.

This sounds silly the way it’s worded. Though i believe it was in the Rage description on one of the Card Leaks where the Rage Damage is scaled with TEML. Weather Barbarian actually gets access to Legendary or not will remain to be seen as you mention.

citricking wrote:
Certain Strike was certainly much better than power attack...

I’m curious if you could elaborate on this. Certain Strike has the Press trait so comparing it to Power Attack seems like Apples and Oranges to me personally; the same with Furious Focus for a lvl 1 choice. Also even without the Press trait it’s actually more valuable the higher your MAP is so using it as an opening strike or even after a basic strike seems either not useful or the Fighter is in a losing battle to begin with.

@Kyrone - I was just thinking of a 3rd weapon die at 15th level or somewhere around there; otherwise i’m Actually okay with it as is.

@Mechalibur - I feel that would just be bad design if that were the case. Why would they change its scaling to TEML if the class it’s designed for specifically can’t use it to its full potential. Niche builds are one thing, but this would mean Fighter would always do more Rage damage than Barbarian which would just seem. . . Wrong, personally speaking.

I could see the argument for MC Archetypes; HK Grey Maiden could give any class Legendary in Heavy Armor at the cost of 4 feats minimum (this includes the dedication feat), but i would imagine there’ll be some way to utilize it to its potential built in somehow.


Power Attack got a bad wrap and all, but it adds 4 dice for a 10th level character on a crit which is preeeetty satisfying


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Well, the issue I had with opening strikes was largely "If I wanted to fit combat grab and certain strike in, I needed a 1-action open, of which the only one was 'strike'." (Certain Strike is amazing with a forceful weapon.)

Certainly some opening attacks should be 2 actions, but assuredly not all of them should.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Well, the issue I had with opening strikes was largely "If I wanted to fit combat grab and certain strike in, I needed a 1-action open, of which the only one was 'strike'." (Certain Strike is amazing with a forceful weapon.)

Certainly some opening attacks should be 2 actions, but assuredly not all of them should.

That’s actually a fair point on both accounts. Certain Strike with Forceful does sound pretty nice. I don’t think PA will be very popular with One Handed weapons anymore which is a nice thing, but i can definitely see your issue with 2 action openers. Admittedly Sudden Charge -> Combat Grab would seem to work well, but i can see that getting pretty dull and not synergizing well with other builds.

I’m not sure how they’d balance 1 action openers, but i’m willing to jump onboard that idea.


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In one of the updates during the playtest "release your grip with 1 hand" was made into a free action, which made dual-handed assault pretty weak- essentially all the feat does compared to what anyone can do without a feat is "increases the damage die or adds +2 damage."

It seems like something like that could work as a 1-action open. Having a 1-action open add like 2-6 damage, include no movement, and explicitly not interfere with the rest of your stuff seems fine.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you can combine that with brutal strike at 12th which
adds a die that would be 3 extra die one from brutal strike at 12 and 2 from powe attack at 10th. So that is for dice and 8 on crit. At least I think it would be. Not sure if you can combine the two. If not power attack is die weapon then 2 from power attack for 3 die and 6 on crit. Brutal finish is an extra die with no penalty and strength bonus for damage on miss. So that would be 2 dice and 4 on crit.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Well, the issue I had with opening strikes was largely "If I wanted to fit combat grab and certain strike in, I needed a 1-action open, of which the only one was 'strike'." (Certain Strike is amazing with a forceful weapon.)

Certainly some opening attacks should be 2 actions, but assuredly not all of them should.

I'm currently wondering whether they changed Certain Strike or Forceful for the final CRB. The interaction between them made them by far the highest damage option at high levels in the playtest, where a Fighter with haste and the one feat that let your trade a reaction for an additional press attack could potentially: Move, Strike, Certain Strike, Certain Strike, Certain Strike.

It was far and away the most dangerous thing you could be doing as a fighter. Think 2x to 2.5x the amount of damage per round than any other feat/weapon combo.


Dave2 wrote:

If you can combine that with brutal strike at 12th which

adds a die that would be 3 extra die one from brutal strike at 12 and 2 from powe attack at 10th. So that is for dice and 8 on crit. At least I think it would be. Not sure if you can combine the two. If not power attack is die weapon then 2 from power attack for 3 die and 6 on crit. Brutal finish is an extra die with no penalty and strength bonus for damage on miss. So that would be 2 dice and 4 on crit.

Unless they changed Brutal Strike you can’t stack it with PA. BS is a press ability that acts like a mini PA.

@Cellion - It’s possible they didn’t need to change them. They’ve talked about adjusting the numbers so they don’t end up being so narrow and Proficiency Modifiers have been confirmed to have been upped from what they were originally in the PT.

Liberty's Edge

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Mark Seifter wrote:
Classes with solid heavy armor proficiencies, such as fighter and champion, will not skimp on proficiency with the lighter armors.

So happy about this. Favorite pfs character of the past decade was a dervish style paladin of Sarenrae. Glad to see that might be possible out of the box

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Classes with solid heavy armor proficiencies, such as fighter and champion, will not skimp on proficiency with the lighter armors.

Yay!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Does the fighter have access to the focus spell mechanic other classes have? because some focus based special moves would be cool.


Davido1000 wrote:
Does the fighter have access to the focus spell mechanic other classes have? because some focus based special moves would be cool.

Doesn't look like it. They get stances and special strikes.


Davido1000 wrote:
Does the fighter have access to the focus spell mechanic other classes have? because some focus based special moves would be cool.

I think that not by default, you would need to multiclass or get an archetype for that.

From what we know for now only Spellcasters, Monk(if they want) and Champion have with Ranger being a big incognito if they have the option in the core book or not.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Stances and special strikes work for me. If want something else from another class can use the multi class archetype for that class. Barbarian for rage for example.

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