Know Direction 201 Revelations.


Second Edition

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Captain Morgan wrote:

All 5 gnome heritages awwww snap

Chameleon gnome: let's you change your hair to suit your mood, blending ing .

Fey Touched gnome: casts a primal cantrip. Gives you a stronger tie to nature.

Sensing gnome: Keen sense of vision and smell, bonus to perception checks to find things they can't see.

Umbral Gnome: Dark vison.

Wellspring Gnome: connection to different source of magic, gets a cantrip from occult, divine, or arcane.

8 HP for gnome, speed is still 25, ability boosts and flaws are the same.

Gnome feats sounded pretty much like what we had in the playtest, at least for 1st level choices. Cantrips, familiar, burrow speech, fey connection, illusion sense, weapon familiarity.

Awesome unless Umbral Gnome = Svirfneblin and we're back to the problematic lore implications we saw in the playtest. Some of the heritages could use the rarity rules applied to them!


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Over in Oblivion Oath the Champion of Pharasma just recovered focus by laying out bodies and conducting funeral rites because it was so tied to her faith, so I think we can confirm that suspicion as well.

Doktor Weasel wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

All 5 gnome heritages awwww snap

Chameleon gnome: let's you change your hair to suit your mood, blending ing .

Fey Touched gnome: casts a primal cantrip. Gives you a stronger tie to nature.

Sensing gnome: Keen sense of vision and smell, bonus to perception checks to find things they can't see.

Umbral Gnome: Dark vison.

Wellspring Gnome: connection to different source of magic, gets a cantrip from occult, divine, or arcane.

8 HP for gnome, speed is still 25, ability boosts and flaws are the same.

Gnome feats sounded pretty much like what we had in the playtest, at least for 1st level choices. Cantrips, familiar, burrow speech, fey connection, illusion sense, weapon familiarity.

Sounds like the cleaned up one of the heritage problems. No longer has that incentive for all gnomes to be Sniviblin or Bleechlings. But now Umbral Gnome will be the popular one, which at least isn't tied to something that's supposed to be rare on the surface. Chameleon is the most flavorful, but probably least mechanically useful.

I dunno, a flat bonus to stealth checks seems like a pretty sweet edge for those interested in being sneaky. Admittedly, dark vision is also great for those interested in being sneaky.


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Captain Morgan wrote:

Over in Oblivion Oath the Champion of Pharasma just recovered focus by laying out bodies and conducting funeral rites because it was so tied to her faith, so I think we can confirm that suspicion as well.

Doktor Weasel wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

All 5 gnome heritages awwww snap

Chameleon gnome: let's you change your hair to suit your mood, blending ing .

Fey Touched gnome: casts a primal cantrip. Gives you a stronger tie to nature.

Sensing gnome: Keen sense of vision and smell, bonus to perception checks to find things they can't see.

Umbral Gnome: Dark vison.

Wellspring Gnome: connection to different source of magic, gets a cantrip from occult, divine, or arcane.

8 HP for gnome, speed is still 25, ability boosts and flaws are the same.

Gnome feats sounded pretty much like what we had in the playtest, at least for 1st level choices. Cantrips, familiar, burrow speech, fey connection, illusion sense, weapon familiarity.

Sounds like the cleaned up one of the heritage problems. No longer has that incentive for all gnomes to be Sniviblin or Bleechlings. But now Umbral Gnome will be the popular one, which at least isn't tied to something that's supposed to be rare on the surface. Chameleon is the most flavorful, but probably least mechanically useful.
I dunno, a flat bonus to stealth checks seems like a pretty sweet edge for those interested in being sneaky. Admittedly, dark vision is also great for those interested in being sneaky.

Heck, a free cantrip isn't bad thing either. They all seem pretty useful.


Captain Morgan wrote:

Over in Oblivion Oath the Champion of Pharasma just recovered focus by laying out bodies and conducting funeral rites because it was so tied to her faith, so I think we can confirm that suspicion as well.

Which brings up does a cleric of sarenrae regain focus by spending ten minutes treating wounds with medicine? I kind of doubt that but it would make since for a devotee of a god of healing. Maybe that should be a skill feat or something.

Liberty's Edge

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Bardarok wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Over in Oblivion Oath the Champion of Pharasma just recovered focus by laying out bodies and conducting funeral rites because it was so tied to her faith, so I think we can confirm that suspicion as well.

Which brings up does a cleric of sarenrae regain focus by spending ten minutes treating wounds with medicine? I kind of doubt that but it would make since for a devotee of a god of healing. Maybe that should be a skill feat or something.

That certainly seemed to be what was happening in the fiction with Kyra. Seems reasonably balanced to me.

Liberty's Edge

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Or a cleric of Urgathoa eating copious amounts for 10 minutes, or a cleric of Cayden toasting the party and/or having bar-game style fun. Would a cleric of Desna be able to count exploring/traveling through a new area, one wonders? The rare cleric of the Lantern King (Eldest) gets their focus back while concocting a particularly lengthy prank on a fellow party member...

I know those all seem tongue-in-cheek but I'm genuinely curious, I kind of love the idea for all of them being able to represent something for their faith and count as prayer. Honestly the Desna one's the only one that makes me hesitate.

Liberty's Edge

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kaineblade83 wrote:

Or a cleric of Urgathoa eating copious amounts for 10 minutes, or a cleric of Cayden toasting the party and/or having bar-game style fun. Would a cleric of Desna be able to count exploring/traveling through a new area, one wonders? The rare cleric of the Lantern King (Eldest) gets their focus back while concocting a particularly lengthy prank on a fellow party member...

I know those all seem tongue-in-cheek but I'm genuinely curious, I kind of love the idea for all of them being able to represent something for their faith and count as prayer. Honestly the Desna one's the only one that makes me hesitate.

If it were me I'd rule you could pray to Desna by exploring...but only by focusing fairly completely on the wonders around you (ie: no sneaking, Follow The Expert, or other Exploration Mode tactics more complicated than walking on its own).


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I think the things that were previously deific obediences are appropriate models for refocus prayers. For Desna I would lean more "stargazing" than "exploring" though.

Liberty's Edge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think the things that were previously deific obediences are appropriate models for refocus prayers. For Desna I would lean more "stargazing" than "exploring" though.

This is fair. I'd probably allow more than one activity per deity, though (I'd count midwifery for Pharasma as well as funeral rights, and stargazing, napping, and exploring somewhere new would all count for Desna).


kaineblade83 wrote:

Or a cleric of Urgathoa eating copious amounts for 10 minutes, or a cleric of Cayden toasting the party and/or having bar-game style fun. Would a cleric of Desna be able to count exploring/traveling through a new area, one wonders? The rare cleric of the Lantern King (Eldest) gets their focus back while concocting a particularly lengthy prank on a fellow party member...

I know those all seem tongue-in-cheek but I'm genuinely curious, I kind of love the idea for all of them being able to represent something for their faith and count as prayer. Honestly the Desna one's the only one that makes me hesitate.

I would allow many activities assuming they fit with the deity and are not used to cheese some benefit out of it. As a rule of thumb: the activity should bring yourself or the party much mechanical benefit.

So a cleric of Sarenrae treating the wounds of some NPCs? That can be refocusing. The same cleric treating the wounds of the party's fighter after battle? Nope, that's you doing maintenance to go back to killing things.

Liberty's Edge

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masda_gib wrote:

I would allow many activities assuming they fit with the deity and are not used to cheese some benefit out of it. As a rule of thumb: the activity should bring yourself or the party much mechanical benefit.

So a cleric of Sarenrae treating the wounds of some NPCs? That can be refocusing. The same cleric treating the wounds of the party's fighter after battle? Nope, that's you doing maintenance to go back to killing things.

I disagree with this. This is a purely metagame consideration and deeply damaging to verisimilitude. I also don't think that Clerics mundanely treating people allowing them to regain Focus (basically the only time this would come up) is very mechanically relevant. The difference between a 10 minute break and a 20 minute break is just very rarely gonna matter.

So it's not even a particularly compelling metagame reason, IMO.


Do we know how many racial feats we get at level 1? Is it still 1 + heritage?


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Do we know how many racial feats we get at level 1? Is it still 1 + heritage?

Heritage is now separate element, and no longer a feat. (Basically, it's your "sub-ancestry"). But yes, you get your choice of Heritage, plus one 1st-level Ancestry feat.


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First World Bard wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Do we know how many racial feats we get at level 1? Is it still 1 + heritage?
Heritage is now separate element, and no longer a feat. (Basically, it's your "sub-ancestry"). But yes, you get your choice of Heritage, plus one 1st-level Ancestry feat.

I think ancestries now also have more things which are inherent and given to all people with that ancestry (like unburdened or darkvision.)

Liberty's Edge

PossibleCabbage wrote:
First World Bard wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Do we know how many racial feats we get at level 1? Is it still 1 + heritage?
Heritage is now separate element, and no longer a feat. (Basically, it's your "sub-ancestry"). But yes, you get your choice of Heritage, plus one 1st-level Ancestry feat.
I think ancestries now also have more things which are inherent and given to all people with that ancestry (like unburdened or darkvision.)

Darkvision was always inherent (as was Low Light Vision). We don't know about Unburdened, though Halflings do get superior vision for free so non-Darkvision stuff is possible.


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IIRC "Dwarves are hard to encumber" was not a popular thing when it was made into an ancestry (since it nonsensically implies dwarves from the desert, or dwarves of noble blood are somehow less good at carrying stuff). So it seems reasonable to give each ancestry an inherent genetic thing about your senses, and an inherent genetic thing about your frame.

So something like "Keen Senses" and "Sure Footed" for halflings, "Darkvision" and "Unburdened" for Dwarves, "Low Light Vision" and "Elven Immunities" for Elves, etc.

Liberty's Edge

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That would make sense, certainly, but they're definitely not going that far. We've seen the Halfling Ancestry page and they have the Keen Sight thing and nothing else.

Now, Dwarves might well still get Unburdened (so as to make up for their low Speed), but Elves are almost certainly not getting Elven Immunities (having one of the best chassis in the game already).

Silver Crusade

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
masda_gib wrote:

I would allow many activities assuming they fit with the deity and are not used to cheese some benefit out of it. As a rule of thumb: the activity should bring yourself or the party much mechanical benefit.

So a cleric of Sarenrae treating the wounds of some NPCs? That can be refocusing. The same cleric treating the wounds of the party's fighter after battle? Nope, that's you doing maintenance to go back to killing things.

I disagree with this. This is a purely metagame consideration and deeply damaging to verisimilitude. I also don't think that Clerics mundanely treating people allowing them to regain Focus (basically the only time this would come up) is very mechanically relevant. The difference between a 10 minute break and a 20 minute break is just very rarely gonna matter.

So it's not even a particularly compelling metagame reason, IMO.

This reminds me of the Deific Obediences in PF1, especially the good deities. Some requires one just to be nice (Erastil or Sarenrae for example), some had bits to do with the portfolio (Shelyn wants a peice of art or poetry, Kurgess like to see you hit the gym), but some were trivially easy. Desna's is wander around for a bit. Cayden's is have a beer and sing a song. Iomedae's is literally just pray with your sword, which you would be doing anyway, Paladins love doing that sort of stuff.

If this is the standard to regain focus, it's not difficult.

Evil gods on the other hand have much tougher rules (except Rovagug which is funny).

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think my personal favorite is digging a small hole in the ground and whispering a secret into it before filling it back in :P


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Midas has an asses ears.


Stone Dog wrote:
Midas has an asses ears.

I just watched a Ted-Ed on Midas, and that part of the story. Like for the somewhat more obscure detail of his story.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
masda_gib wrote:

I would allow many activities assuming they fit with the deity and are not used to cheese some benefit out of it. As a rule of thumb: the activity should bring yourself or the party much mechanical benefit.

So a cleric of Sarenrae treating the wounds of some NPCs? That can be refocusing. The same cleric treating the wounds of the party's fighter after battle? Nope, that's you doing maintenance to go back to killing things.

I disagree with this. This is a purely metagame consideration and deeply damaging to verisimilitude. I also don't think that Clerics mundanely treating people allowing them to regain Focus (basically the only time this would come up) is very mechanically relevant. The difference between a 10 minute break and a 20 minute break is just very rarely gonna matter.

So it's not even a particularly compelling metagame reason, IMO.

100% agree with this. I’d probably also allow a cleric of Nethys to regain focus from identifying magic items.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

The difference between a 10 minute break and a 20 minute break is just very rarely gonna matter.

So it's not even a particularly compelling metagame reason, IMO.

While I agree with your larger point, I do wonder if this is going to remain the case. The 10 minute break is going to be the new norm that defines the "work day" of a party, and I think adventures may be written with that in mind. For example, random encounter tables can be modified with it in mind. In particular, you could have them occur in a dungeon. For example, every 10 minute break could have a 10% chance of an enemy patrol coming by and finding you.

Not sure how often that card will be played, but it is fun to think about.


AnimatedPaper wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
masda_gib wrote:

I would allow many activities assuming they fit with the deity and are not used to cheese some benefit out of it. As a rule of thumb: the activity should bring yourself or the party much mechanical benefit.

So a cleric of Sarenrae treating the wounds of some NPCs? That can be refocusing. The same cleric treating the wounds of the party's fighter after battle? Nope, that's you doing maintenance to go back to killing things.

I disagree with this. This is a purely metagame consideration and deeply damaging to verisimilitude. I also don't think that Clerics mundanely treating people allowing them to regain Focus (basically the only time this would come up) is very mechanically relevant. The difference between a 10 minute break and a 20 minute break is just very rarely gonna matter.

So it's not even a particularly compelling metagame reason, IMO.

100% agree with this. I’d probably also allow a cleric of Nethys to regain focus from identifying magic items.

But isn't the sorcerer's ability to regain focus while doing other stuff becoming rather pointless if everyone can do other useful stuff while refocusing as well?

Sorcerers can do ANY other stuff, yes. But things like "healing the party after battle" and "identifying items" at higher levels are standard procedure, a cleric will do that always anyway.


masda_gib wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
masda_gib wrote:

I would allow many activities assuming they fit with the deity and are not used to cheese some benefit out of it. As a rule of thumb: the activity should bring yourself or the party much mechanical benefit.

So a cleric of Sarenrae treating the wounds of some NPCs? That can be refocusing. The same cleric treating the wounds of the party's fighter after battle? Nope, that's you doing maintenance to go back to killing things.

I disagree with this. This is a purely metagame consideration and deeply damaging to verisimilitude. I also don't think that Clerics mundanely treating people allowing them to regain Focus (basically the only time this would come up) is very mechanically relevant. The difference between a 10 minute break and a 20 minute break is just very rarely gonna matter.

So it's not even a particularly compelling metagame reason, IMO.

100% agree with this. I’d probably also allow a cleric of Nethys to regain focus from identifying magic items.

But isn't the sorcerer's ability to regain focus while doing other stuff becoming rather pointless if everyone can do other useful stuff while refocusing as well?

Sorcerers can do ANY other stuff, yes. But things like "healing the party after battle" and "identifying items" at higher levels are standard procedure, a cleric will do that always anyway.

"Everyone" being able to do stuff is a bit of a stretch in this discussion. All of the examples given here are pretty specific deity-based possibilities for Clerics.


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Edge93 wrote:
masda_gib wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
masda_gib wrote:

I would allow many activities assuming they fit with the deity and are not used to cheese some benefit out of it. As a rule of thumb: the activity should bring yourself or the party much mechanical benefit.

So a cleric of Sarenrae treating the wounds of some NPCs? That can be refocusing. The same cleric treating the wounds of the party's fighter after battle? Nope, that's you doing maintenance to go back to killing things.

I disagree with this. This is a purely metagame consideration and deeply damaging to verisimilitude. I also don't think that Clerics mundanely treating people allowing them to regain Focus (basically the only time this would come up) is very mechanically relevant. The difference between a 10 minute break and a 20 minute break is just very rarely gonna matter.

So it's not even a particularly compelling metagame reason, IMO.

100% agree with this. I’d probably also allow a cleric of Nethys to regain focus from identifying magic items.

But isn't the sorcerer's ability to regain focus while doing other stuff becoming rather pointless if everyone can do other useful stuff while refocusing as well?

Sorcerers can do ANY other stuff, yes. But things like "healing the party after battle" and "identifying items" at higher levels are standard procedure, a cleric will do that always anyway.

"Everyone" being able to do stuff is a bit of a stretch in this discussion. All of the examples given here are pretty specific deity-based possibilities for Clerics.

True, but the point he brings up is the idea of it being a slippery slope. Right now it’s Cleric; but what about a Champion of the same faith? What about a Druid doing wilderness things? What about a Wizard identifying items? If not understood in its full context the discussion will quickly become, ‘Why can’t everyone do stuff while refocusing?’


To be clear: I'm not against everyone refocusing while doing other useful (and fitting) stuff. The important thing is the 10 minutes, to let focus spells be 1/encounter powers.

People then just shouldn't cry that the sorcerer is weak if they give the cool sorc abilities to everyone for free. :)


masda_gib wrote:

To be clear: I'm not against everyone refocusing while doing other useful (and fitting) stuff. The important thing is the 10 minutes, to let focus spells be 1/encounter powers.

People then just shouldn't cry that the sorcerer is weak if they give the cool sorc abilities to everyone for free. :)

Tomato Potato :P


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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Edge93 wrote:
masda_gib wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
masda_gib wrote:

I would allow many activities assuming they fit with the deity and are not used to cheese some benefit out of it. As a rule of thumb: the activity should bring yourself or the party much mechanical benefit.

So a cleric of Sarenrae treating the wounds of some NPCs? That can be refocusing. The same cleric treating the wounds of the party's fighter after battle? Nope, that's you doing maintenance to go back to killing things.

I disagree with this. This is a purely metagame consideration and deeply damaging to verisimilitude. I also don't think that Clerics mundanely treating people allowing them to regain Focus (basically the only time this would come up) is very mechanically relevant. The difference between a 10 minute break and a 20 minute break is just very rarely gonna matter.

So it's not even a particularly compelling metagame reason, IMO.

100% agree with this. I’d probably also allow a cleric of Nethys to regain focus from identifying magic items.

But isn't the sorcerer's ability to regain focus while doing other stuff becoming rather pointless if everyone can do other useful stuff while refocusing as well?

Sorcerers can do ANY other stuff, yes. But things like "healing the party after battle" and "identifying items" at higher levels are standard procedure, a cleric will do that always anyway.

"Everyone" being able to do stuff is a bit of a stretch in this discussion. All of the examples given here are pretty specific deity-based possibilities for Clerics.
True, but the point he brings up is the idea of it being a slippery slope. Right now it’s Cleric; but what about a Champion of the same faith? What about a Druid doing wilderness things? What about a Wizard identifying items? If not understood in its full context the discussion will quickly become, ‘Why can’t everyone do stuff while refocusing?’

Champions already can do it. This was exactly what happened in the Oblivion Oath episode. Karinna did some stuff with dead bodies, focus point back. Boom. Also, how is this a slippery slope? Clerics and Champions get their focus back because these specific activities are synonymous with praying and their powers come from a god. All that is flavor justification, but the real reason they can regain focus this way is because the rules say so. If the rules don't say the wizard can multi-task when they refocus, then the wizard can't multi-task.

If you want to ask why the rules shouldn't let the wizard get it back that way, then you can refer back to wizards having to study their spellbook to get magic, rather than show devotion to a god.

Druids are a weird edge case because "getting magic from nature" has never felt nearly as well defined. But I'd hazard a guess that if druids DO get this, it will be order specific. So a druid of the animal order might refocus while tending to or playing with their animal companion. The leaf order might be able to refocus by gathering herbs. And a druid of the wild order would refocus by being a ruff boi. None of them can just do "nature stuff" and call it a day.


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Captain Morgan wrote:

Champions already can do it. This was exactly what happened in the Oblivion Oath episode. Karinna did some stuff with dead bodies, focus point back. Boom. Also, how is this a slippery slope? Clerics and Champions get their focus back because these specific activities are synonymous with praying and their powers come from a god. All that is flavor justification, but the real reason they can regain focus this way is because the rules say so. If the rules don't say the wizard can multi-task when they refocus, then the wizard can't multi-task.

If you want to ask why the rules shouldn't let the wizard get it back that way, then you can refer back to wizards having to study their spellbook to get magic, rather than show devotion to a god.

Druids are a weird edge case because "getting magic from nature" has never felt nearly as well defined. But I'd hazard a guess that if druids DO get this, it will be order specific. So a druid of the animal order might refocus while tending to or playing with their animal companion. The leaf order might be able to refocus by gathering herbs. And a druid of the wild order would refocus by being a ruff boi. None of them can just do "nature stuff" and call it a day.

Well, first i’ll point out that i mentioned the discussion can devolve if the mechanic isn’t understood in its full context; this is kinda proving that.

All i was pointing out was the slippery slope of combining actions during 10 min rests. A Champion or a Cleric refocusing via prayer; cool. A Wizard refocusing by reading his book or something; cool. A Cleric refocusing while using treat wounds or a Wizard refocusing while identifying recently obtained magical loot; kinda cheesing.

Interestingly enough, you even quoted all of the comments that lead to this as well so i’m Not sure where the hang up is. Fluff wise refocus can be done any way the player imagines; combining refocus with another task is cheesy slip and slide. Until we have the full restrictions on how refocus works though it is somewhat moot.

Lantern Lodge

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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Champions already can do it. This was exactly what happened in the Oblivion Oath episode. Karinna did some stuff with dead bodies, focus point back. Boom. Also, how is this a slippery slope? Clerics and Champions get their focus back because these specific activities are synonymous with praying and their powers come from a god. All that is flavor justification, but the real reason they can regain focus this way is because the rules say so. If the rules don't say the wizard can multi-task when they refocus, then the wizard can't multi-task.

If you want to ask why the rules shouldn't let the wizard get it back that way, then you can refer back to wizards having to study their spellbook to get magic, rather than show devotion to a god.

Druids are a weird edge case because "getting magic from nature" has never felt nearly as well defined. But I'd hazard a guess that if druids DO get this, it will be order specific. So a druid of the animal order might refocus while tending to or playing with their animal companion. The leaf order might be able to refocus by gathering herbs. And a druid of the wild order would refocus by being a ruff boi. None of them can just do "nature stuff" and call it a day.

Well, first i’ll point out that i mentioned the discussion can devolve if the mechanic isn’t understood in its full context; this is kinda proving that.

All i was pointing out was the slippery slope of combining actions during 10 min rests. A Champion or a Cleric refocusing via prayer; cool. A Wizard refocusing by reading his book or something; cool. A Cleric refocusing while using treat wounds or a Wizard refocusing while identifying recently obtained magical loot; kinda cheesing.

Interestingly enough, you even quoted all of the comments that lead to this as well so i’m Not sure where the hang up is. Fluff wise refocus can be done any way the player imagines; combining refocus with another task is cheesy slip and slide. Until we have the full restrictions on how...

Life is full of kinda cheesing things.

"You need to take two trips in your car today, one to pick up milk, one to meet your brother at the bus stop"

"Cool, I'll grab the milk at the shop beside the bus stop and just make one trip"

"I feel you are kinda cheesing things by doing that..."

If its expressly within the purview of both things, I think little synergies are fine and make players feel smart for thinking of them.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
HidaOWin wrote:

Life is full of kinda cheesing things.

"You need to take two trips in your car today, one to pick up milk, one to meet your brother at the bus stop"

"Cool, I'll grab the milk at the shop beside the bus stop and just make one trip"

"I feel you are kinda cheesing things by doing that..."

If its expressly within the purview of both things, I think little synergies are fine and make players feel smart for thinking of them.

I 'm fine so long as it is part of the overall assumed balance. Like if one cleric can do it by treating wounds and another by identifying items, the first is obviously much better as it will come up after every combat while the latter might come up once a session or even more rarely.


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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Champions already can do it. This was exactly what happened in the Oblivion Oath episode. Karinna did some stuff with dead bodies, focus point back. Boom. Also, how is this a slippery slope? Clerics and Champions get their focus back because these specific activities are synonymous with praying and their powers come from a god. All that is flavor justification, but the real reason they can regain focus this way is because the rules say so. If the rules don't say the wizard can multi-task when they refocus, then the wizard can't multi-task.

If you want to ask why the rules shouldn't let the wizard get it back that way, then you can refer back to wizards having to study their spellbook to get magic, rather than show devotion to a god.

Druids are a weird edge case because "getting magic from nature" has never felt nearly as well defined. But I'd hazard a guess that if druids DO get this, it will be order specific. So a druid of the animal order might refocus while tending to or playing with their animal companion. The leaf order might be able to refocus by gathering herbs. And a druid of the wild order would refocus by being a ruff boi. None of them can just do "nature stuff" and call it a day.

Well, first i’ll point out that i mentioned the discussion can devolve if the mechanic isn’t understood in its full context; this is kinda proving that.

All i was pointing out was the slippery slope of combining actions during 10 min rests. A Champion or a Cleric refocusing via prayer; cool. A Wizard refocusing by reading his book or something; cool. A Cleric refocusing while using treat wounds or a Wizard refocusing while identifying recently obtained magical loot; kinda cheesing.

Interestingly enough, you even quoted all of the comments that lead to this as well so i’m Not sure where the hang up is. Fluff wise refocus can be done any way the player imagines; combining refocus with another task is cheesy slip and slide. Until we have the full restrictions on how...

I feel like there is a mistaken assumption that the rules on how you regain focus. Saying that you can use fluff reasons to basically to whatever while you refocus is entirely false, we know that every class will have given methods of refocusing. For example Wizard will most likely be studying their spellbook to refocus. You can't say "well it says my Wizard studies his spellbook but I'm going to flavor it as identifying this magic item so I can do that at the same time." That's not how fluff works. If you're not studying your spellbook you're not refocusing. Most GMs would let you reflavor it if you don't like that, but not to mechanical benefit.

Monks I believe have been said to have to meditate to refocus. Same deal there. Most classes will have a specific activity that precludes other activities. Sorcerers don't, and Clerics and Champions have a deific theme that sometimes results in a specific useful task being viable as refocus.

I understand the concept that there would be a slippery slope but the fact is even woth what we know so far it's pretty clear that there won't be wiggle room for a significant number of classes to cheese their refocusing.


Edge93 wrote:

I feel like there is a mistaken assumption that the rules on how you regain focus. Saying that you can use fluff reasons to basically to whatever while you refocus is entirely false, we know that every class will have given methods of refocusing. For example Wizard will most likely be studying their spellbook to refocus. You can't say "well it says my Wizard studies his spellbook but I'm going to flavor it as identifying this magic item so I can do that at the same time." That's not how fluff works. If you're not studying your spellbook you're not refocusing. Most GMs would let you reflavor it if you don't like that, but not to mechanical benefit.

Monks I believe have been said to have to meditate to refocus. Same deal there. Most classes will have a specific activity that precludes other activities. Sorcerers don't, and Clerics and Champions have a deific theme that sometimes results in a specific useful task being viable as refocus.

I understand the concept that there would be a slippery slope but the fact is even woth what we know so far it's pretty clear that there won't be wiggle room for a significant number of classes to cheese their refocusing.

Okay, it seems my point was completely misinterpreted somehow cause i agree with basically everything you just said. I didn’t know about Cleric and Champion having different options based on Diety so that actually clears up that possible mixup. I haven’t been able to keep up with O.O. so burying the dead just seemed like a fluff thing to me; it seems i was half right/half wrong. If you look at the original reply i gave to your post earlier it was just towards making those options too broad; which it sounded like the discussion was heading which was why i pointed out what i felt masda_gib was trying to convey. Granted masda said ‘useful roles’ specifically where i did not.

@HidaOWin - Cheesing isn’t about being efficient. It’s a term commonly used for borderline exploiting; or sometimes actually exploiting things. There is a reason cheesing tends to be seen as a negative thing pretty often. I have a player that likes to build Cheese characters; they aren’t effective characters, they’re usually rule exploits that technically work in a vacuum but wreak havoc in an average setting.


Another Know Direction with Jason Bulmahn, I will watch it later and post what I find interesting.


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I'm about halfway through. It is largely focused on design philosophy stuff, which is very interesting but doesn't spoil new mechanics. However, at about 1:01:30 they ask Stephen how identifying monsters works. The big change is you can use just about any sort of knowledge that you have (with some exceptions) but the ones keyed in closer to the monster have a better chance of success. So there traits the creature has that key you in on what knowledge checks are best suited to this.

This seems like a big improvement on the lack of guidance from the playtest.


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Also, we are probably going to see some unique feats as loot in Fall of Plaguestone.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
Also, we are probably going to see some unique feats as loot in Fall of Plaguestone.

Huh, that's an interesting reward. I wonder if they're bonus feats rewarded to the players, or they just unlock the option to take certain feats.


Mechalibur wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Also, we are probably going to see some unique feats as loot in Fall of Plaguestone.
Huh, that's an interesting reward. I wonder if they're bonus feats rewarded to the players, or they just unlock the option to take certain feats.

Well the character sheet does have a space for "Bonus feats" so I think it wouldn't be out of the question for that to become part of adventure design somewhere along the line. And it is no more overpowered than giving someone a really potent item for their level.


interesting. I haven't been able to listen bc the twitch app on my phone has been messing up (I like to stream the audio while walking). maybe I should actually sit down and listen at home ...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I agree, an extra feat doesn't sound too overpowered, especially if every player gets it.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Mechalibur wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Also, we are probably going to see some unique feats as loot in Fall of Plaguestone.
Huh, that's an interesting reward. I wonder if they're bonus feats rewarded to the players, or they just unlock the option to take certain feats.
Well the character sheet does have a space for "Bonus feats" so I think it wouldn't be out of the question for that to become part of adventure design somewhere along the line. And it is no more overpowered than giving someone a really potent item for their level.

I feel like the original GMG had something like being able to have a number of traits (limited to like ~3) that you gain from adventuring as a reward type thing (I guess sort of like PFS Boons but I dont know much about organised play) and you can choose which to keep if you gain too many. Maybe I'm just remembering something James Jacobs mentioned somewhere.

I wouldn't be surprised if something similar made it into the core game the sameway that hero points did. It makes sense to fully include some the variant rulea that were more popular in PF1 as the default in PF2 with options to remove them.


I hope that sorcerers' balance doesn't hinge upon being the only focus-user that can preform another action while the other focus users are refocusing.

I like the idea that clerics/paladin can have a nerfed variant of that, but specific to their god. It is thematic and can potentially streamline after combat rest, which I don't think is a bad thing.

I also think that it get you more invested in your particular deity's faith if what you are doing has mechanical significance. Any cleric can pray, I think show how preforming certain actions is one and the same as praying for certain gods is really impactful.

This may make some gods weaker or stronger, but I think it is a minor enough effect it shouldn't be game-breaking.


Had a question about changes in animal companion, the answer was that was mostly like 1.6 version of the playtest but they polished the different types of animal companion (like cats, bear and etc).


Captain Morgan wrote:

I'm about halfway through. It is largely focused on design philosophy stuff, which is very interesting but doesn't spoil new mechanics. However, at about 1:01:30 they ask Stephen how identifying monsters works. The big change is you can use just about any sort of knowledge that you have (with some exceptions) but the ones keyed in closer to the monster have a better chance of success. So there traits the creature has that key you in on what knowledge checks are best suited to this.

This seems like a big improvement on the lack of guidance from the playtest.

To add to this, this might explain how the item identification from Oblivion Oath worked too, and seems an acceptable compromise between only allowing certain skills and letting someone who can train animals get unfettered magic identification.


There was a mention on the new episode (202) about approximating the witch until it comes out

I am not sure if the primal fey sorcerer for Morgana was really a serious attempt as it was more about making a literary character than a “witch”

So I wonder what avenues could be used to approximate a witch in the meantime? There are obviously no hexes so it will never truly like the 1E witch .

I would say it would have to start with sorcerer as a spell book will never feel right for a witch . Perhaps druid. Or perhaps one of the bard muses will be more deceptive ?


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why no hexes? they could be special cantrips like the bards performance


As in we currently don't have hexes, not that there never will be.


Seisho wrote:
why no hexes? they could be special cantrips like the bards performance

Oh I am sure they will be

But what I was saying is that there aren’t any right now.

And in the podcast they were suggesting you could make a proxy witch until they make a real one in the system . Any proxy witch wouldn’t have hexes yet


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If you can ignore the flavor of the spellbook, a wizard with a familiar feels preeeetty close. Cantrips and Focus powers come pretty close to approximating the spammable nature of Hexes, especially if we get some debuff focused options.

The spellbook vs familiar thing is significant, but mechanically is likely to never actually matter.

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